DroopyTofu
Double Bass Double Bass
Camikaze, that could be limited if you made the mmovement hit zero wehen they get off the transport.
Ferries
- Thread starter TheDS
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Silurian
Deity
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As THEDS said at the start of this thread taking units across 1 tile straits can be "unnecessary micromanagement"
If they can only be used completly with your borders and there are restrictions on how many or how quickly units can move across they will not greatly effect an invasion rather than a transport.
I think a retricted number of units per turn but quiker than tranport would be better.
I want to manage the strategy of my empire not become a ferry captain.
Also not enough use is made of the sea, just fishing(whale, crabs) and oil wells.
If ferries generated gold with the space not used by units this would give another thing to consider when positioning a city.
If they can only be used completly with your borders and there are restrictions on how many or how quickly units can move across they will not greatly effect an invasion rather than a transport.
I think a retricted number of units per turn but quiker than tranport would be better.
I want to manage the strategy of my empire not become a ferry captain.
Also not enough use is made of the sea, just fishing(whale, crabs) and oil wells.
If ferries generated gold with the space not used by units this would give another thing to consider when positioning a city.
Maybe your empire isn´t split by one tile of water too often. But some times it will be more then one tile too. I think that the ferries should be possible to be lined up, making a road of them, for example along the coast. I don´t think the ferry will be useful very often, but in some scenarios it will save you from a lot of micro management, and I don´t think it will be too powerful as long as you need cultural control of it to use it and you lose your movement when leaving your line of ferries.
DroopyTofu
Double Bass Double Bass
To elaborate on what Silurian said, it would make it easier than moving all the units onto the boat, then having to unload them and tell them where to go the next turn. If you wanted them to go somewhere across the straight, you just right click on the other landmass and it will load and unload the troops for you. IMHO, it wouldn't change gameplay much, just save a couple seconds here and there.
Silurian
Deity
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You could have another option on transport to "ferry" rather than having to build an improvement.
But I would like to do more things with the sea via improvements.
So ferries could produce gold.
You could have seaweed collection producing hammers until industrialisation
Pleasure beach producing gold and happiness - If you had six you could build the "Bondi Beach wonder"
etc
But I would like to do more things with the sea via improvements.
So ferries could produce gold.
You could have seaweed collection producing hammers until industrialisation
Pleasure beach producing gold and happiness - If you had six you could build the "Bondi Beach wonder"
etc
DroopyTofu
Double Bass Double Bass
GIving a transport a "ferry" option might work. When you say "Transport" do you mean anyship that can act as a transporter (galleys and galleons) or just the modern age unit the Transport. If you mean the latter, then I'd definiantly go for using a workboat so it would be accessible earlier.
This idea I like.
vhhawk
Warlord
Max 2 units per turn can cross. That would put a damper on naval warfare use except for supply chain. Enemy vessels can pillage/destroy ferries.
I just finished a game where I had 2 coastal tiles between me and nearest civ, and next nearest civ was 2 coastal plus 2 sea. I had to reach caravel before I could contact the latter civ, and had to reach galleon before I could attack them. I like the idea of establishing ferry after beachhead.
I just finished a game where I had 2 coastal tiles between me and nearest civ, and next nearest civ was 2 coastal plus 2 sea. I had to reach caravel before I could contact the latter civ, and had to reach galleon before I could attack them. I like the idea of establishing ferry after beachhead.
TheDS
Regular Riot
My apologies for being away for so long. Stupid day job!
Easier? Sure. If that's the solution they use, I'm all for it. However, let me tell you what the real differences are between these Ferries I'm suggesting and the Transports in the game.
IRL, the overwhelming majority of ferries are NOT ocean-going ships. That would be a huge waste of resources to build them that way. Ferries are small, cheap, special-purpose vehicles, while transports are not. So from a reality perspective, in game they work a lot better if they're cheap workboats in disguise than if they're expensive Galleons.
Seems like overkill to make a special unit just to accomplish a small task that comes up only every once in a while. Kind of like Wineries, Whaling Boats, Forts, Obelisks (well, any Unique Building or Unit), Settlers, SDI, Privateers, etc. There are PLENTY of things in Civ4 that have very limited use. Almost every day, someone starts a post about the worst unit, or the worst building, or the worst whatever, and it's about something that player can't find a use for. Inevitably, the thread gets deluged with people defending that particular thing. Heck, I built a whole strategy around NOT building roads (and NOT researching The Wheel for about half the early game) just to see if it could be done. (It can.)
So if you're going to argue from a "What's the point of some little tidbit?" stance, consider yourself having been saved the trouble.
Yes. There are some people who play exclusively on Pangaea and will not have a use for a Ferry very often, but there are also people who play on Archipelago all the time and who might reap huge benefits from it. Those who play on Earth maps will definitely see the value, as that's where I had the need for it pounded into me.
Tell that to the people who declare war, and then unload a dozen transports on all the coastal cities all at once, all before the defenders have any chance at all of defending. I covered my personal distaste for this exploit in a different suggestion thread about requiring a delay between DoW and invasion under penalty of diplomatic penalty in my Penalty for Surprise Attack thread.
On top of that, the Cultural border isn't perfect, and I've had plenty of games where my border reaches someone else's city and I can sit right next to it, declare war, and take a city or two on the turn of the declaration. In either case, these surprise attacks almost always result in a vassal the very next turn. As you say, the game is too far in the hands of the attacker already.
As OP says, you can only use Ferries if they're in friendly territory. You can't use them if they're in enemy lands, or if they're in unowned lands. I think treating a Ferry like a Road is enough of a slowdown. If you insist on a one-turn delay, then why even have Ferries? Transports already do that, and as you noted above, all that's needed is for a boat to have a Ferry-mode that allows your auto-move commands to not get ruined by boarding.
I hope this has been of help. I'll post a reiteration of my idea next for those who are a little confused and want to be more so, and then I'll go into one last comment that was made and examine it.
Reiteration of the Ferry Idea
The point of Ferries is to save on some needless micromanagement. A real-life ferry is cheap, generally stays in one area over its lifetime, is not ocean-going, is not capable of defending itself from attack, and is not capable of conducting amphibious assaults. By basing Ferries off of Workboats - that is, a Workboat gets converted to a Ferry just like it can be converted to Fishing, Whaling, or Crabbing boats - we have a cheap way to build a tile improvement.
* Ferries are cheap, transports are not. In-game, Workboats are cheap and transport vessels are not.
* Ferries stay put on the coast, transports cross oceans. Ferries are only buildable on coastal squares - if you want trans-oceanic transport, it's much cheaper and faster to build a Galleon or Transport. If you have a 2-tile coast to cross, use 2 Ferries. It's a tile improvement, not a unit.
* Ferries can't defend themselves, transports can. Small boat like Ferries don't have room for guns and stuff. If someone comes along and attacks them, they're done for, no fight, they're just gone. Since these things could potentially be available very early in the game, as soon as Galleys are, it makes no sense to give them even a
of 1, because then Galleys still might lose. So just make them a tile improvement, which can be pillaged, but with the special condition that if a land unit is on that tile, it dies. Shouldn't've moved your guy there with enemy fleets around! If you want a defensible Ferry, either build a transport or station a warship there.
* Ferries are not invasion craft. Let's face it: there's things going on on the map that are too small to be depicted. When your troops are not allowed to use enemy roads, it's because they have to fight their way through. Same deal here: you can't use an enemy-controlled Ferry, and you can't use a Ferry to cross a hostile border. That's what transports are for.
Okay, now for one final comment and a new idea.
Let me thank you right quick for "getting it" and helping these guys understand what's going on while I'm not able to be here as much as I used to be.
So, what if Ferries were able to charge money for their use, or have some other benefit besides simply bridging landmasses (or cutting across bays)?
The first thought I had was that someone using a Ferry would pay a
for the pleasure. But that would practically never happen! And to make it useful, you'd have to be able to build and use them pretty much anywhere. Plop a ferry down in your opponents' back yards and hope he uses them instead of building his own? Would require ownership of a tile improvement to be different than the ownership of the tile, among other problems. It might be easier to have a Ferry unit.
Then I thought of it being something that would generate
if it was in a city radius, but that's rife for abuse potential. One or two, okay, but not a bunch.
Then I thought that maybe if the Ferry was used to link continents, there would be some sort of bonus to your income that way, but really, that would require a much different economic model for Civ, something we'd have to wait for Civ5 for. Ferries, as I've described them, could be implemented right now by some intrepid modder with a few hours on his hands and unlimited fame on his mind.
So it all boils down to using Ferries just to bridge small water gaps and pretty much nothing else. Sorry it's not exciting, but at least it's simple and practical.
Easier? Sure. If that's the solution they use, I'm all for it. However, let me tell you what the real differences are between these Ferries I'm suggesting and the Transports in the game.
IRL, the overwhelming majority of ferries are NOT ocean-going ships. That would be a huge waste of resources to build them that way. Ferries are small, cheap, special-purpose vehicles, while transports are not. So from a reality perspective, in game they work a lot better if they're cheap workboats in disguise than if they're expensive Galleons.
Seems like overkill to make a special unit just to accomplish a small task that comes up only every once in a while. Kind of like Wineries, Whaling Boats, Forts, Obelisks (well, any Unique Building or Unit), Settlers, SDI, Privateers, etc. There are PLENTY of things in Civ4 that have very limited use. Almost every day, someone starts a post about the worst unit, or the worst building, or the worst whatever, and it's about something that player can't find a use for. Inevitably, the thread gets deluged with people defending that particular thing. Heck, I built a whole strategy around NOT building roads (and NOT researching The Wheel for about half the early game) just to see if it could be done. (It can.)
So if you're going to argue from a "What's the point of some little tidbit?" stance, consider yourself having been saved the trouble.
Yes. There are some people who play exclusively on Pangaea and will not have a use for a Ferry very often, but there are also people who play on Archipelago all the time and who might reap huge benefits from it. Those who play on Earth maps will definitely see the value, as that's where I had the need for it pounded into me.
Tell that to the people who declare war, and then unload a dozen transports on all the coastal cities all at once, all before the defenders have any chance at all of defending. I covered my personal distaste for this exploit in a different suggestion thread about requiring a delay between DoW and invasion under penalty of diplomatic penalty in my Penalty for Surprise Attack thread.
On top of that, the Cultural border isn't perfect, and I've had plenty of games where my border reaches someone else's city and I can sit right next to it, declare war, and take a city or two on the turn of the declaration. In either case, these surprise attacks almost always result in a vassal the very next turn. As you say, the game is too far in the hands of the attacker already.
As OP says, you can only use Ferries if they're in friendly territory. You can't use them if they're in enemy lands, or if they're in unowned lands. I think treating a Ferry like a Road is enough of a slowdown. If you insist on a one-turn delay, then why even have Ferries? Transports already do that, and as you noted above, all that's needed is for a boat to have a Ferry-mode that allows your auto-move commands to not get ruined by boarding.
I hope this has been of help. I'll post a reiteration of my idea next for those who are a little confused and want to be more so, and then I'll go into one last comment that was made and examine it.
Reiteration of the Ferry Idea
The point of Ferries is to save on some needless micromanagement. A real-life ferry is cheap, generally stays in one area over its lifetime, is not ocean-going, is not capable of defending itself from attack, and is not capable of conducting amphibious assaults. By basing Ferries off of Workboats - that is, a Workboat gets converted to a Ferry just like it can be converted to Fishing, Whaling, or Crabbing boats - we have a cheap way to build a tile improvement.
* Ferries are cheap, transports are not. In-game, Workboats are cheap and transport vessels are not.
* Ferries stay put on the coast, transports cross oceans. Ferries are only buildable on coastal squares - if you want trans-oceanic transport, it's much cheaper and faster to build a Galleon or Transport. If you have a 2-tile coast to cross, use 2 Ferries. It's a tile improvement, not a unit.
* Ferries can't defend themselves, transports can. Small boat like Ferries don't have room for guns and stuff. If someone comes along and attacks them, they're done for, no fight, they're just gone. Since these things could potentially be available very early in the game, as soon as Galleys are, it makes no sense to give them even a
of 1, because then Galleys still might lose. So just make them a tile improvement, which can be pillaged, but with the special condition that if a land unit is on that tile, it dies. Shouldn't've moved your guy there with enemy fleets around! If you want a defensible Ferry, either build a transport or station a warship there.* Ferries are not invasion craft. Let's face it: there's things going on on the map that are too small to be depicted. When your troops are not allowed to use enemy roads, it's because they have to fight their way through. Same deal here: you can't use an enemy-controlled Ferry, and you can't use a Ferry to cross a hostile border. That's what transports are for.
Okay, now for one final comment and a new idea.
Let me thank you right quick for "getting it" and helping these guys understand what's going on while I'm not able to be here as much as I used to be.
So, what if Ferries were able to charge money for their use, or have some other benefit besides simply bridging landmasses (or cutting across bays)?
The first thought I had was that someone using a Ferry would pay a
for the pleasure. But that would practically never happen! And to make it useful, you'd have to be able to build and use them pretty much anywhere. Plop a ferry down in your opponents' back yards and hope he uses them instead of building his own? Would require ownership of a tile improvement to be different than the ownership of the tile, among other problems. It might be easier to have a Ferry unit.Then I thought of it being something that would generate
if it was in a city radius, but that's rife for abuse potential. One or two, okay, but not a bunch.Then I thought that maybe if the Ferry was used to link continents, there would be some sort of bonus to your income that way, but really, that would require a much different economic model for Civ, something we'd have to wait for Civ5 for. Ferries, as I've described them, could be implemented right now by some intrepid modder with a few hours on his hands and unlimited fame on his mind.
So it all boils down to using Ferries just to bridge small water gaps and pretty much nothing else. Sorry it's not exciting, but at least it's simple and practical.
I agree in all statements, but I want a loss of movement when going of the ferry and maybe a max use of ferries per turn.
When using a transport, the unit loses its turn when entering and leaving. Losing movement at only in one of these conditions will therefor still be an improvement.
If a ferry had a maximum capacity per turn, I guess it might be possible to build a few ferries on same tile (nice on, passes that are much used). Capacity would maybe start with 2. With new technologies, like engineering, it might be 3.
When using a transport, the unit loses its turn when entering and leaving. Losing movement at only in one of these conditions will therefor still be an improvement.
If a ferry had a maximum capacity per turn, I guess it might be possible to build a few ferries on same tile (nice on, passes that are much used). Capacity would maybe start with 2. With new technologies, like engineering, it might be 3.
Silurian
Deity
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Ferries could be built between two land non contigous land tiles over one coast tile.
(You could have a situation where one ferry conects 4 islands)
To cross two tiles would require a bigger ship! but i'm open to persuasion
Only one ferry can be built in one tile.
(Though I do think that more than one improvement should be able to be built in one tile thats another thats for another thread)
A ferry in the BFC generates 5 gold per turn less 1 per unit that crosses it
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
I like the idea!
I think there have not to be a special unit but ordinary ships could be used to form a "bridge" by implementing a special mission (it may take 1 turn before a bridge will be working). When player moves a unit to the "bridge", it simply pops on the other side with zero movement.
It's both simple and easy to mod!
I think there have not to be a special unit but ordinary ships could be used to form a "bridge" by implementing a special mission (it may take 1 turn before a bridge will be working). When player moves a unit to the "bridge", it simply pops on the other side with zero movement.
It's both simple and easy to mod!
Silurian
Deity
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If ferries produce gold to limit ferriy spaming.
Ferries only produce gold if being worked.
Limit the gold to the population size of the city that is working the ferry. The population are using the ferries to increase trade, if there is no population to use the ferry they can not get the potential trade. Say ten pop, three ferries, one unit uses ferries, you get nine gold
Ferries only produce gold if being worked.
Limit the gold to the population size of the city that is working the ferry. The population are using the ferries to increase trade, if there is no population to use the ferry they can not get the potential trade. Say ten pop, three ferries, one unit uses ferries, you get nine gold
Carl5872
Prince
Love this idea! Hope to see it in Civ 5
Why ?
Silurian
Deity
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You have to get on and off ferries, they are effected by storms, mechanical problems etc. So are roads railways but to a much lesser extent.
That is why I proposed treating a ferry as a road that you could not end a turn on and limit them to 5 units per turn. If they go two tiles, which I think is a long way for a ferry there should be say a restriction to 2 units per turn.
That is why I proposed treating a ferry as a road that you could not end a turn on and limit them to 5 units per turn. If they go two tiles, which I think is a long way for a ferry there should be say a restriction to 2 units per turn.
A map of island would be draticly changed if the ferries where like roads. Jumping from Island to Island should therefor cost your movement, but not as much as when using a transport ship. Losing movement both when jumping on and off a ship is crapy. Transport ships are therefor best when traveling a long way.
Still I see the point with railroads. If im gone be
y I can suggest tke once movement when leaving the railroads (an idea, not what Im sure I would recomend myself).
The logic in this is that it takes a bit time to unpack from the long distance transports (ferries and trains). (Roads would work as usual)
Still I see the point with railroads. If im gone be
y I can suggest tke once movement when leaving the railroads (an idea, not what Im sure I would recomend myself).The logic in this is that it takes a bit time to unpack from the long distance transports (ferries and trains). (Roads would work as usual)
But the point with the one turn delay for transports is that you always have the opportunity to see it coming. If I see a Civ powering across the ocean with heaps of loaded transports towards me, I know to prepare. And if it is only a one-turn warning (say, a fleet loading in London to head to Paris on the Earth18 map), then you still see that there are numerous transports in a city, and that those transports are loaded. And you should be duly prepared for that. Now, if we are to apply that to ferries also, which would have to be done, to negate any possible exploits of the system, then it just reverts back to the fact that that same function is achieved by transports, so the only real benefit out of ferries would be a lower cost.
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