FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

upthorn said:
If dominate is resisted, the caster actually joins the other side.
The effects of dominate are prevented by the loyalty promotion (if your caster has it, he can cast it without fear of being converted to the side of the enemy, if the target has it, he doesn't get converted even if he fails the resist))


for all spells:
Resistance chance is
20% + spell resist modifier
+ 5% * target level
* 2 if magic resistant
* 2 if hero
- 2% * caster level
- 10% if caster has channelling 2
- 20% if caster has channelling 3 (stacks with channelling 2)
- 10% if caster civ has tower of alteration
Maximum at 98%, and minimum at 5%

Dominate's resist modifier is 30%, so its base resist chance is 50%. With a 20th level caster, that has channelling 2, that a level 1 goon has only a 5% chance to resist.
Furthermore, as your vampire continues to eat the stack, the average level of the target decreases.
Actually, looking at the system, a base resistance chance of 50% (which would bring dominate up to 80% by default) might be reasonable.

(Although it might also be a good idea to limit the number of times a vampire can feed per turn)

Maybe, it was the only unit i possesed that could do this, and he also had loyalty so there was no risk in trying. I didnt realize loyalty did that, but I didnt seem to care. It was awesome, but i can see where this might be exploited. Also Does magic resistance mean immunity? Here you said it was a doubling effect - what about for contagion? I must have contagioned the RED Dragon 2 dozen times (was waiting for the boat with the melee master to arrive) and my liches (all three) kept contagioning him, but he never got hit by it. Is he immune? Or merely resistant?
-Qes
 
Kael said:
I suspect this is a part of the problem with having multiple units selected when casting targeted spells. A vampire feeding on another unit should reagin its ability to attack and a point of movement, but shouldn't regain the ability to cast.

I just ran a test with the multiple units selected fix and I couldn't reproduce it.

He was the ONLy unit in the square. As he was going to take a city by himself. It wasnt a big city, but he was the only unit i had selected when preforming the little attacks. I wish i had a saved game to send you, but he did it I swear.
-Qes
 
QES said:
Maybe, it was the only unit i possesed that could do this, and he also had loyalty so there was no risk in trying. I didnt realize loyalty did that, but I didnt seem to care. It was awesome, but i can see where this might be exploited. Also Does magic resistance mean immunity? Here you said it was a doubling effect - what about for contagion? I must have contagioned the RED Dragon 2 dozen times (was waiting for the boat with the melee master to arrive) and my liches (all three) kept contagioning him, but he never got hit by it. Is he immune? Or merely resistant?
-Qes

Resistance is not immunity.
Immunity should cause the spell to have no effect regardless of resistance.
I believe that the red dragon is Immune.
Magic resistance is a promotion you can get after combat 3 or 4
 
Some people have convinced me that the Ashen Veil is underpowered:
So a couple of things--
1. Make sure that diseased corpses suffer NO negative effects from disease. (just a bug fix really)
2. Increase the spread rates of it (since it doesn't get the order spread bonus, it should spread someon it's own)
3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish. (another couple ways this could be done. One is +1 gold for each veil building in each city. So like the spiral minaret except for each city.)
4. Make it so the veil holy city gives reagents. This way the founder can be assured of being able to build preists.

Also, possibly make both sphener and mardero into evangelists. I think that as angels they should be able to convert cities.
 
loki1232 said:
4. Make it so the veil holy city gives reagents. This way the founder can be assured of being able to build preists

I don't like this idea. I always thought that the ressources availible should influence your strategies, or at least ressources (ecspecially mithril and reagents) should be very rare and be the cause for late game wars to get the best t4 units (thats why I also strongly urge you to remove mithril from the dragons hoard).
 
loki1232 said:
Some people have convinced me that the Ashen Veil is underpowered:
So a couple of things--
1. Make sure that diseased corpses suffer NO negative effects from disease. (just a bug fix really)
2. Increase the spread rates of it (since it doesn't get the order spread bonus, it should spread someon it's own)
3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish. (another couple ways this could be done. One is +1 gold for each veil building in each city. So like the spiral minaret except for each city.)
4. Make it so the veil holy city gives reagents. This way the founder can be assured of being able to build preists.

Also, possibly make both sphener and mardero into evangelists. I think that as angels they should be able to convert cities.

Comon Loki, give in to Chand and Me. Let it be a corrupting force, not merely a boost to power. Degrading the rest of the world is the same as gaining power for one's self. CONVERT with us! One of us! One of us! One of us! One of us...

I still vehemently maintain that the powers of the ashen vale are the subsequent avoidence of the all ecompasing doom that it brings.
-Qes
 
Kael said:
I suspect this is a part of the problem with having multiple units selected when casting targeted spells. A vampire feeding on another unit should reagin its ability to attack and a point of movement, but shouldn't regain the ability to cast.

I just ran a test with the multiple units selected fix and I couldn't reproduce it.

As I understood it, eating a bloodpet gives you the ability to attack again and one point of movement, plus it heals you. Anything else just heals you. So that Vampire Lord could still only take one unit a turn and stay healed, which any uber unit can do if it has march...
 
QES said:
Comon Loki, give in to Chand and Me. Let it be a corrupting force, not merely a boost to power. Degrading the rest of the world is the same as gaining power for one's self. CONVERT with us! One of us! One of us! One of us! One of us...

I still vehemently maintain that the powers of the ashen vale are the subsequent avoidence of the all ecompasing doom that it brings.
-Qes

Listen not to this fool, he knows not of the power of the dark side!
 
I have to agree with Upthorn about Tremor.. that spell is about as useless as they come, compared with some of the other level 3's. Maybe it could wipe out improvements in its radius or something..?

Also, it seems that things are way balanced in the pro-terraforming direction.. its very easy to cover the whole map in forest/grassland with Bloom/Vitalize. I know that it's been said before, but. A couple ideas that dont involve nerfing those..

-Leaving a Fireball in a square assumes you meant to target the tile. Burns down a forest, grassland --> plains, whatever.
-Blight.. sucks. Maybe something like reduces 1 tile for every 3 levels of the caster in a radius, or something..?
-If Ashen Vale got any bonuses from anything, I'd say some kind of slash-and-burn unit for it, but.. :(
 
Quetz said:
I have to agree with Upthorn about Tremor.. that spell is about as useless as they come, compared with some of the other level 3's. Maybe it could wipe out improvements in its radius or something..?
have you ever tried using tremor on a (mostly)1 move army while you mop it up with a hero? : P
 
Ok: Random things I noticed during my last two games (not all balance, some are new ideas, cosmetic or small bugs. I just don't want to sort the notes and post in different threads ;) )

- Got debug events from selecting traits that I already had (financial for varn)

- It would be cool to have a info wich of your already know traits will be lost when you select a new one

- Plot list enhancment buttons should get their background colour from the main programme (I use the tan interface you provided and now have little blue bottons in the interface :( )

- Maybe a border for the ple bottens so that they look like miniature versions of the normal ones

- The desert movement bonus from the malakim is not taken into account for the goto command

- Why can't I remove ruins? Is there something special going on that I missed?

- The AI of cardith lorda should realize that it doesn't need settlements next to his core cities, because they will get huge because of culture anyway

- The +1 Population from Tomb of Succelus seem pretty useless. In my games they are always either unhappy or starving. Suggestion: make it more expensive and have it give +1 :happy: +2 :food: in all cities

- Workers should ignore bararian units that can't enter your borders. It's quite a pain to improve tiles when a hill giant is stuck between your borders and the workers refuse the work for more than a turn.

- PLE unit info should also only show the last promotion to avoid cluttering

- Is the palisade becoming obsolete thing working correctly? After getting construction I could build them any longer (good), but they stayed in cities where I already build them (bad?)

- Double the movement cost for ice (so that it works like deserts now do) and give the doviello a similiar promotion as nomad...

- Let the Dragons Horde give pearls instead of mithril. This would achieve two things: The Horde doesn't take away good causes for late game conquest but still provides a decent feature that normally only trade with the lanun would give (I never saw the AI Lanun have any for trade by the way). Flavour wise I imagin the Dragon would get his claws on pearls the same way he got the gold and the gems, so no problem there

(edit: I just noticed that there are very few actual balance recomendations in this list :o )
 
Sureshot said:
i dont think the dragons horde should give pearls, mithril might be bad, but giving pearls is much worse

Pearls are a happyness ressource like many others are, I don't see like this could be worse than always giving the single player a late game ressource for "free" that standerd maps only have 3 of.
 
late game? we got the dragons horde in turn 60ish in our last game

taking away one civs special instead of a general resource is a bad idea

and the city already gives 2 happy resources, switch it to iron or copper if you want it less powerful, dont ruin someone elses monopoly on it
 
How about something that is unique like the Fruits of Yggdrasil?

Frozen-Vomit said:
PLE unit info should also only show the last promotion to avoid cluttering

I disagree with this. I find it hard to determine which promotion a unit has just by looking at the icons. For example, Shock I and II are quite similar. The I, II, or III that goes within the various mana promotions is very hard to distinguish.

Since starting to use the PLE with FfH, I've come to value the expanded promotion icons within the mouse-over unit info pane.

- Niilo
 
so a wonder that gives 3 happiness to all cities? i dont like it, and now it serves to help people that cant get access to iron/copper or mithril

or actually sure, give it pearls, but also make orthus give you elven and dwarven slaves when you kill him, beating a barbarian should ruin everyones monopoly on everything.
 
Here's a list of thoughts, balance and flavour related, that I've compiled over the last few games:

1) Dragons: +1 LOS (because of size and flying)

2) Increase Dragon Breath weapon STR with dragon's COMBAT, much the same as it works with Mages.

3) Spells: -1 LOS, if possible, and no sight bonus from sentry towers.

4) Settlements and work boats. I heard mention that the AI would spam units in settlements if given the opportunity. However, this problem really needs to be addressed - Kuriotates can get totally gipped if the only water resources they get are not accessible to city hubs.
One possible solution: A Kuriotate-specific work boat unit that is a national unit that you are only allowed 1 of. This may still cause a problem for the AI (e.g., building the boat at the wrong city and not disbanding it), but would be much better than the spamming problem.

5) Settlements, in my experience, build a monument and then stay at Pop 1 with a Bard specialist. Or a priest specialist once you've sacrificed a disciple unit to build a temple. This produces a lot of GP from settlements. Perhaps a penalty to GPP in settlements should be implemented, like -50% or more.

6) Shadows attack workers, allowing one to defend from Shadows by using workers (it's easy enough to get the workers back on your turn). It would make sense to me if Shadows (and Marksmen) were given the option of which unit they attack, using an interface much like the one where you cast a spell on a unit.

7) Krakens: the ability to swim under ice and within rival territory.

8) Acheron - I love giving him boosts - could give a bonus to military production within any city he's situated.

9) A new promotion called Fire Attack, or some-such. This will allow dragons and pyre zombies to get bonuses against units vulnerable to fire, without giving other such units bonuses against them. Oh, and treants should be vulnerable to fire, no?

10) Grid Lines. Wouldn't it make more sense if Grid Lines were for golem units fortified in the city, not units built in the city? This would also give a reason to build it in most/all cities.

11) Chaos Marauder spamming: You can send in a lot of them to an ally's territory and let them wreak havoc without any diplo penalty. I think Marauders should be considered as an attack if you send them into someone else's territory. Or, perhaps, a severe diplo penalty (-4 You've sent Chaos Marauders into my lands).

12) I love the new magic system. However, it is possible to make money off all your mana nodes and avoid the diplo penalties associated with Death and Entropy, and still get the magic benefits. Once you've traded the nodes, you can simply cancel the deal, choose your spell spheres, and then re-negotiate the deal before the turn is over. And, of course, once your arcane unit has level one of a particular sphere, they don't need the mana again to continue advancing in that sphere.

One possibility is to take away the ability to trade mana. I don't know of any other simple solutions to limiting the trade exploit.

As for the diplo penalties, I think it's silly to base it on mana nodes as opposed to mana use. For instance, I can have an entropy node long enough to start a small entropy adept army. Then I trade the mana away for the rest of the game, eliminating the diplo penalty, yet I'm using entropic magic to destroy the world. As well, why don't priests cause this problem? If I follow the Veil, and summon Balors every turn, I should be hit with a diplo penalty (from those civs who don't like it).

- Niilo
 
vorshlumpf said:
Here's a list of thoughts, balance and flavour related, that I've compiled over the last few games:

1) Dragons: +1 LOS (because of size and flying)

2) Increase Dragon Breath weapon STR with dragon's COMBAT, much the same as it works with Mages.

3) Spells: -1 LOS, if possible, and no sight bonus from sentry towers.

4) Settlements and work boats. I heard mention that the AI would spam units in settlements if given the opportunity. However, this problem really needs to be addressed - Kuriotates can get totally gipped if the only water resources they get are not accessible to city hubs.
One possible solution: A Kuriotate-specific work boat unit that is a national unit that you are only allowed 1 of. This may still cause a problem for the AI (e.g., building the boat at the wrong city and not disbanding it), but would be much better than the spamming problem.

5) Settlements, in my experience, build a monument and then stay at Pop 1 with a Bard specialist. Or a priest specialist once you've sacrificed a disciple unit to build a temple. This produces a lot of GP from settlements. Perhaps a penalty to GPP in settlements should be implemented, like -50% or more.

6) Shadows attack workers, allowing one to defend from Shadows by using workers (it's easy enough to get the workers back on your turn). It would make sense to me if Shadows (and Marksmen) were given the option of which unit they attack, using an interface much like the one where you cast a spell on a unit.

7) Krakens: the ability to swim under ice and within rival territory.

8) Acheron - I love giving him boosts - could give a bonus to military production within any city he's situated.

9) A new promotion called Fire Attack, or some-such. This will allow dragons and pyre zombies to get bonuses against units vulnerable to fire, without giving other such units bonuses against them. Oh, and treants should be vulnerable to fire, no?

10) Grid Lines. Wouldn't it make more sense if Grid Lines were for golem units fortified in the city, not units built in the city? This would also give a reason to build it in most/all cities.

11) Chaos Marauder spamming: You can send in a lot of them to an ally's territory and let them wreak havoc without any diplo penalty. I think Marauders should be considered as an attack if you send them into someone else's territory. Or, perhaps, a severe diplo penalty (-4 You've sent Chaos Marauders into my lands).

12) I love the new magic system. However, it is possible to make money off all your mana nodes and avoid the diplo penalties associated with Death and Entropy, and still get the magic benefits. Once you've traded the nodes, you can simply cancel the deal, choose your spell spheres, and then re-negotiate the deal before the turn is over. And, of course, once your arcane unit has level one of a particular sphere, they don't need the mana again to continue advancing in that sphere.

One possibility is to take away the ability to trade mana. I don't know of any other simple solutions to limiting the trade exploit.

As for the diplo penalties, I think it's silly to base it on mana nodes as opposed to mana use. For instance, I can have an entropy node long enough to start a small entropy adept army. Then I trade the mana away for the rest of the game, eliminating the diplo penalty, yet I'm using entropic magic to destroy the world. As well, why don't priests cause this problem? If I follow the Veil, and summon Balors every turn, I should be hit with a diplo penalty (from those civs who don't like it).

- Niilo

I agree about mana trading, Mana simply shouldnt be on the table to trade ever at all, nichts.

The "fire producing" wonder, that produces 3 fire mana (and requires one) maybe should produce 2 fire mana and something else. As more than 3 mana (at this point) isnt a boon, and if we kill the trade option, that 4th mana is a waste.
I was thinking 2 fire mana and maybe a "free forge" in every city. That'd be pretty awesome.
-Qes
 
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