Felix Culpa Alpha - Fall Further modmodmod (feedback please!)

To be perfectly honest, if not for the removal of the Doviello I'd probably play this modmodmod exclusively. Wouldn't have taken the time to write up the descriptions if I didn't like the ideas, after all. :lol: I love the majority of the civics, and the few issues I'm not sure about will likely be smoothed out with some playtesting/balancing. Very nice work here. :goodjob:
 
To be perfectly honest, if not for the removal of the Doviello I'd probably play this modmodmod exclusively. Wouldn't have taken the time to write up the descriptions if I didn't like the ideas, after all. :lol: I love the majority of the civics, and the few issues I'm not sure about will likely be smoothed out with some playtesting/balancing. Very nice work here. :goodjob:

Yeah, the removal of Doviello isn't intended, I'll put them back in.

Also... I had some really amazing ideas/elaborations that will take me a bit to finish implementing. Maybe tomorrow I'll post my next version, with extensions.

(I mean I think they're amazing, maybe everyone else will hate them though).

Edit2: Well, I hit a brick wall. Made a bit of a noob mistake in my modding; made too many changes I didn't keep track of and hit a CtD I couldn't fix. So I half-started over and the good news is I got the Doviello back in, so they're back from here on out. The whole Fabre thing will be a second, independent project after I finish civics.

Before I go to bed:

1. CoE is getting its own civic, not Undercouncil. I think a government civic right now, I have an interesting idea. It'll let you build a wonder that founds a corporation that is pretty much only used to spread to enemy cities, costing them money in maintenance, making you money, and generating negative resources for the enemy city (a BONUS_THING that gives :yuck:).
2. How does unlimited Engineers sound for Arete? Plus 1:culture:1:gold per specialist as well. I wanted to do :) from Peaks but I'm not sure it'll work. :lol:
3. Going to completely redo Emancipation (Empyrean civic), at least taking out the +100% GPP since there are too many other GPP bonuses. Maybe take out Justice and move it over since Cultural Values is sort of clogged as is.
4. Pretty sure I have 2 starting civics for every category now.
5. Guilds is getting the Workshop bonus that Arete used to have, but maybe slightly less.
6. Sort of worried that there will be too many civics overall. I'm going to try avoid making the frames larger and capping myself at the current size, just to make sure I have some limit. Although I would like to make the descriptions more readable in the Civics screen.

I've got all this on paper and some of it in XML, so tomorrow night perhaps, if I'm not too busy at work tomorrow.
 
Looking at

Godking: Seems reasonable. Less maintenance, but no religion, which fits the civic.
  • Medium Upkeep
  • +25% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
  • No State Religion
  • +2 :mad: per Non-State Religion
  • +50%:hammers:/:commerce: in Capital
  • +4 :) from Palace.

I was wondering how damaging the +2:mad: from Non-State religions would be. It seemed to lend itself well to an inquistion-style of play, but obviously inquisitors are solely divine units in the current version.

Then it occurred to me that it may be possible to add "No non-state religion spread" to the civic itself. Your holy servants (big guys with swords) would be adept at putting down upstart cults and prophets of other religions (preventing new ones appearing) but destroying an existing, widespread system of belief (one of the religions already in your city) would be beyond them, which is where the +2:mad: would kick in.

Basically it stops natural spread and foreign disciples from making the civic untenable, whilst making it so that you still couldn't play a religion based game, then suddenly decide "No actually - I'll be god instead" as your cities would already contain other religions...
 
Looking at

Godking: Seems reasonable. Less maintenance, but no religion, which fits the civic.
  • Medium Upkeep
  • +25% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
  • No State Religion
  • +2 :mad: per Non-State Religion
  • +50%:hammers:/:commerce: in Capital
  • +4 :) from Palace.

I was wondering how damaging the +2:mad: from Non-State religions would be. It seemed to lend itself well to an inquistion-style of play, but obviously inquisitors are solely divine units in the current version.

Then it occurred to me that it may be possible to add "No non-state religion spread" to the civic itself. Your holy servants (big guys with swords) would be adept at putting down upstart cults and prophets of other religions (preventing new ones appearing) but destroying an existing, widespread system of belief (one of the religions already in your city) would be beyond them, which is where the +2:mad: would kick in.

Basically it stops natural spread and foreign disciples from making the civic untenable, whilst making it so that you still couldn't play a religion based game, then suddenly decide "No actually - I'll be god instead" as your cities would already contain other religions...

Oh... nice. Yeah, if a rival with open borders can cripple your empire by spreading a 2-3 religions to your best cities, that's probably overpowered. At the same time, Godking is really hamstrung in the conquest department because they have no way to remove religion from conquered cities (without razing). So at the very least, no new spread is probably warranted, yeah.

Question: what happens if you try to found a religion under bNoNonStateReligionSpread? Does the religion not get founded or do you get the Holy City anyway?
 
Oh... nice. Yeah, if a rival with open borders can cripple your empire by spreading a 2-3 religions to your best cities, that's probably overpowered. At the same time, Godking is really hamstrung in the conquest department because they have no way to remove religion from conquered cities (without razing). So at the very least, no new spread is probably warranted, yeah.

Question: what happens if you try to found a religion under bNoNonStateReligionSpread? Does the religion not get founded or do you get the Holy City anyway?

I would imagine it will still found it - making researching other religions a bad move for a God-King. Fits pretty well still - best not to tell the people about alternatives...
 
I would imagine it will still found it - making researching other religions a bad move for a God-King. Fits pretty well still - best not to tell the people about alternatives...

Yeah, I agree. I went ahead and changed it to work as you suggested.
 
Justice should probably give a happiness boost as well as production IMO, possibly tied to courthouses, but not necessarily. People are more productive because they feel more secure (read:happy), aren't they?
 
A government civic I'd like to see and is sorely needed is Magocracy. Amurite, Kahd, Sheim, and Svartalfar (might be missing some) are all civs with arcane leaders and other govs don't touch on their arcane flavor.

Something like:

Magocracy: Available at Sorcery

  • High Upkeep
  • +10% :science:
  • +4 xp Arcane Units
  • +2 :gold:, +2 :culture:, +2 :hammers: per mana
  • -15% Military Production
  • +1 :) from Mage Guild/Wizard Hall
 
A government civic I'd like to see and is sorely needed is Magocracy. Amurite, Kahd, Sheim, and Svartalfar (might be missing some) are all civs with arcane leaders and other govs don't touch on their arcane flavor.

Something like:

Magocracy: Available at Sorcery

  • High Upkeep
  • +10% :science:
  • +4 xp Arcane Units
  • +2 :gold:, +2 :culture:, +2 :hammers: per mana
  • -15% Military Production
  • +1 :) from Mage Guild/Wizard Hall

I would do something like that but it turns out you can't do the interesting stuff (production from mana, xp just for adepts, etc) in the current civics setup. There aren't many good ways for a civic to interact with arcane flavor.

The other problem is that most of what you listed is already covered in Scholarship (the cultural value). It would be silly to have two very similar civics, even in different categories.
 
Justice should probably give a happiness boost as well as production IMO, possibly tied to courthouses, but not necessarily. People are more productive because they feel more secure (read:happy), aren't they?

ideally i would like it to be .5 :hammers: per :) but that functionality is not available right now.

i wrote this in the new pedia entry for Equal Justice, actually, but it's also that people know their property can't be arbitrarily taken away, so they work harder; it's not just the happy part.
 
So here's my new civics screen, specially tailored to make Lost Lands all fit on one screen with no scrollbar. Seriously Lost Lands has like infinity billion more effects than any other civic. My screen is sort of based on Rhye's.

The question I have is, do many people play with resolution smaller than 1280w? My screen just won't fit on anything smaller as is. I could make it smaller, or I think I could make it detect resolution and select a size.

Do enough people play with a smaller resolution than 1280w to make it worth it?
 

Attachments

Looking at

Godking: Seems reasonable. Less maintenance, but no religion, which fits the civic.
  • Medium Upkeep
  • +25% Maintenance Cost from Number of Cities
  • No State Religion
  • +2 :mad: per Non-State Religion
  • +50%:hammers:/:commerce: in Capital
  • +4 :) from Palace.

I was wondering how damaging the +2:mad: from Non-State religions would be. It seemed to lend itself well to an inquistion-style of play, but obviously inquisitors are solely divine units in the current version.

Then it occurred to me that it may be possible to add "No non-state religion spread" to the civic itself. Your holy servants (big guys with swords) would be adept at putting down upstart cults and prophets of other religions (preventing new ones appearing) but destroying an existing, widespread system of belief (one of the religions already in your city) would be beyond them, which is where the +2:mad: would kick in.

Basically it stops natural spread and foreign disciples from making the civic untenable, whilst making it so that you still couldn't play a religion based game, then suddenly decide "No actually - I'll be god instead" as your cities would already contain other religions...

Interesting bug: having "no state religion" and "no non-stage religion spread" does not prevent any religions from spreading at all. I just founded OO in my game and have successfully spread it all of my cities.

Edit: actually it might prevent anything but the first religion from spreading. I couldn't spread empyrean - 0/3 attempts. Not impossible but unlikely.
 
One thing to worry about is that there are three(well for the lizardmen, 2 for everyone else) different civics with no foreign trade(and not much otherwise -) in different lines, so you can get all 3 of those boosts for 1 loss. They synergize reasonably well, with +1 free specialist, +2 cash per specialist, and then all the free food for running more specialists from trade routes(and 3 extra trade routes).

I'd have to n'th the comment about arete keeping a mines bonus(or at least a hills bonus) for khazad and culture seeming off. Hmm, could you have it give a nice boost to chance of spawning new resources out of mines(on the order of 5-10 or more earth mana's worth)?

I have to agree that duty seems underwhelming to me as well. When I go order, I tend to stack law mana(you get one with the holy city at least) with the basilica's and courthouses, aiming for at least 90% reduction, perhaps 100%. It would break my current vampire strategy though, since I've been pushing for as dense city sprawl as possible, and with goveners manors only giving -20, they need more law mana to get up to that 90% level.

For Magocracy, you could add yields to the mana nodes on the ground perhaps? Having the various mana nodes give nice bonuses would be interesting(such as nature,water,life giving a good number of food(4-5), earth, creation giving hammers, air, force giving commerce).

Emancipation might still be a bit strong. I don't tend to keep more than 8 units per town(and can have the rest sit outside of town as a mobile defensive force). Thats balanced by a single non-state religion. Its pretty easy to spam yourself up to 3-4 non-state religions if you are going for a culture vic(20% culture boost on each temple), which would be an extra 7-10 happiness((9-12)-2).

More comments as I think of them :).
 
One thing to worry about is that there are three(well for the lizardmen, 2 for everyone else) different civics with no foreign trade(and not much otherwise -) in different lines, so you can get all 3 of those boosts for 1 loss. They synergize reasonably well, with +1 free specialist, +2 cash per specialist, and then all the free food for running more specialists from trade routes(and 3 extra trade routes).

Yeah, that's a concern I had as well. Although as a countervailing idea, I thought that perhaps it's ok because thematically they tend to make sense together. Historically, guilds were a driving force behind mercantilist policies. Guilds generally had monopolies on certain trades within their home lands.

As for the balance element, Guilds might be one of the weaker Labor civics, so I thought it was ok if the penalty wasn't as bad. I'm sort of worried that Artisan Collectives is overpowered, despite how late it comes in that tech tree.

But I should mention that as for Lost Lands, I haven't considered changing any of the civ-specific civics, mainly because I don't know enough about most of those civs to really make an informed change. I should say I think Lost Lands is ridiculously overpowered just at first glance.

I'd have to n'th the comment about arete keeping a mines bonus(or at least a hills bonus) for khazad and culture seeming off. Hmm, could you have it give a nice boost to chance of spawning new resources out of mines(on the order of 5-10 or more earth mana's worth)?

Well, the chance of spawning new resources isn't doable with the current functionality. The culture could definitely go and be replaced by something more worthwhile.

As for the mines thing, I'm sort of mixed about it because I think it would be a good bonus for Arete but the problem is that I think Slavery sort of needs the Mines bonus to make it worthwhile for something that isn't poprushing; I didn't like the idea of one of the earliest Labor civics being not available to Good. So I took poprushing off Slavery so that it wouldn't be as "Evil". Slavery was pretty much a universal fact of life before the 19th century, and it wasn't as bad as American plantation slavery was.

I have to agree that duty seems underwhelming to me as well. When I go order, I tend to stack law mana(you get one with the holy city at least) with the basilica's and courthouses, aiming for at least 90% reduction, perhaps 100%. It would break my current vampire strategy though, since I've been pushing for as dense city sprawl as possible, and with goveners manors only giving -20, they need more law mana to get up to that 90% level.

Yeah, I see this argument here. Although now you won't have to stack law mana. But I think a bigger problem this brings up is that there are generally far fewer ways to reduce maintenance with my civics than the original civics. I tried playing a small game as Lanun with my civics and the maintenance was absolutely killing me - although I was still winning, I was running science below 50% almost the whole time. So the maintenance removal is huge, although it should probably be spread around other civics and Duty be given something else. Maybe a military production bonus?

For Magocracy, you could add yields to the mana nodes on the ground perhaps? Having the various mana nodes give nice bonuses would be interesting(such as nature,water,life giving a good number of food(4-5), earth, creation giving hammers, air, force giving commerce).

This could actually be done. The problem is that it would be a huge pain in the ass for a number of reasons:

1. It'd be hard to keep track of. Players would have to look up every different node type to check stats since memorizing 21 different improvement mods would suck. For the same reason the Civics screen entry for mageocracy would basically be unreadable since you'd have a list of 21 different improvements with multiple modifications.

2. It wouldn't really be effective. Think how many mana nodes a given country actually has. Would you want to use a civic that gave 1-3 cities +5 food? And no bonus for your other cities? It wouldn't seem very worthwhile. Although it might make spamming Rites of Oghama more worthwhile, especially late-game.

Emancipation might still be a bit strong. I don't tend to keep more than 8 units per town(and can have the rest sit outside of town as a mobile defensive force). Thats balanced by a single non-state religion. Its pretty easy to spam yourself up to 3-4 non-state religions if you are going for a culture vic(20% culture boost on each temple), which would be an extra 7-10 happiness((9-12)-2).

Yeah, I ended up ditching that version of Emancipation in the newest revision.
 
Note: I havn't actually had a chance to play this yet, ive been going off of valk's decs on the first page, Hopefully I'll have a chance to actually play this weekend :).

For no foreign trade civics:
I see no problems thematically. I'm more worried balance wise, that no foreign trade can be pretty nasty, but if its only bad effect on three different civics, that might be a concern(on the other hand, if their good things aren't good enough to balance it out on their own, then no one will run the civic without the others, so its a tough balancing act). Perhaps they need some other minor drawbacks besides the foreign trade one. Eg, id like to see guilds get another minor bonus, and a minor malus. No clue what though.

Arete: what about mines giving a bonus point(or 2 for the financial boost) of commerce with arete? This would fit in with the whole money theme of the religion, and make dwarves able to keep up research wise in their hill heavy starts if they can get to arete. If you do this, id tone down the workshop boost, to be only commerce, or perhaps 1 hammer and the commerce. I kinda like the idea of turning all of the +hammer buildings into having weakish commerce boosts to go with them though.

For duty: I agree that it has useful effects(that should show up in some form somewhere), its just rather redundant with order. I'm not sure what the boost should be though. What about a minor(5%) everything boost(hammers, money, research, food), and a - WW boost? I could also see an argument for a draft/-ww.

For mageocracy. I agree that it would be a huge pain to code something for all mana types. What about if instead perhaps pick a few of the mana that make sense, but are rarely stacked generally(nature and life for food, force and earth for production), and make this the minor boost of the civic, while having the major boost be somehow research related or something that boosts mages(I know at some point someone was looking at having promotions tied to civics, what about all of your mages/archmages getting a free promotion(not sure if adepts should count) that gives them a exp growth rate boost while you stay in the civic(or perhaps you could tie it to the mage guilds, so that you only get the boost while staying in a town with a guild, might leave to less overhead to worry about). Could drop the node bit altogether even or just somehow give a flat boost of 2food/2hammers/2commerce to all node and nodetypes.


Other ideas for the initial civics:
Despotism could have a somewhat decent(but weaker than the current city states), reduction for both of these.(perhaps around -(15-25)% on each?) Edit: I moved this and lost the context. What I meant to say was a -(15-25%) to number of cities and distance from palace upkeeps.
Tribalism: is something like +(10-25)% to settler production possible?
Prudance: could have give like 1-3 free gpp growth to the palace(thinking of more ideas, rather than things that fit the name here)? Would be nice to help boost you at the start, but still something that you would grow out rather rapidly and want to swap up.
Same thing for decentralization, with a flat cash boost from the palace(4-8 points or so?)Might need a name change.
Basically, a bunch of minor boosts to the palace would help kick start the game a little, plus would help with anyone someone stuck with only a few towns, but once you get up and running, you are going to want overall bonuses.

You are going to eventually have to tweak the civ specific ones, esp like lost lands which is rather strong synergeristically, and I'm sure there are others that have been weakened due to you introducing things with similar boosts.
 
Is this still being worked on? It looked promising. ;)

Yeah, sorry for the delay. Things have been a bit hectic for me recently, and I haven't had the time I'd like to work on this.

I'll get some more stuff going soon. Unfortunately it's going to be spurts and droughts, I think.
 
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