[MOD] FFH TweakMod

[cabbagemeister]

Finished my Doviello game. Now I remember why I don't like playing as the Doviello--they're so boring to me. I think your changes have prevented them from being eternally crippled by their starts, which is good. And running around capturing animals is a lot of fun in the early game--I relied heavily on dancing bears for cultural expansions. But beyond the early game, they're the same old Doviello who just throw hordes of axemen at their enemies. Fun for some, I suppose.


Played a game with the Kuoriates. CotD is fun. I like the choice you get when converting a unit to keep them or to suicide them for the dragon XP. Makes up pretty well for the dragons not getting the hero promotion.

Some issues I noticed:

1) Units I capture with CotD have many promotions, but arrive with XP unspent. They will for instance have Combat IV and shock, and their XP when they arrive on my team will be 17/2. This makes converted CotD very overpowered.

2) Legends appears to convert significantly less than 25% of units to CotD. I conquered a nation quickly after casting Legends and saw only about 5 of 50 units have CotD.

3) Balance issue: currently, deleting CotD units doesn't give XP to dragons (only killing them in battle does). Maybe deleting them should also give XP? I can't decide whether that would be overpowered or not. Positives: if I'm playing against the Kurios, it would keep me from just deleting all my CotD units and cranking out some replacements (which is certainly not in the spirit of the spell). Negatives: this would be easily exploitable by a Kurios player who could, for instance, buy a hundred slaves the turn before casting Legends and delete all the CotD ones.

4) What tech enables Wyrmhold? I went pretty much through the entire tech tree and never saw it.

5) Free promotions for arcane units higher than adepts appears to be broken (probably due to the Amurite changes you made). I had 3 sun mana and my mages didn't get Sun II.


Finally, I don't know if this is an issue with your mod or with base FfH .41, but most AIs seem to be teching atrociously in my games. In both this Kurios game and my Doviello and Sidar games, at least half the AIs on a huge map never got to education by turn 300, on Immortal. Yikes.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Also, I went pure cottage economy this time, and the cottage graphics were fine.

 

[Rystic]

Finished my Doviello game. Now I remember why I don't like playing as the Doviello--they're so boring to me. I think your changes have prevented them from being eternally crippled by their starts, which is good. And running around capturing animals is a lot of fun in the early game--I relied heavily on dancing bears for cultural expansions. But beyond the early game, they're the same old Doviello who just throw hordes of axemen at their enemies. Fun for some, I suppose.

I'm trying to think of a way to include werewolves into their late game. I almost want to make Halfmorn the Doviello hero, or make their worldspell turn very powerful units into werewolves.

Played a game with the Kuoriates. CotD is fun. I like the choice you get when converting a unit to keep them or to suicide them for the dragon XP. Makes up pretty well for the dragons not getting the hero promotion.

1) Units I capture with CotD have many promotions, but arrive with XP unspent. They will for instance have Combat IV and shock, and their XP when they arrive on my team will be 17/2. This makes converted CotD very overpowered.

That's a problem. It doesn't sound too hard to fix, though.

2) Legends appears to convert significantly less than 25% of units to CotD. I conquered a nation quickly after casting Legends and saw only about 5 of 50 units have CotD.

I noticed that, too, which is weird. I originally wanted more than a flat 25%, like having it increased by Pagan Temples, Monuments, lack of a religion, etc. In the next update, I'm also adding CotD events that will give units the promotion.

3) Balance issue: currently, deleting CotD units doesn't give XP to dragons (only killing them in battle does). Maybe deleting them should also give XP? I can't decide whether that would be overpowered or not. Positives: if I'm playing against the Kurios, it would keep me from just deleting all my CotD units and cranking out some replacements (which is certainly not in the spirit of the spell). Negatives: this would be easily exploitable by a Kurios player who could, for instance, buy a hundred slaves the turn before casting Legends and delete all the CotD ones.

I'm not going to make deleting units give experience. It works the same way as angels/demons. Hundreds of slaves won't do much either, because the experience is based off unit level.

4) What tech enables Wyrmhold? I went pretty much through the entire tech tree and never saw it.

Wyrmhold is always buildable by a Great Prophet. This is going to change to Priesthood in the next update.

5) Free promotions for arcane units higher than adepts appears to be broken (probably due to the Amurite changes you made). I had 3 sun mana and my mages didn't get Sun II.

The Amurite stuff is out in the next update. It was fun while it lasted, but it's not what they need.

Finally, I don't know if this is an issue with your mod or with base FfH .41, but most AIs seem to be teching atrociously in my games. In both this Kurios game and my Doviello and Sidar games, at least half the AIs on a huge map never got to education by turn 300, on Immortal. Yikes.

Must be base .41. I didn't touch the AI.

Also, I went pure cottage economy this time, and the cottage graphics were fine.

 

[cabbagemeister]

I'm trying to think of a way to include werewolves into their late game. I almost want to make Halfmorn the Doviello hero, or make their worldspell turn very powerful units into werewolves.

Sounds cool. A suggestion: at Feral Bond, let them merge wolf packs with warriors to create ravenous werewolves. Or merge them with slaves--conjures cool images of the Doviello forcing unwilling captives to become monsters.

I'm not going to make deleting units give experience. It works the same way as angels/demons. Hundreds of slaves won't do much either, because the experience is based off unit level.

I didn't notice any xp differences depending on the level of the unit killed. What's the conversion? 1xp per level?

Wyrmhold is always buildable by a Great Prophet. This is going to change to Priesthood in the next update.

I got several great prophets and I never saw that I could build it...maybe I just didn't notice the icon. Is it a national wonder, or could you build 4 of them?

The Amurite stuff is out in the next update. It was fun while it lasted, but it's not what they need.

Yeah but this lack of free promo issue was for my (Kuriotate) mages too. Would eliminating the Amurite stuff fix this?

Are you going to give the Amurites anything else instead of the free promos? I always thought that the Amurites are terrible before they get Govannon and strong afterwards; it's just a long trek to get him. Maybe they should get Govannon earlier, perhaps as a Mage hero at Sorcery rather than an archmage hero? Or even an adept hero at KotE?

 

[Rystic]

Sounds cool. A suggestion: at Feral Bond, let them merge wolf packs with warriors to create ravenous werewolves. Or merge them with slaves--conjures cool images of the Doviello forcing unwilling captives to become monsters.

My plan as of now is this: with Feral Bond, 4th level Sons of Arsena can upgrade to Ravenous Werewolves, and 4th level Battlemasters can upgrade to Blooded Werewolves. Both will require a wolf in the tile and will consume the wolf.

I didn't notice any xp differences depending on the level of the unit killed. What's the conversion? 1xp per level?

It's a random number, up to the unit level.

I got several great prophets and I never saw that I could build it...maybe I just didn't notice the icon. Is it a national wonder, or could you build 4 of them?

I actually removed it for testing and forgot to put it back in. It'll be fixed in the next update.

Or even an adept hero at KotE?

I'm giving the Amurites Gaelan as a hero, buildable at KotE.

 

[cabbagemeister]

My plan as of now is this: with Feral Bond, 4th level Sons of Arsena can upgrade to Ravenous Werewolves, and 4th level Battlemasters can upgrade to Blooded Werewolves.

What's the point of making that distinction? By the time a player has FB, they probably have iron working as well, and so you're just adding a little bit of extra micromanagement to make them upgrade to battlemasters before werewolf-izing (because no one would choose to make a ravenous werewolf if they could make a blooded one instead for a little bit of extra cash+micro).

I would argue to make all werewolves start as ravenous werewolves. Not only is the ravenous werewolf concept very cool, but their low lifespan keeps the whole werewolf mechanic from becoming overwhelmingly powerful. On the other hand, I could see the argument against sacrificing a high-level melee unit to get an enraged werewolf that dies immediately. You could just argue that the player wouldn't use their best melee units. On the other hand, if you really want to encouarge the Dov. player to transition to an all-werewolf army, you could let level 4+ or 6+ units turn into Blooded werewolves, and make all other units turn into ravenous werewolves. And, following that logic, maybe let level 10+ units turn into greater werewolves?

Of course, one effect this would have would be to encourage the Dov player to save his worldspell until after he got Feral Bond, because that would be the only way to really get enough wolves to move to a werewolf-heavy army.


Just my random thoughts.

 

[Rystic]

I'm racking my brains trying to figure out the best way to do this.

I'm almost considering implementing it like it was in the Splintered Court, with a Lycanthropy promotion to signal which units cycle.

 

[Tasunke]

why only one patriach per game?

So ... I have some Ideas for the religious world spells. (not all religions are created equal)

Ashen Veil --> all cities of non-veil civs get halved in population, as well as chances for improvements to be destroyed.

FOL --> all snow and tundra in culture melted to plains, all free tiles have forest growth, all remaining forest become ancient forest, all FOL recon gain poisoned blade promo.

Runes --> all free hills gain mine, pre-existing mines (without bonuses) have 10%chance gain gold, 5% gain gems, 3% gain copper, 2% gain iron, 1% gain mithril. and recieve 20-40 gold per kilmorph temple. (or an extra +1 gold universally on kilmorph temples)

Order --> all units gain demon slaying and undead slaying, holy shrine gains an extra 2 law mana, for a total of 3. temple of order in every city of Order following civs.

Octopus Overlords --> gain asylum in each city, asylum no longer causes unhappiness, asylum gains +2 culture (or just add 50 culture at normal speed per city), each city spawns a drown. cities with a pre-existing asylum will spawn a lunatic (without the crazed promotion?)

Empy--> removes Esus religion from all Empy civs' cities. all Empy civs' cities gain temple of empyrean, and all empyrean temples universally gain +2 science. Also, a worldwide removal of hidden nationality. (to make it stronger u could also remove hidden, but I prefer it this way)

 

[Rystic]

I'm actually holding out on the Patriarch stuff until I get the werewolf-mechanic down. I've tried a few things, but nothing I like yet.

 

[Tasunke]

Perhaps give 4th level battlemasters an auto-promo that allows a spell to change into a Blooded werewolf, and give Blooded Werewolfs a promo spell to change back into a battlemaster?

 

[Rystic]

Perhaps give 4th level battlemasters an auto-promo that allows a spell to change into a Blooded werewolf, and give Blooded Werewolfs a promo spell to change back into a battlemaster?

I actually finally have the mechanic down. The Doviello get a Druid UU, Children of Halfmorn, buildable at Feral Bond. They don't have a building requirement. The only condition is that you must be evil! They function like Baron Duin Halfmorn, but with lower odds (they also have their own line of werewolves called 'Whitepelts').

I'd release it now, but the AI is acting completely stupid. I don't know if it's something I did, or just .41. I don't think it's something I did. I'll update again after I fix it.

 

[Tasunke]

so then ... the werewolfs are completed eh? so ....

what do ye think about my religious worldspell Ideas?
(also, is the patriarch through a high level promotion, like requiring combat 5 or something, like it was originally?) - if so maybe make a "soft cap" of one, but dedicated spiritual players could get one or two more in a long game.

like first one requires lv 6, second req lv 15, third req lv 20? maybe make that vampire promo blocks the patriarch promo so that vamps cant abuse it?

 

[Rystic]

so then ... the werewolfs are completed eh? so ....

what do ye think about my religious worldspell Ideas?
(also, is the patriarch through a high level promotion, like requiring combat 5 or something, like it was originally?) - if so maybe make a "soft cap" of one, but dedicated spiritual players could get one or two more in a long game.

like first one requires lv 6, second req lv 15, third req lv 20? maybe make that vampire promo blocks the patriarch promo so that vamps cant abuse it?

Patriarch is on hold for now, until the wolf thing is complete and the AI is fixed. I still want to include Lycanthropy for other units, so you can make your Sons of Asena and Battlemasters werewolfs. At the moment, I'd say it's about 70% complete.

As for the AI, I'm not sure what's going on. They're not teching out to Mining or anything useful. They're also building ridiculous numbers of farms. If I can figure out what's causing this, I can get everything back on track

 

[cabbagemeister]

Sounds like the same thing I saw in some of my games: at turn 250 they have no cottages, no techs to hook up resources, and no roads. Maybe try merging with the Better Economic AI mod? I actually merged the two last night just to try it out, and it seemed to work well (certainly the AI outteched me and kicked my butt!)

I like your Children of Halfmorn idea. My only suggestion would be to remove some of the normal Druid buffs from them, as it's not fair to give the Doviello Druids AND Eidolons. For instance, maybe remove their Channeling promos so you can't have Balor-summoning druids. Also maybe remove the Nature affinity, which can get overwhelming in concert with FoL.

 

[Rystic]

Sounds like the same thing I saw in some of my games: at turn 250 they have no cottages, no techs to hook up resources, and no roads. Maybe try merging with the Better Economic AI mod? I actually merged the two last night just to try it out, and it seemed to work well (certainly the AI outteched me and kicked my butt!)

Sounds great! I'll have to try it.

I like your Children of Halfmorn idea. My only suggestion would be to remove some of the normal Druid buffs from them, as it's not fair to give the Doviello Druids AND Eidolons. For instance, maybe remove their Channeling promos so you can't have Balor-summoning druids. Also maybe remove the Nature affinity, which can get overwhelming in concert with FoL.

Already done. As of now, they're 11/7 with Magic Resistance, Cannibalize, and Werewolf (and Winterborn, since the Doviello build them).

 

[Valkrionn]

Would you mind if I steal your Diverse trait? I'd actually like to give it to the Barbarian faction.... Should solve any HN issues. Would have barbarian Svart Hunters running around. No reason for barbs to be all orc anyway, seeing as the Doviello are just as barbaric, if not more so.

 

[Rystic]

Would you mind if I steal your Diverse trait? I'd actually like to give it to the Barbarian faction.... Should solve any HN issues. Would have barbarian Svart Hunters running around. No reason for barbs to be all orc anyway, seeing as the Doviello are just as barbaric, if not more so.

By all means

That's actually an interesting idea... I might just try a game with that on Barbarians (or at least make Diverse Barbarians an option).

 

[cabbagemeister]

What's the thinking behind giving the Doviello Hunting to start with? I thought the point of giving them the Feral tech was to let them build camps and capture animals without giving them such a massive headstart on FoL.

Also, how are you giving Firebows the ability to cast fireball? I hope you're not just giving them FireII and taking away Channeling II, as that would prevent cool tactics like Stoneskin Firebows or Water Walking Firebows.

 

[Rystic]

What's the thinking behind giving the Doviello Hunting to start with? I thought the point of giving them the Feral tech was to let them build camps and capture animals without giving them such a massive headstart on FoL.

It was something I did when the AI got all stupid. Considering BetterEconomy, this will probably go back to the way it was.

Also, how are you giving Firebows the ability to cast fireball? I hope
you're not just giving them FireII and taking away Channeling II, as that would prevent cool tactics like Stoneskin Firebows or Water Walking Firebows.

They get to keep Channeling II.

 

[blade117]

This is an amazing set of changes. It should be added to the main mod.

EDIT: Add flavour mod (the thing w/ flavour starts) and it would be perfect. The current version works with 41a, but not with this modmod.