Felix Culpa Alpha - Fall Further modmodmod (feedback please!)

[apotheoser]

Edit: Updated with second attempt.

• 2 starting civics in each category (except foreign policy)
• DOVIELLO ARE BACK IN (fabre and coal are out until i finished them in their own right)
• Civics got rebalanced quite a bit, and moved around a bit
• Real CoE only civic got added, which allows you to build the HQ for the CoE corporation that ALSO got added
• Arete is more arete-ish
• Added a to-do list in 2nd post (see second post)

-----------------original post-----------------

So after many false starts, I've actually got a somewhat recognizable and playable mod for FF. I've attached the XML and python here (although the python literally changes 1 file), as there are no .dll changes (yet).

I'd really appreciate some feedback on thoughts on the Civics. I added a new category, added unique civics for every religion, and generally radically rebalanced things. Some of it will probably be controversial but that's why I made this thread; I'd like to see what people think and why.

(Edit: Yes, the pedia and strategy entries are not complete for each civic.)

Other things you might notice: Doviello are temporarily gone, replaced by a civ called the Fabre. They're not really done yet. If you're curious, they're sort of based on New Crobuzon from China Mieville's Bas-Lag novels. They're pretty evil, imperialistic, and steampunky. (By the way, if anyone knows how I could make Ironclad link to the Ironclad model and art from vanilla BtS, please let me know. I don't understand the art system yet). But as I said, they're not done or balanced so don't worry about them. Their corporation is sort of messed up too.

Also, state names are temporarily broken while I re-work them for the new civics.

Also, there is a new bonus: coal. It's probably too prevalent, and it's sort of tied up with the Fabre, but it doesn't really do much besides make a lot of hammers for the Fabre Punishment Factory. Again, don't worry about it.

I'm sure several other things are broken at the moment as well, but you should be able to play through a game with the new civics without any problems.

This is all based on patch Z of FfH2 and Fall Further 050 Patch with Malakim+ included at this point.

 

[apotheoser]

Stuff yet to do, for next update:

• Make Great Generals work from combat experience again (someone please tell me what makes these work, I really don't know)
• Increase the size of the whole civics screen so that it's more readable (done)
• Make sure each civilization has the appropriate starting civics
• Make sure each leader has the appropriate favorite civic
• Make CoE-civic explain that it allows the Shadow Throne wonder
• Make HoE (CoE corp) art work on World Map city bars
• Fix StateNames for new civics
• Fix pedia and strategy entries for each civic
• As always, balance civics

Entirely different tasks for the future:

• Fabre civ
• Wonder HQs for corporations, perhaps
• More resources
• Better boats
• Add Doviello+
• New events as appropriate for new civics and corporations
• Update everything patch N (or whatever letter FF is on at that point)

 

[Valkrionn]

I'll give this a try once I'm done with my current game... Got a question though. Why'd you replace the Doviello, rather than add a new civ?

 

[apotheoser]

I'll give this a try once I'm done with my current game... Got a question though. Why'd you replace the Doviello, rather than add a new civ?

Mainly because I liked War Machine for the Fabre hero. But also I didn't want to add something in, when I could be fairly sure modding an existing civ would be more likely to work. And I picked Doviello for the same reasons Doviello+ is being made: I didn't think I would miss Doviello. They sort of suck right now. At some point I'll add Doviello+ in.

 

[Deon]

It would be easier to make a new civ from the start than to add something that is already in again -.- . I mean, why do you need so much work incorporating back something you removed by yourself? Just add another civ. Also I don't see how good current Doviello personalities are for your civilization.

 

[apotheoser]

It would be easier to make a new civ from the start than to add something that is already in again -.- . I mean, why do you need so much work incorporating back something you removed by yourself? Just add another civ. Also I don't see how good current Doviello personalities are for your civilization.

The leaders were changed too... they have nothing to do with the Doviello.

Just don't worry about it, it's not even done. I'm more interested in feedback on the civics.

 

[Valkrionn]

Just loaded it up, going to go over the civics.

First off, I noticed that your first Legalism civic gave a benefit... I'd say go ahead and add some effects to the other initial civics.

Had to break the post up, got too big. One for each section, then.

You have no idea how long it took to type this up.

Government:

Depotism: Starting civic. I suggest adding an effect, I'll post something later as I think of it.

• Low Upkeep

Godking: Seems reasonable. Less maintenance, but no religion, which fits the civic.

• Medium Upkeep
• +25% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
• No State Religion
• +2 per Non-State Religion
• +50%/ in Capital
• +4 from Palace.
• No Non-State Religion Spread

Aristocracy: Doesn't seem unbalanced, aside from the xp... Might need to be toned down, fine at first glance though.

• Low Upkeep
• +25% Maintenance Costs from Distance to Palace.
• New Units receive +3 xp
• +2 , +2 from Citadel.
• +1 from Archery Range
• +2 from Jousting Tilt

Theocracy: Seems perfectly fine to me.

• High Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• +1 in Cities with State Religion
• Cities with State Religion train Units 10% faster, construct Buildings 25% faster.
• No Non-State Religion spread.

Republic: Think this one is the same as FF

• Medium Upkeep
• +20%
• Elections
• Period between civic change is longer

Thalassocracy: Not sure about the food, but otherwise matches what I picture.

• Low Upkeep
• Unlimited Bard
• +25% of trade route yield as
• +100%
• +2 from Asylum
• Requires Octopus Overlords.

 

[Valkrionn]

Cultural Values:

Prudence: Starting civic. Same as Despotism.

• Low Upkeep

Fortune and Glory: I take it you readded GGs? Not sure why 0 free units show up, either.... Other than that, sounds fine.

• Medium Upkeep
• +50%
• +100% Great General Emergence
• +0 free units?
• -25% War

Scholarship: Seems a bit powerful.... Don't really see much reason to use anything else. Maybe tone down the happiness?

• High Upkeep
• Unlimited Sage
• +20% War
• +15%
• +1 per Specialist
• +1 from Mage Guild
• +1 from Alchemy Lab
• +1 from Library
• +2 from Academy

Sacrifice the Weak: Not sure how this one changed.

• No Upkeep
• -20%
• +4 :unhealth:
• +10%
• Can Sacrifice Population
• 1.50 consumed per population
• Requires Ashen Veil

Arete: I think the should be changed to something else... Seems to be OO's thing.

• Medium Upkeep
• +20% in cities with State Religion
• +2 per specialist
• +2, +2 from Workshop
• Requires Runes of Kilmorph

Justice: Seems fine.

• Medium Upkeep
• Penalty for Civs without Justice.
• +20% in all cities
• Modifies alignment by +50.

Duty: This one is a major change, but personally I like it... They already get infinite happiness from their High Priests.

• High Upkeep
• No Distance to Capital Maintenance
• No Number of City Maintenance
• +1 from Basilica
• +1 from Courthouse
• Requires Order

Traditions: Don't think this one changed.

• Medium Upkeep
• -75% Number of Cities Maintenance
• +0.50 per Stationed Military Unit
• -35% War
• +1 from Walls
• Requires Jotnar

Kleon: Haven't played them in long enough that I don't remember if this changed either, besides the name.

• High Upkeep
• Unlimited Bard, Engineer
• -25% War
• No Non-State Religion Spread
• +100%
• +1 in 4 Largest Cities
• Requires Scions of Patria

 

[Valkrionn]

Labor:

Tribalism: Initial Civic. Same comment as the others.

• Low Upkeep

Slavery: Seems fine.

• Medium Upkeep
• Workers Build Improvements 50% Faster
• +1 from Mine, Quarry
• Modifies alignment by -100
• 25% Chance to create Slave

Guilds: Not sure if the gold balances the trade routes here... Kind of underwhelming.

• Medium Upkeep
• No Foriegn Trade
• +2 per specialist

Caste System: Seems fine to me.

• Medium Upkeep
• -25%
• New Units gain 2xp
• Workers Build Improvements 25% Faster
• -75% War
• -1 in 4 Largest Cities

Artisan Collectives: Not sure how this changed besides the name.

• Medium Upkeep
• +50% War
• +1 , +1 , +1 from Watermill
• +2 , +1 from Lumbermill
• +1 , +1 from Windmill

Blood and Sacrifice: Don't think it changed.

• No Upkeep
• Workers Build Improvements 50% Faster
• Can Sacrifice Population
• Modifies Alignment by -16
• Requires Cualli

 

[Valkrionn]

Economy:

Decentralization: Initial Civic, See above.

• Low Upkeep

Agriculture: I'm actually perfectly okay with the reduced hammers. Fits, reduces it's power nicely.

• Low Upkeep
• +1
• -15%
• +1 from Farm

Conquest: Same with this... Conquest is for just that, so reducing hammers for all but military units is fine by me.

• Low Upkeep
• +30% Military Unit Production
• Military Units Produced with
• -10%

Mercantilism: Don't think this one changed.

• High Upkeep
• +1 Free Specialist per City
• +1 Trade Route
• No Foreign Trade
• +20%

Free Trade: This could be a bit much. I'd actually prefer the great people moved to guilds, as I think it fits better.

• Low Upkeep
• Unlimited Priest, Bard, Sage, Merchant, Engineer
• +75% War
• +1 Trade Route
• -20%
• +1 Trade Route in Coastal Cities

Guardian of Nature: Don't think it changed.

• High Upkeep
• +5
• -10% Military Unit Production
• +2 from Grove
• +.5 from Jungle, Forest
• +.75 from Ancient Forest
• Requires Fellowship of Leaves

 

[Valkrionn]

Foriegn Policy:

Overcouncil: Why was this not limited to Empy, when it's opposite is limited to CoE?

• No Upkeep
• Modifies Alignment +25

Undercouncil: Not sure about this at all. I'd rather see a new CoE civic than limit the Undercouncil.

• No Upkeep
• Modifies Alignment -25
• Requires Council of Esus

Crusade: I love that you moved this here.

• High Upkeep
• 0 Free Units
• -75% War
• +2 in Cities with State Religion
• Cities with State Religion Train Units 25% Faster
• Must be at War
• Requires Bannor
• No diplomacy with enemies.

Lost Lands: This one I think might want to be toned down, as it's a huge economy booster, especially being able to choose Mercantilism with it.

• High Upkeep
• +20% Distance/Number of Cities Maintenance
• +2 Trade Routes
• No Foriegn Trade
• +50% , , -50% from Trade Routes
• +1 , , -2 from Town.
• -1 from Village
• +0.50 from Jungle

 

[Valkrionn]

Legal:

Barbarism: This right here is why I want effects on other initial civics.

• Low Upkeep
• +0.25 from Stationed Military Units

Vassalage: The commerce looks odd to me, as the Capital bonus just negates the negative... I'd suggest making the bonus 30-40%.

• Low Upkeep
• Can Draft 2 units per turn
• -20% in all cities
• +20% in Capital

Imperial Free Cities: Seems fine to me.

• Low Upkeep
• +3
• +1 Free Specialist per City
• +3 in 4 Largest Cities

Bureaucracy: Was waiting for the gold production civic. Seems fine to me.

• High Upkeep
• +1 from Town
• Can Spend Gold to Finish Production

Emancipation: This one came off very strong, until the Military unhappiness sank in. All in all, I like it.

• Low Upkeep
• +100%
• 0.25 per Stationed Military Unit
• +3 per Non-State Religion
• +10% , ,
• Modifies Alignment by +50
• Requires Empyrean

Tribal Law: Don't think this changed.

• Low Upkeep
• -75% Number of Cities Maintenance.
• -5% ,
• Requires Chislev

 

[Milaga]

Arete: I think the should be changed to something else... Seems to be OO's thing.

• Medium Upkeep
• +20% in cities with State Religion
• +2 per specialist
• +2, +2 from Workshop
• Requires Runes of Kilmorph

I haven't had a chance to play this yet, but this did make for interesting reading. I like a lot of your ideas, Apotheoser, but this one sticks out a lot. Arete is about taking resources out of the earth. I don't think losing the + from mining is right for this civ, and the workshop bonus seems rather high and out of flavor. And as Valkrionn says, the bonus also seems out of place.

I really like the God-King changes you made. Personally I think that civics made available in the early game should be good for the early game but bad for the later game. In general. Obviously this should change from civ to civ, but the concept of a "God-King" should eventually prove very troublesome for a civ spanning multiple continents -- unless of course it's in the civ's nature to worship their own personal god-king.

Emancipation looks interesting. On the surface it seems to blow the old Religion civic away. With Empyrean you don't need to station all your units in a city though since a) you can see everything coming a mile away and b) you can have a perimeter of radiant guard slowing everything down. So I don't really see any downside to this civic. I always loved running an Empy+Religion combo anyway. So much happiness ...

I'll take a closer look at the rest of them and how they work together this week.

EDIT: Ooh ... ooh ... +1 per specialist might be a nice touch instead of the +2.

 

[apotheoser]

First I should say I definitely want to do something with the other starting civics. I'll be looking at that more.

Councils: I expected the Council things to be somewhat controversial. The main problem I saw was that Undercouncil was sort of overpowered compared to Overcouncil. One gives a +6 relations boost, which is nice but not as nice as spamming Great Sages.

Another change you don't see right away is that I made Undercouncil votes work like the Apostolic Palace; it's based on % of Council population, while Overcouncil is still just 1 per civilization. Also, you get double votes for having CoE as state religion. (Edit: which I just realized is STUPID because you have to have CoE state religion in the first place. Doh!)

The main motivation was that I rarely ever see anyone go CoE state religion. Maybe I've missed something about it, but it seems to have the least popularity. But maybe the problem is the Hero, not the other effects? So I thought if you wanted to get the really good council effects (free Sages, Nightwatchmen, lots of trade, extra building) you should have to go CoE religion. Whereas the Overcouncil would be open to anyone but not as useful.

(I wasn't too worried about Crusade going to Foreign Policy. Because if Crusade + Overcouncil was always in danger of Global Civic Liberty, which cut off Crusade, so you didn't even want to do that anyway!)

But, if Undercouncil isn't strong enough to justify CoE-specific, we could always add new vote options to Undercouncil to, in effect, make it stronger. Or, we could come up with a CoE specific building (besides Smuggler's Port). Buildings actually allow a lot more flexibility in effect than civics, I've noticed.

Civ-specific civics: Something else I should have mentioned: I didn't change any of the civ-specific Civics, except moving categories and renaming Glory to Kleon (Greek for 'glory', more or less) so that I could call another civic "Fortune and Glory". So Lost Lands probably is overpowered, but I haven't looked at it at all; it is Mazatl only. Republic is also the same as regular FF.

Industry/Artisan Collectives:Artisan Collectives was actually boosted a lot in effect but also got the large war penalty. Under Artisan Collectives, Windmills might be too powerful. Lumbermills in Forests on Hills might also be too strong. Watermills as well, not really sure.

Aristocracy: The Citadel bonus bugs me. It seems like half-worthless, because who is going to build a fort and grow it just for that? Or will people spam forts? But then they're only useful in that civic. Is it too big or too little? Or is the whole idea stupid?

Arete: Arete is tricky. The problem is that I would like it to be + per specialist, but that functionality is not in the game. You can only do types of commerce; , , or . I sort of interpret arete differently from the way its presented in vanilla FfH2; mainly I see the emphasis on transforming the raw materials of the earth in to excellent pieces of craftsmanship, not just mining the raw stuff. Also Workshops needed some love I thought, and that seemed like the place people should do the crafting. But overall Arete does seem underpowered compared to other religion-specific civics. Here again, maybe the answer is a special Arete-specific building.

Vassalage: As for Vassalage, I didn't really want there to be a commerce bonus anyway, just a penalty that was not in the capital so it didn't as much for a small-medium empire, but late in the game would be tougher. The # of units drafted depends on map size, I think, so for a standard map you can get 5. I think it seems like a civic you would only use for a limited time; switch to Vassalage, draft units, switch away from Vassalage. Is that a bad thing?

Sacrifice the Weak: The only change: pop-rushing was moved from Slavery to Ashen Veil. So there's only two ways to pop rush: Ashen Veil or be Cualli (and Cualli are agnostic anyway). So every other agnostic civ just lost the ability to pop rush. I don't know how I feel about that. Slavery isn't limited from Good leaders anymore either. Might mess up the whole balance a lot.

Guilds: Guilds is definitely underwhelming, but might actually be really good. I look at it every time and go "wow that's not much" but then I consider how that gold will actually stack up. A Great Priest brings in +5, so 2 per every specialist (including just Citizens!) is actually sort of a lot, especially if you're running a specialist economy in other ways.

But maybe it does need something more. As for adding "unlimited specialists" to Guilds, I know that is what people usually think, but it's totally the opposite of what Guilds really did (and still do). The point of a guild is to limit the number of people in a profession, not increase it. If the only way to learn to be a blacksmith is in the blacksmith's guild, but they only take 1 person more a year, there will only be 1 more blacksmith a year. This is good for the blacksmiths, of course: fewer other blacksmiths means only the best blacksmiths will be blacksmiths, but also that the blacksmiths can charge higher prices. Adam Smith talks a lot about this in Wealth of Nations. We still have guilds in real life for doctors and lawyers. It's HARD to be a doctor or lawyer; we don't have "unlimited".

Free Trade: Might be overpowered, yes, since it's basically old Guilds+old Foreign Trade. I don't know how much the war weariness would hurt, though, especially if you stack it with other war weariness penalties. But maybe remove some trade routes. Other solution: buff other Economy civics. For example, what if Mercantilism gave + from trade route yield too? Sort of like Lost Lands, I guess.

Emancipation: Yeah, the military unhappiness is really weird and I don't know how it'll work in practice. It makes defending your cities in war really hard, since a huge stack defending from a SoD could really hurt the city. It might not be much of a penalty at .25 per unit. But keep in mind too it's Empyrean only, so it should be stronger than other Legal civics to some extent. But it might be overpowered actually. What if I removed the general +10% bonus to , or lowered it to 5%? Would it still be good enough?

Duty: Speaking of religion civics, I'm actually concerned that this one isn't strong enough. You already get -80% maintenance from Basilica+Courthouse, so the more Basilica and Courthouse you build, the less bonus there actually is from the Civic! (except the ). I don't know what to do with this one. Thoughts?

Fortune and Glory: Heh, that reminds me... Great Generals actually still broken. I haven't really figured out how to turn them back on. But when I do, that'll be part of the benefit, heh. The +0 free units is because it's 10% of your total population. So if you just start a new game and look at the civics, it'll say 0.

Scholarship: It is very good, but I was hoping the other cvics were equally good. I could definitely tone down either the or the overall bonus, or a little of each. Maybe only a 5% research bonus, or remove the Library ?

Thanks for your feedback so far guys, keep it coming. One thing I am interested in certain combinations. For example Imperial Free Cities gives +1 specialist, but so does Mercantilism. Is it ever too much to get +2 free specialists per city? It's sort of a lot! But then again Mercantilism is at the end of a tree, so it's not a frequent combination. Also I moved some of the tech requirements around (Aristo is Warfare, for example); so if anyone gets a chance to play a game with these civics it would probably generate a lot more comments. I understand that's a large time commitment though, so I still welcome anything people have.

 

[xienwolf]

If you understand how to link a UnitInfos entry to the ArtDef's, then you can just cut/paste the Ironclad ArtDef straight out of BtS into your files and it will work fine for you.

 

[apotheoser]

If you understand how to link a UnitInfos entry to the ArtDef's, then you can just cut/paste the Ironclad ArtDef straight out of BtS into your files and it will work fine for you.

You know I thought that but I must have done it wrong because the whole game crashes when I try that (CtD during startup). I'll give it another whirl later today.

 

[Milaga]

First, thanks to Valkrionn for putting this all on one page. Makes it a lot easier to see the synergies.

First I should say I definitely want to do something with the other starting civics. I'll be looking at that more.

What would be nice is if we had more choices in our starting civics. Two options for everyone from turn 1. Each of which has distinct advantages and disadvantages (or at least and advantage and disadvantage to choosing it over it's alternative.)

Councils: I expected the Council things to be somewhat controversial. The main problem I saw was that Undercouncil was sort of overpowered compared to Overcouncil. One gives a +6 relations boost, which is nice but not as nice as spamming Great Sages.

Another change you don't see right away is that I made Undercouncil votes work like the Apostolic Palace; it's based on % of Council population, while Overcouncil is still just 1 per civilization. Also, you get double votes for having CoE as state religion. (Edit: which I just realized is STUPID because you have to have CoE state religion in the first place. Doh!)

I like that Crusade was put here ... seems like when the Bannor is on a Crusade they really won't be heeding anything the Council tells them.

I like the vote change, although it really sounds more in flavor for the Overcouncil. Perhaps changing the possible resolutions the Overcouncil can have is better. It would be nice to have some really good ones that some civs will vehemently oppose (for no other reason than it makes it more difficult to pass them.) With population being important, you won't be able to be sure you pass these unless you're bigger than the naysayers or you are far enough in the game that Chalid and Teutorix come into play.

The main motivation was that I rarely ever see anyone go CoE state religion.

You're not ever supposed to see anyone go CoE, that's the point! Hee hee.

Seriously, the AI sucks rocks when playing CoE state religion.

Aristocracy: The Citadel bonus bugs me. It seems like half-worthless, because who is going to build a fort and grow it just for that? Or will people spam forts? But then they're only useful in that civic. Is it too big or too little? Or is the whole idea stupid?

It's a nice bit of flavor. Make it +1 for a castle and +2 for a citadel and it might give the AI a boost. Hopefully it won't make them spam more forts. Maybe even +1 per Citadel?

Arete: Arete is tricky. The problem is that I would like it to be + per specialist, but that functionality is not in the game. You can only do types of commerce; , , or . I sort of interpret arete differently from the way its presented in vanilla FfH2; mainly I see the emphasis on transforming the raw materials of the earth in to excellent pieces of craftsmanship, not just mining the raw stuff. Also Workshops needed some love I thought, and that seemed like the place people should do the crafting. But overall Arete does seem underpowered compared to other religion-specific civics. Here again, maybe the answer is a special Arete-specific building.

I always found Arete to be very powerful. A nice bonus to GP and +1 to all mines is a very strong bonus. Plus it's a very early civic the good guys can get that allows production rushes. I often find I have a hard time giving up Arete because of the rushing and production bonus until I've researched Guilds.

+1 per GP is nice. Maybe add +1 per workshop as well. Don't lose the production rushing.

Sacrifice the Weak: The only change: pop-rushing was moved from Slavery to Ashen Veil. So there's only two ways to pop rush: Ashen Veil or be Cualli (and Cualli are agnostic anyway). So every other agnostic civ just lost the ability to pop rush. I don't know how I feel about that. Slavery isn't limited from Good leaders anymore either. Might mess up the whole balance a lot.

Not sure how I feel about this. I think these two civics don't need such a drastic change.

Emancipation: Yeah, the military unhappiness is really weird and I don't know how it'll work in practice. It makes defending your cities in war really hard, since a huge stack defending from a SoD could really hurt the city. It might not be much of a penalty at .25 per unit. But keep in mind too it's Empyrean only, so it should be stronger than other Legal civics to some extent. But it might be overpowered actually. What if I removed the general +10% bonus to , or lowered it to 5%? Would it still be good enough?

The +10% is nice, but any less than that and it's not really worth it. The happiness, % bonus AND the doubling of GP production seems a bit much. I don't think the Empys should have the monopoly on GP production. Especially since Emancipation + Fortune and Glory = +150% GP. And if you're philosophical ... lets just hand the Altar Victory to the Elohim right now. I might cut this in half.

 

[Milaga]

You know I thought that but I must have done it wrong because the whole game crashes when I try that (CtD during startup). I'll give it another whirl later today.

I thought I understood this too. I was trying to copy and past some of the lizardmen models into the Cualli art. I can't stand that I've got a bonus to assassin production but my assassins don't have a tail, let alone scales! Just got CTDs.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I'll have to play it in my next game.


For theocracy...how about increasing building production(like organized religion in basic civ) and adding unhappiness for non-state religions?

 

[Vehem]

I thought I understood this too. I was trying to copy and past some of the lizardmen models into the Cualli art. I can't stand that I've got a bonus to assassin production but my assassins don't have a tail, let alone scales!

I'll have a play with the artwork for that when I next get chance... Was on my "to-do-list" when FF020 was released...

Of course - if anyone else feels the urge to try it... *cough*