FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Chandrasekhar]

Seems that it's not necessary to limit the dwarves in this late-game feature, but as the AI doesn't use vitalize anyway (right?), it's only an issue for human players.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

what about making the Rituals easier to build.
not by making them cheaper, maybe adding an option that allows cities to help build the Rituals, by assigning their hammer to the city that is building it.
That way your whole Empire could build the Ritual.
It would still be an enormous effort to build it, but i think it would spice up the endgame a bit, which tends to be a bit dull at the moment.

This exact sentiment is why I've suggested moving these earlier in the tech tree. Knowing someone is building one of these might add that spice.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Well, only a few adept spells would be useful on ships. Some changes will probably be made eventually, but profound ship changes aren' likely to be soon.

Although summon undead ship would be so cool.

I thought Kael said an entire new naval system was under development? Perfect time to close this loophole. Why have a unit that simply ignores the new magic system? Take advantage of all that hard work. Arcane Barges as-is are begging to be exploited, IMO.

 

[Halancar]

Short of capturing Druids, I'm not sure. Can they get Vitalize if they follow Fellowship of Leaves?

- Niilo

Yes, a Priest of Leaves upgraded to High Priest (or Inquisitor) can be promoted to Nature III, giving him vitalize.

I even did it with a captured Priest of Leaves once. My other (Ashen Veil) High Priests looked down on him, but he was quite useful. Although i am still unsure how an Ashen Veil Inquisitor can capture a Priest of Leaves and allow him to keep his Leaves power.

 

[QES]

Yes, a Priest of Leaves upgraded to High Priest (or Inquisitor) can be promoted to Nature III, giving him vitalize.

I even did it with a captured Priest of Leaves once. My other (Ashen Veil) High Priests looked down on him, but he was quite useful. Although i am still unsure how an Ashen Veil Inquisitor can capture a Priest of Leaves and allow him to keep his Leaves power.

It does strike me that captured disciple units should be forced to "conform" to the states religion. (Perhaps a conversion to the appropriate disciple unit?)
-Qes

 

[Kael]

I thought Kael said an entire new naval system was under development? Perfect time to close this loophole. Why have a unit that simply ignores the new magic system? Take advantage of all that hard work. Arcane Barges as-is are begging to be exploited, IMO.

Yeah. In fact the only new feature I really want for 0.16 (which I expect to be mostly a polish version) is the improved Naval system that Loki has been working on.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Yeah. In fact the only new feature I really want for 0.16 (which I expect to be mostly a polish version) is the improved Naval system that Loki has been working on.

Pardon me while I .

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It does strike me that captured disciple units should be forced to "conform" to the states religion. (Perhaps a conversion to the appropriate disciple unit?)
-Qes

This is a point where fun and flavor diverge sharply, imo. I'm willing to look the other way if tthe Inquisitors are.

P.S. spoke too soon about the ships, I guess . I know they're being looked into, just no idea of eta.

 

[Quetz]

I just cant let the "little" ritual thing go. Something that you build in 2 turns, or whatever (in a high hammer city) then it has some "global" effect, or just in your culture zone, or whatever?

For example, Wretched Secretions ritual, all mana leaks out of all mages in your culture zone for 2-3 turns (casted promo on all mages.) Or 1 turn. Or something. Then either the building gets auto-destroyed so you can can recast it whenever, or... it doesnt, and you can only do it once per. Requires level X mage in city, effect ends immediately if he leaves. Ashen Veil only. Exocommunication for the Divine version

More early, less extreme rituals would really flesh out this mod, and bring much more of a "magical" feel, IMO. Lots of coding, and obviously not that pressing, but.. what fun.

 

[Xuenay]

Yeah. In fact the only new feature I really want for 0.16 (which I expect to be mostly a polish version) is the improved Naval system that Loki has been working on.

Want to shed any dirty details as a way of preview?

 

[Mithrus]

Ashen Veil and The Order are far too costly for the perks. Personally, I'd like to see each tech after Way of the Wise/Wicked halved. Currently, the other religions cost ~500 research (final tech), while AV/TO costs ~2000. This doesn't even include the extra techs you have to research also. I just don't see the purpose in making these religions so late game. I tried using an different religion in the meantime, but then all your heroes poof the moment you switch religions (Purposely killing them off before switching to get a SotC seems wrong).

Now, assuming the cost it halved, I also wouldn't complain if the heros are push back to the tech after just like the other heros are, since they are stronger than the other "first" heroes.

On a similar note, whoever mentioned AV needs to be made stronger needs to actually play them. They are completely overpowered when used by the Arc/Sum leaders. Considering the priests are also summoners, and can gain exps at an enormous rate (Arc trait+exp promo), I played a game where my friend (playing AV) totally dominate the game from last place with *2* high priests. Basically, he always had 8 wraiths up at all times, LONG before people could effective deal with them. He wouldn't bother capturing cities since he couldn't hold them, and just razed as he went. IMO, it is the summoner trait that may need to be tweaked down a notch. Maybe have a chance that level 3 summoned critters have a small chance of breaking free and go barbarian until they poof.

 

[TheBoatman]

Theology is 3200 cost tech. That time it is possible to have bersekers, war horses, beastmasters.
You can build Rings of Warding since Summoning (1600). Wraiths are undead, which can be countered with undead slaying and destroy undead spell. Those people could have dealt with that. They just weren't trying enough.

Sheim + AV is a synergy for summoning but you have no traits supporting your empire growth and most of your religious buildings cause unhappiness.

 

[Jono]

Silence: Requires AV holy city, happiness and unhappiness are always equal.

 

[TheBoatman]

In the city or overall?

I see AV became quite a discussed topic, with many suggestion. I wonder how this will end.

 

[Jono]

Well, in the city, but it could cause some silencing of AV followers around the globe (or flat land).

 

[TheBoatman]

That sounds fine. Once playing AV I was thinking of a way really to corrupt people. First they will be unhappy but in the end they will be trying to save themselves spying on other people (like under communist regime). However, this would be a confusing mechanism to implement.

EDIT: should it be more different from the tower of complacency?

 

[Mithrus]

Just curious, but why isn't there an early spearmen unit in FfH? This makes the Hippus near gods with their raiders for a good portion of the game. As a player I could use my move 6/commando raiders to zip into the enemy's territory, destroy a few improvements and get out with minimal chance of getting caught. Granted, the AI Hippus tend to just be annoying, but if it ever learned better tactics...

 

[Jono]

Because... and... that's why.

 

[Kael]

Just curious, but why isn't there an early spearmen unit in FfH? This makes the Hippus near gods with their raiders for a good portion of the game. As a player I could use my move 6/commando raiders to zip into the enemy's territory, destroy a few improvements and get out with minimal chance of getting caught. Granted, the AI Hippus tend to just be annoying, but if it ever learned better tactics...

We've opted to allow promotions to fulfill more of the counter role than in vanilla Civ4. This was done both by increasing the speed your units level and the general effectiveness of the promotions. If you want to make an anti-mounted unit, give him the promotion that gives bonus's vs mounted units.

Though to be honest Im not a huge fan of rock/paper/scissors design. I would rather have differing units that have strengths and weaknesses against different tasks then have a cycle of units which beat each other.

So mounted units are cool for exactly the reasons you specify. And the hippus do have a nice threat time because of their UU's (which was probably overpowered before but I like where it sits right now). I wouldn't want anyone to simply mitigate the Hippus advantage by churning out a particular unit type.

So we balance by attempting to make all of the factions equally powerful in different ways. We don't balance by making all options equal, or by rock/paper/scissors. The hippus are powerful. But are they more powerful than the Calabim or the Ljosalfar? More powerful than the Sheaim once they get conjurers or the Luchurip with Barnaxus? Probably not.

Is a mountd unit specilization streatgy for other civs more efficient (we expect it to me more efficient for th Hippus) then a specialization in melee, archer or recon units? Probably not, but we would expect that a plan that utilizaes all of these forces together to be the most viable.

 

[Jono]

I never got why spearmen overpowered mounted units. I mean they can both wield spears...