FF 0.43 Bug Thread

[xienwolf]

Could you please explain so I know what to expect viz a viz the differences of AC 90 in FF?

Thanks from one of the dopey ones.

First, Loyalty will work differently after the next patch/release/whatever. Instead of just having th eunit die, it will remove Loyalty from the unit, forcing you to need to recast the spell before it turns Barbarian again.


As for how things are working right now, and would play at AC 90:

FfH:
lots of AI units gain Enraged, eventually they turn Barbarian and slaughter themselves against well defended cities one-by-one.

a few Human units gain Enraged, but the player was prepared with Loyalty so nothing happens except they are stronger and quicker

end result: Avatar gains a couple of units from the AI, but they mostly die immediately with no Barbarian benefit noticed. The Human gets a couple units that are stronger

FF:
lots of AI units gain Enraged, eventually they turn Barbarian and slaughter themselves against well defended cities one-by-one.

a few Human units gain Enraged, but the player was prepared with Loyalty and goes looking for fights with them. Most get into battles to clear the condition and remain alive, quite a few eventually die off.

end result: Avatar gains a couple of units from the AI, but they mostly die immediately with no Barbarian benefit noticed. The Human loses a few units, but doesn't have to worry about them attacking him.



Next versions of FF:
Human units gain enraged, but the player was ready with Loyalty, and gathers all enraged units together in a stack with an adept/mage who can cast Loyalty on them each time it wears off, thus preventing any of them from ever going Barbarian. Human gains stronger units, at the cost of performing a little bit of micromanaging.

 

[Opuhara]

if you are interested in a ctd
it is my first upload so i do not know if it will work

ATTACH]196528[/ATTACH]

 

[hiphopin]

Not a bug, but since xienwolf posts here a lot and I don't want to make a new thread on this. Will Valor, the tier 3 law sphere spell, EVER be buffed? As of now the 20% wear off chance kills it. And any plans on making loyalty a tier 2 spell?

 

[xienwolf]

That one would be a question for Vehem really. I try to avoid balance issues as often as I can so that I can focus on bugs and features

And please do leave this thread for bugs only. I read every single post made in the FF subforum (and unless busy with school, every thread in the rest of the FfH area as well)

 

[Sarisin]

First, Loyalty will work differently after the next patch/release/whatever. Instead of just having th eunit die, it will remove Loyalty from the unit, forcing you to need to recast the spell before it turns Barbarian again.


As for how things are working right now, and would play at AC 90:

FfH:
lots of AI units gain Enraged, eventually they turn Barbarian and slaughter themselves against well defended cities one-by-one.

a few Human units gain Enraged, but the player was prepared with Loyalty so nothing happens except they are stronger and quicker

end result: Avatar gains a couple of units from the AI, but they mostly die immediately with no Barbarian benefit noticed. The Human gets a couple units that are stronger

FF:
lots of AI units gain Enraged, eventually they turn Barbarian and slaughter themselves against well defended cities one-by-one.

a few Human units gain Enraged, but the player was prepared with Loyalty and goes looking for fights with them. Most get into battles to clear the condition and remain alive, quite a few eventually die off.

end result: Avatar gains a couple of units from the AI, but they mostly die immediately with no Barbarian benefit noticed. The Human loses a few units, but doesn't have to worry about them attacking him.



Next versions of FF:
Human units gain enraged, but the player was ready with Loyalty, and gathers all enraged units together in a stack with an adept/mage who can cast Loyalty on them each time it wears off, thus preventing any of them from ever going Barbarian. Human gains stronger units, at the cost of performing a little bit of micromanaging.

Thank you for taking your time to give a detailed explanation, xienwolf.

I know this is the bugs thread, but I'd like to put my two comments here on this AC 90 Avatar event.

First, it really is a non-event, isn't it? Except for having the bad luck of being in the vicinity or the targeted one of the Avatar itself, you need not fear much. Again, I contrast this to the early versions of FFH where the Avatar of Wrath event was often a game changer and killer. Now, pffffft!

Second, you can't be serious about your last paragraph on the next version of FF with this. Who is going to be able to micromanage their game like this? I predict this might be on a par with putting out hell terrain fires, etc. with Adepts/Life I only you are in a Chinese fire drill with Adepts/ Law I in this scenario.

And, once again, the AI takes it in the shorts as they WILL lose those units, right?

OK, thanks again - we'll have to see how this plays out. As I said, in my first 4 games of FF .43 I haven't gotten the AC up too high.

I'm a little surprised no one who has reached that Armageddon event has weighed in on this issue.

 

[xienwolf]

How often do you really have a unit going Barbarian without Law mana? It isn't 12 units per turn, scattered around your empire unless you are specifically abusing the promotions which are meant to be risky. So I do not think it will be much micromanagement. You just keep a single stack with all of the units who risk barbarism and a single adept who can cast loyalty every turn if required.



Horsemen are all pretty boring. One day I hope they get a massive overhaul to make them VERY unique and INCREDIBLY feared. Lots of new tags I develop are actually from ideas I had while trying to spice up the Horsemen a long time ago. CityBonuses being one of them. I imagined having the Avatar of Wrath be set with a 200 range CityBonus that applied -100 Culture, forcing cities throughout the world to lose their culture and shrinking the "civilized Territory" On small enough of a map this would actually wrap around and hit some cities twice, making it that much more fun Yersinia I pictured with a -30 Health Citybonus on a fairly small range, crippling any city he is about to attack. Buboes I pictured granting a massive BONUS to production, but also causing everyone to declare war on each other.

 

[Ambreville]

Slow spell...

I'm having a very slow game, the slowest I've ever experienced with Patch D so far. It takes 2 min 25 sec for the mouse pointer just to switch to the spinning world when waiting for the AI's turn to start, plus another 60 sec afterward for the AI's turn to complete.

This is the slowest I've ever seen. Usually, around Turn 400, the AI needs 45-50 seconds on my PC, even less if Civs have been eliminated, which is the case here -- there are only 6 Civs left incl. Hyborem.

I run Erebus, standard size, normal speed, 9 Civs. No Barb World option, no dragon, no hellish land. I've got an average-low computer as far as processing muscle is concerned.

I included the save file in case you want to check it out (it's gotta be the problem that's been discussed before -- Haunted Lands). One of the Scions was in play at the beginning of the game, but died out early on IIRC. I didn't see any Haunted Land tiles anywhere though.

 

[Tarquelne]

One of the Scions was in play at the beginning of the game, but died out early on IIRC. I didn't see any Haunted Land tiles anywhere though.

That means it's not the HL graphics. Good to know.
I think that also means it's not the python either - though I'm not sure. It'd still run through the map looking for Haunted Lands, but I don't think that'd take long if it doesn't have to stop and actually do anything.

Was the game slow from the first turns?

 

[Ambreville]

No, it was its usual "normal" self early on, given my experience with earlier games using Patch D. I usually play using the same format I described in my previous post. This one started slowing down in the 300's Turn, and got really" slow in the 400's. I rebooted once and relaunched the saved game, with the same result.

 

[odalrick]

Could the slowdown be caused by the seven pines effect on demons and angels? It looks like it could be hideously inefficient.

 

[Vehem]

Could the slowdown be caused by the seven pines effect on demons and angels? It looks like it could be hideously inefficient.

It certainly is hideously inefficient. It wasn't really meant to exist for this long, but I haven't sat down to improve on it yet. That being said, as Kael introduced an effect of his own for it, I'm tempted to just pull out the old code due to it being "dubious".

I don't think it will be the sole cause, but it's probably not helping.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Frankly, I never really thought that your Seven Pines effect made much sense. It does make more sense than changing it back from Force to Enchantment mana though...

 

[Sarisin]

I'm playing as the Scions and some of my units mysteriously start 'dying rather than not serving the Emperor.' As this included two Great Werewolves with Loyalty, I was surprised they would turn barb/die.

Well, the culprit was the ESTRANGED promotion.

I couldn't find much on that. What is it? How do units get it? And, most of all, how do you get rid of it? Or, can you just kiss that unit goodbye?

Also, I learned the hard way that you should never build the Mercurian Gate when you are playing the Scions. The second turn after Basium arrived my great ally sprung his World Spell killing a bunch of my units (including two 'heroes') and damaging the rest. A real bonehead move on my part - not a good alliance to create unless you could somehow get Basium to not use his World Spell. Of course, if your enemy brings him in...get ready to lose some units.

 

[Tarquelne]

Well, the culprit was the ESTRANGED promotion.

I couldn't find much on that. What is it? How do units get it? And, most of all, how do you get rid of it?

The effect is in the new "Concept" pedia entry - may as well give it some air. The last paragraph is the most relevant.

Spoiler :

It is the nature of the world that everything is itself. This may seem a truism, but it does not hold in the Haunted Lands. The Haunted Lands join everything together, in the Haunted Lands things *blur*. Notably the line between death and life. There life, of a sort, is found in death and death, of a sort, is found in life.

Eating anything grown within the Haunted Lands is very difficult. The grain may scream when harvested and make bread that crumbles into something like bone meal when baked. Its beer could taste and smell of nightmares. Cattle tend to be stillborn, which makes it all the more disturbing as the herds continue to grow.

Nevertheless there is much wealth to be found in the Haunted Lands for the brave of heart and strong of stomach. Examples: A tree with branches that when aged and dried taste of nectar and honey, after being killed and cooked, of course. A stream lined with trainable, watchful stones. A pit full of knowledgeable darkness.

Use Haunted Lands to defend Patria Reborn or spoil the territories of your enemies. The Haunted Lands are not well suited to the living.

The Undead have a natural affinity to the Haunted Lands. Their senses are sharpened, their arms strong. The Haunted Lands are also a source of many wonders... often grotesque or terrible. The useful ones can be kept or traded so others may appreciate the Gift. The useless ones - and there are many - can be a burden to any nearby living land. The Haunted Lands will foster Unhealth in nearby cities.

Perhaps most disturbing, at least to those who haven't accepted the Emperor's Gift, is that those bearing wounds in the Haunted Lands do not always heal true. The substance of the Haunted Lands, or the lack thereof, enters their flesh. They become undead. Some carry on afterward, cleaving to their old gods and loyalties. Some go strange, eventually raising their hand - or whatever's left - against all others.

I believe the better dead than Red bit was indeed Loyalty. I think xienwolf's said that's going to change.

 

[kenken244]

When aclinus dies, all three versions of him are gifted to an opponent. when the adept version is disbanded or killed he is ressurected in the capital but another version of him still goes barb.

 

[Sarisin]

The effect is in the new "Concept" pedia entry - may as well give it some air. The last paragraph is the most relevant.



I believe the better dead than Red bit was indeed Loyalty. I think xienwolf's said that's going to change.

OK, I get it. Keep your wounded alive units (like Werewolves) out of the Haunted Lands or there is a good chance they will become Estranged. And, apparently like the Enraged promotion it is not a matter of if they turn/die, but when.

Thanks for the cross-reference.

Any comment on summoning Basium while playing as the Scions?

 

[Tarquelne]

When aclinus dies, all three versions of him are gifted to an opponent. when the adept version is disbanded or killed he is ressurected in the capital but another version of him still goes barb.

Disbanding Alcinus leading to a duplicate barbarian is a known bug.

As for the rest: Do you mean all three simultaneously? Wow.

I re-installed FF and E and I'm not seeing that in my tests - just the expected sometimes-he-returns-sometimes-he-doesn't.

Do you remember what game options you'd selected? Anything else less-than-usual about the circumstances?

 

[Tarquelne]

OK, I get it. Keep your wounded alive units (like Werewolves) out of the Haunted Lands or there is a good chance they will become Estranged.

Korrina will be OK, btw - thought of that just in time to wedge it into E.

And, apparently like the Enraged promotion it is not a matter of if they turn/die, but when.

Not quite - Estranged wears off - 20% expire chance/turn.

Any comment on summoning Basium while playing as the Scions?

"Sucks to be me." is what I generally say when it happens. Beyond that, not really.

Well, OK, I do have a few thoughts:

Use Pelemoc to check other civs for Mercurian gate construction and then do bad things to them.

Don't build the Gate yourself unless you're an island civ or have your neighbors well cowed.

There *is* an event where Basium does something nice for the Scions, but don't count of that saving you.

 

[Blakmane]

Advanced starts suffer from long turn wait times as well, which leads me to believe slowdown from barbarian world seems to be occuring at least partially due to city AI processes. If I just plonk the cities down via worldbuilder I will also suffer from slowdown. IMO The reason people are reporting it as a start of game bug rather than a bug in general is because people expect some measure of slowdown as the game progresses (and so it doesn't get as noticed when there are more cities later on)

I know you guys are flat out with bug and feature coding at the moment, but if you could these performance issues really need some serious time devoted to them. It's got to the point of making even small maps of FF virtually unplayable for those of us without supercomputers. For reference, look at the amount of time it takes to load a turn 300-400 turns into FF, and then go back to vanilla BTS and see how long that takes.

FFH isn't much better actually. It's only partially a FF problem.

 

[Sarisin]

Korrina will be OK, btw - thought of that just in time to wedge it into E.



Not quite - Estranged wears off - 20% expire chance/turn.



"Sucks to be me." is what I generally say when it happens. Beyond that, not really.

Well, OK, I do have a few thoughts:

Use Pelemoc to check other civs for Mercurian gate construction and then do bad things to them.

Don't build the Gate yourself unless you're an island civ or have your neighbors well cowed.

There *is* an event where Basium does something nice for the Scions, but don't count of that saving you.

Thanks for the feedback, T. I found the Estranged spell seemed to have a better chance of turning/killing units than wearing off. I guess the key is to just keep the wounded living units off the Haunted Land tiles.

However, I'm wondering about having ANY living units on Haunted Land tiles. Here are two 'spooky effects' I had (these with patch D - I just downloaded E and didn't know if it would break save games):

1. Two captured barb/orc Axemen turned into human axemen.

2. A captured barb Lizard Ranger turned into human ranger

3. The weirdest - an Archer turned into an Ecclesiastic!!!

Do these spooky effects make sense to you? Ah, I guess not, or they wouldn't be spooky!

Oh yeah, Pelemoc was one of the heroes killed by Basium's WorldSpell. I don't think it would be very effective sending him around a huge map looking for Mercurian Gate builders. Hmmm, there is always that World Builder, eh?