FfH2 0.13 Balance Recommendation

[BeefontheBone]

Im not much of a seafaring man myself but I thought Id give it a try and started researching Octopus Overlords as my religion
I looked ahead at their special buildings and noticed that all wonders that can be built when you have this religion offer: -% gold, -% research, - trade route

why would I want to build these things? some of them even add +/- unhappiness to the city

Because they're needed to build the OO's Tier 5 (4? I lose track) units. The negatives are the cost of access to the powerful units.

 

[kevjm]

Because they're needed to build the OO's Tier 5 (4? I lose track) units. The negatives are the cost of access to the powerful units.

Not according to the building design thread on this forum. There's a list of the building's affects in that thread and in the civlopedia, some of it is out of date though. :: shruggs :: It's a beta

 

[soibean]

The dwarven civ that uses mud golems instead of workers:
mud golems take more turns to build than settlers...
do they build improvements faster or was this a mistake?

 

[wilboman]

They build improvements faster.

 

[soibean]

oh alright just checking... I was just starting off with that civ and went to build a worker 100 turns, setller 42
I wasn't too sure on that one
Im playing as the evil clown civ (sorry cant remember exact name) and I love the other race cages you can build! I was thinking though, maybe their civ should have a promotion, gained from ancient chants, that gives them plys 40% vs elves and humans
just a thought

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Oh, speaking of which, can Balseraph elve/dwarve/human/orc slaves escape their cages now too? They'd actually be dangerous, being able to move inside culture borders and all.

 

[soibean]

how do you capture the elves/dwarves/humans/orcs?
do you need slavery or something?
and I would think that they could escape, most likely with the same chance as the animals
Acrobats +100% vs animals isn't working, in my current game it only shows the plus 25% from subdue animal promotion

 

[Silverkiss]

Well, I prefer to think that elves/dwarfs/humans/orcs are smarter than animals... so the change would be bigger...

 

[Chalid]

how do you capture the elves/dwarves/humans/orcs?
do you need slavery or something?
and I would think that they could escape, most likely with the same chance as the animals
Acrobats +100% vs animals isn't working, in my current game it only shows the plus 25% from subdue animal promotion

Bonus:
Where did you check the bonus? In the combat preview?

Slaves:
You can capture them with the balseraph Taskmaster or with the slavery civic.

 

[soibean]

battle preview when I clicked and drug the circle over him
only showed 25% bonus

 

[H.GrenadeFrenzy]

the free tech situation will probrably never make Everone happy what I suggest is8different free techs in the game. One for each civ that discovers/founds a religion as a symbol of their enlightenment/dinine-infernal attunement and the writing and the pilosophy Hell.....later on add 4 more to mix it up a little........what is fair about cultural advancement anyway springs forward are what progressive cultures strive for and as for loosing the races......unless I am really gunning for something I find I'll loose that free tech race anyway because my civ has more important things to worry about than min/maxing like keeping production up and the people content and fed etc.........instead of arguing and fretting over 1 or 2 free techs it could be possible to raise the overall number in a manner not likely to be cross-lined ie..Alignment and Religios lines of enlightenment and therefore when some civ develops a religion you have no interest in.........say if your Leaves someone makes Octopus Overlords....instead of "oh well,I'll kill him later anyway .I founded my religion long before him amyway."..........ITS..."uh-oh someone just founded Overlords. Where the hell are they and are they leapfrogging the rest of us........."......just an idea for flavor and a way to get around the issue and still keep it interesting. Why this adds balance is evident only when one sees it as difficult for anyone to get them all or even most....it is more likely that several differnt civs will recieve a free tech means that those that don't have a highter chance of falling behind but more pull into the lead........thus being the lone racer becomes very unlikely ..........it increased the odds of winning a free or not winning a free tech is irrational once the alighment system starts in because if you go chasing every religion the rest of your civilization suffers..........and the team could always limit this reward to one or two free tech from religions per civ.........that would do it troo.........anyway this is most definitely a rawhide chew......and I thaought I should put it forward as a possiblity.....The Opiad of the Masses......some call religion and technology has often gone hand in hand with it......Education and Writing and Philosophy too.......

 

[z00t]

Gargoyles are after iron golems in the tech tree, but not much stronger than wood golems. They dont need iron to build so its good keeping them there, but they would be better as a strength 8 I think so theyre 10 str defending but weaker than iron golems at attacking.

 

[Chalid]

I tried to play an GP heavy startegy yesterday but its nearly impossible. I got so few GP that i soon abandoned the strategy and went back to cottage spamming, which is even in Vanilla more powerfull that the Specialist/GP strategy but not much so.

Here my analysis concerning GP generation compared to vanilla:
The needed Points to get an GP are 150% up.
The possible modifier one can get easily is 100%+50% (philosophical) + 75% pacifism + 20% (arete) = 245 % compared to 350% (Patheon,Pacifism,Philosophical)

Im not sure but i think our specialists give 2 GPP instead of 3 GPP (vanilla) and albeit we have some buildings/wonders that give GPP the big chunk comes form Specialists.

So we have 150% * (350% / 245%) * [150% (not sure)] = 215% or even 321%(specialists) of the relative cost of GP.
For the city with the national epic its still 195% [300%] (compared to vanilla).
I think that needs dire reworking. So i would say Specialistas to 3 GPP (if they are modifierd) and the increase of cost back to 100 instead of 150.

That was general.

But now comes the real unfunny part. I played with the grigory which with their industrial/Philosophical ahould be the ideal civ for a GP heavy startegy. But widely failed. The Grigory can not adopt a states religion and thus the are not able to use pacifism or arete. Therefor they are struck by the 100%+50% (Philiosophical) modifier.

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?

 

[wilboman]

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?

How about a new civic for civs with no religion, or, perhaps easier, give a GP % to Free Religion?

You could call the Grigori inquisitor the Liberator or something like that? Hmmm. Or perhaps make Inquisitor an early Adventurer promotion?

 

[xumio]

how about some agnostic civic in the religion category giving at least +n %GPP (and some negative like -% culture) in all cities and -n %GPP per religion.
so there might be some incentive in keeping ALL religions out of your cities, barring you from religion specific buildings/unit, but rewarding you for beeing atheist. (people don't "waste" time with religion).
might need some way for the [inquisitor like unite] to remove ALL religions.

i know the idea isn't really thought out through the end, but i'll have to rush to my final exam, hope to improve upon this concept when i get back.
maybe someone has other boni more fitting for this playing style.
could also be fun to send lots of guys trying to convert his cities to such a player

 

[Hian the Frog]

Chalid,

I read your post about Grigori and their GP problem.

I think that giving a bonus to Agnostic trait is a good and easy solution (even if not the only one). As somebody writes, people don't "waste" time with religion. An other solution is a specific building for Agnostic leader. A school of philosophy for exemple.
I don't know if it's technically possible, but i think that civs with Agnostic leader would NEVER generate a Great Prophet.

The Frog.

 

[Kael]

I tried to play an GP heavy startegy yesterday but its nearly impossible. I got so few GP that i soon abandoned the strategy and went back to cottage spamming, which is even in Vanilla more powerfull that the Specialist/GP strategy but not much so.

Here my analysis concerning GP generation compared to vanilla:
The needed Points to get an GP are 150% up.
The possible modifier one can get easily is 100%+50% (philosophical) + 75% pacifism + 20% (arete) = 245 % compared to 350% (Patheon,Pacifism,Philosophical)

Im not sure but i think our specialists give 2 GPP instead of 3 GPP (vanilla) and albeit we have some buildings/wonders that give GPP the big chunk comes form Specialists.

So we have 150% * (350% / 245%) * [150% (not sure)] = 215% or even 321%(specialists) of the relative cost of GP.
For the city with the national epic its still 195% [300%] (compared to vanilla).
I think that needs dire reworking. So i would say Specialistas to 3 GPP (if they are modifierd) and the increase of cost back to 100 instead of 150.

That was general.

But now comes the real unfunny part. I played with the grigory which with their industrial/Philosophical ahould be the ideal civ for a GP heavy startegy. But widely failed. The Grigory can not adopt a states religion and thus the are not able to use pacifism or arete. Therefor they are struck by the 100%+50% (Philiosophical) modifier.

I think we should do something to solve that dilemma. First of all i would bump Philosophical, as this trait is weaker at the moment than then pacifism civic, which strikes me as very odd. Maybe Philosophical up to 75% (same as pacifism)
The second thing is that we need something to get an additional modifier in for the grigory.
Maybe the adventurers guild could get some extra GPP modifier (additional to the +2 Adventurer points) and/or we need a wonder similar to the Patheon. Or Maybe Pacifism does not require states religion for the grigory?

Btw. How far are we with an grigory inquisitor?

Excellent points here. The reason GPP are turned down so much is I want a greater distinction between civs that are good at great people and those that aren't. So the base is reduced intentionally. Now, as you state we have to make some civs good at it. I was hoping that the Grigori would be, but your analysis shows that they aren't.

So I'll return Philosophical to +100%. Thats probably the easiest way to distinguish between those that are and arent supposed to be good at great people.

As for something Grigori specific, we are going to be adding a special obelisk for the grigori and kuriotates in the next version that doesnt cost gold. Do you want me to put +1 GPP on it too? Or is there a better way?

The grigori inquisitor never got much past the idea phase. I'll try to get him added to 0.14.

 

[Maniac]

As a fan of anything-but-boring-cottage-spam I'm glad to read this.

How about using Impaler's Great People Point Pooling, included in the CCCP? :beg:

 

[Chalid]

Raw +1 GPP is not too usefull, as a real GP will run with about 10 Specialists. That should be 30 GPP. So the +1GPP does not do very much. The second thing is that the +1 GPP would sum up to + many gpp empirewide but effective one very few cities will ever spawn a GP so in fact only one or two of the obeliks will make a difference.

Maybe we add +15% GPP for the Kuriotate and Girgori Obelisk (Kuriotate can use it, too).

And maybe we add another 25% for the adventurers guild (it draws all kind of interesting people) or as stated we change the pacifism civic so that it works in all cities for the agnostic civs. (I think one can be an agonstic pacifist, too. The more i think about it many agnostics are pacifistic )

The GPPpooling might be a good idea but it takes from the decision to really run a specialist approach and instead results simply in more random GP for people that do not care at all. So i think its not in the spirit of FfH.

 

[TheCowSaysMoooo]

What if you were to go with some sort of GP pooling just for the Grigori? All the GP points created in their cities went into a big pool of points, then when it reached the threshold, a GP spawns in one of their 3 largest cities?
[edit]Or spawns in the city that contributed the most GP points to the pool?