FfH2 0.15 Balance Recommendations

[Chandrasekhar]

The point I was trying to make is just that being able to capture elven workers is not unbalanced. I didn't mean to say anything about the usefulness of elven workers to the Civ that can build them. I believe that the incredibly slow speed of elven slaves balances out the fact that those Civs that capture them can borrow their Civ's effects.

And yes, if you have time to go about improving your land with captured elven slaves, you've probably won the game already. Doublewins seem to be common in FfH, but if someone was to build an armageddon wonder, perhaps it would cease to be such a doublewin...

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Infernals living in harmony with nature might be a bit out there, but even the Calabim and Balseraphs might be able to manage it, given a little kick start. Wasn't there some interesting story some fellow wrote about tree hugging Calabim? The gameplay really isn't an issue, in my opinion. I mean, 12 turns to build a cottage...

For my money the forested cottage or gem-finding mines should stem from the religions not from the races. That's were the loopholes originate. Then 'tree-hugging Calabim' could indeed occur, so long as they were gen-U-ine tree-huggers. Ashen Vale worshippers who happened to capture a few elf slaves do not qualify. That is why I don't think the current situation 'makes sense'.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I see where you're coming from. Of course, the religions also give bonuses to those terrains (Leaves and Runes do, at least), but combine that with the race-specific bonuses, and you have some pretty powerful synergy. Kael and Co. seem to intend it that way, though, and I guess everything is alright within limits.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

The point I was trying to make is just that being able to capture elven workers is not unbalanced. I didn't mean to say anything about the usefulness of elven workers to the Civ that can build them. I believe that the incredibly slow speed of elven slaves balances out the fact that those Civs that capture them can borrow their Civ's effects.

And yes, if you have time to go about improving your land with captured elven slaves, you've probably won the game already. Doublewins seem to be common in FfH, but if someone was to build an armageddon wonder, perhaps it would cease to be such a doublewin...

Oh I agree with you on the balance issues. And on the frerquency of doublewin, and the desireability to see some Armegeddon shake-ups. But if we go back to the original post we see the issue is one of "flavor".

It's highly exploitable and far from funny. At least make it an option, IMO it makes no sense at all but if someone finds it funny then they can play with it.

How does it make no sense at all that capturing elves means that you can get them to do your work for you?

I agree with onedreamer that it makes no sense that a small enslaved work team can suddenly allow rapacious races to live in harmony with nature. Thus it spoils the flavor. 'Flavor-first' players will agree I'm sure.

I know I am out of character here in discussing the flavor over balance.

 

[QES]

QES, you made a similar appeal for a change to Drill because you felt archery units were under-utlized. The Dev team has responded so far not by changing Drill, but by reducing the beaker requirement to develop archery forces. I think the same sort of adjustment is due for mounted units. There was an entire thread devoted to maing the mounted branch of the tech tree more appealing. I htink this is where the real issue lies.

Were more archery units seen more often on the field of battle, we'd see more examples of them fighting in all their 5* 3 Drill glory. Were more mounted units seen on the battlefields, we'd learn to covet the unsefullness of 5 Combat 3 Flanking cavalry. I don't think the problem lies in the units or the promotions themselves.

I suspect the issue lies in a tech tree that too often steers one down the same paths. Every nations will want the ability to work Copper and Iron, so everyone ends up with melee units. The same comment does not apply to the archery or mounted tech lines. The tech is not pursued, the units never get built, they never train up, and they don't get as many chances to shine as they might otherwise deserve. For my money I'd like to see tech tree thnking get a lot of Dev brainjuice at this stage. Then lets see how the units fight once they start appearing in more representative numbers. But that's just me.

You may have a point here that I didnt consider. But then the gameplay style differenciation is really because of numbers of units instead of types. This IS a significant difference. But assuming i Played an equally skilled player, and perhaps through some sort of trickery, we were playing the exact same civ, and he decided to constnatly promote his units in Combat, and I decided to promote mine in WIthdraw or drill - are you honestly telling me that he and I will fight (when at war) to a stalemate? Giving the equality of all other circumstances? I think not.

Now. Before the memory police come to take me away, I DO NOT want blanace of this kind. The purpose of this FfH has been clearly been said not to make things equal, but instead very unique and different. So, all things being equal, they should not necessarily add up. I'm in agreement with that.

But what I WOULD like, is a viable option - perhaps excluded to merely a few select units in a few select civs (which is fine by me) - in which I can forgo combat promtions in favor of others. Id love to have an army that is based on the drill promotion. Or a horse riding cavalry force that is 100% withdraw based. Simply put, i dont have to conquer the world with it - but Id rather not have my army summarily squashed because i was a "fool" to neglect the combat promotion.

I guess thats my only wish. I dont want to be a fool for NOT selecting Combats I-V. Id like to specialize in Drill, or Withdraw, without basically shooting my armed forces in the feet.

ANYTHING - that gets me to that point, is cool.
-Qes

 

[Grey Fox]

But assuming i Played an equally skilled player, and perhaps through some sort of trickery, we were playing the exact same civ

This is very possible in MP. (Every player can use the same leader)

 

[QES]

This is very possible in MP. (Every player can use the same leader)

My point Is a very moot one, as i dont play MP. But hopefully no one will notice that. And since I'm posting a thread about it, I'll assume no one will.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

you can choose choose a game with 18 of the same civ in single player custom games too

 

[Nikis-Knight]

QES, You can also set up a hotseat game and play each player yourself. I am assuming that you are as good as yourself, of course, and I may be going out on a limb.

The reduced beaker cost is due to, as Sureshot and others pointed out, Bowyers being overpriced, compared to Smelting + Iron working price. I don't think drill entered into the equation.

I wouldn't mind seeing a tweak to the drill series, perhaps as simple as letting another promotion branch off of it at some point. It seems that combat line opens up so many other options, it's silly not to start with combat I.

 

[QES]

QES, You can also set up a hotseat game and play each player yourself. I am assuming that you are as good as yourself, of course, and I may be going out on a limb.

I wish this was true, but i totally cheat. IM a bastard to play with, because when im not looking i take extra turns. I once caught myself trying to engage in negotiations with myself to try to band together an alliance to defeat me once and for all, only later to turn on myself, backstabbing the alliance and totally haning myself out to dry. Not cool. So i refused to play with myself until i learned some gaming ethics.

The reduced beaker cost is due to, as Sureshot and others pointed out, Bowyers being overpriced, compared to Smelting + Iron working price. I don't think drill entered into the equation.

I wouldn't mind seeing a tweak to the drill series, perhaps as simple as letting another promotion branch off of it at some point. It seems that combat line opens up so many other options, it's silly not to start with combat I.

Well thats cool to know.
All I really want is the feesable ability to have whole armies with promotions that arnt combat specific. I like the idea of things buildng off of drill and withdraw the best. But what?
-Qes

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I'd say blitz, but it comes so late and some of the best archery units start with it anyway and it's less useful for archers.

 

[QES]

I'd say blitz, but it comes so late and some of the best archery units start with it anyway and it's less useful for archers.

I agree about blitz, I think that "Commando" should be withdraw.

But what "others" can we come up with?

Mobility Should perhaps be in Withdraw lines - And perhaps mobility is necessary for blitz (a movement 1 unit with blitz is sort of ...well, useless)

How about for drill promotions something like:

Hail of Fire <Requires Drill IV>
Opponant gains 20% withdraw, and gains 10% withdraw chance every combat round. (The idea being that it forces the opponant to retreat from combat).

Poisoned Weapons <Requires Drill III>
Opponant takes X% damage per combat round, where X is the number of that round in combat.

Nock and Loose <Requires Drill II>
Unit has 100% withdraw after FS rounds.

One shot, One kill <Requires Marksman, Drill V>
When in combat with another FS unit (unit with FS even if after odds it gets 0 FS) Damage done = 100%

For Withdraw

Route <Requires Withdraw I>
Opponant given 50% Withdraw rate.

Pinch <Requires WIthdraw II>
Opponant takes double damage per round.

Harrie(sp?) <Requires Withdraw II>
Combat lasts only 3 rounds.

Trample <Requires Withdraw II, Combat II>
If opponant "retreats" it is instead instantly destroyed.

Charge <Requires Withdraw I, Combat I>
+50% Vs Archery, Melee, and Recon Units


-Qes

 

[Gamestation]

What if there were units that could completely negate any combat promotion. Of course these units would not be the strongest of all units so that no one would be yelling out "BROKEN!!!" but they would make the player think about producing some units using a different promotion set than combat I-V.

I should also add that the reason I believe combat promotions are always the first to get chosen is because there is no punishment for going all combat promotions. In vanilla, combat promotions were not the best because 1. city raider is stronger and more useful and 2. combat promotions does close to zilch in most cases compared to a specific promotion that is made just before combat. In FFH just choose combat promotions because you can double the strength of your unit for all situations and promotions tend to come more easily in FFH than vanilla when you can get up to 100 xp from barbarians instead of only 10 xp.

 

[Sureshot]

I agree about blitz, I think that "Commando" should be withdraw.

But what "others" can we come up with?

Mobility Should perhaps be in Withdraw lines - And perhaps mobility is necessary for blitz (a movement 1 unit with blitz is sort of ...well, useless)

How about for drill promotions something like:

Hail of Fire <Requires Drill IV>
Opponant gains 20% withdraw, and gains 10% withdraw chance every combat round. (The idea being that it forces the opponant to retreat from combat).

Poisoned Weapons <Requires Drill III>
Opponant takes X% damage per combat round, where X is the number of that round in combat.

Nock and Loose <Requires Drill II>
Unit has 100% withdraw after FS rounds.

One shot, One kill <Requires Marksman, Drill V>
When in combat with another FS unit (unit with FS even if after odds it gets 0 FS) Damage done = 100%

For Withdraw

Route <Requires Withdraw I>
Opponant given 50% Withdraw rate.

Pinch <Requires WIthdraw II>
Opponant takes double damage per round.

Harrie(sp?) <Requires Withdraw II>
Combat lasts only 3 rounds.

Trample <Requires Withdraw II, Combat II>
If opponant "retreats" it is instead instantly destroyed.

Charge <Requires Withdraw I, Combat I>
+50% Vs Archery, Melee, and Recon Units


-Qes

wow nice ideas, i had no idea you were capable of such! lol

i hadnt realized that combat strengths were doubled over normal, in that case drills should atleast be doubled, and blitz branching off of it makes more sense (and is more useful, first strikes really makes blitzing easier since you take less damage usually)

the rest of the ideas could be fun too

 

[Grey Fox]

wow nice ideas, i had no idea you were capable of such! lol

i hadnt realized that combat strengths were doubled over normal, in that case drills should atleast be doubled, and blitz branching off of it makes more sense (and is more useful, first strikes really makes blitzing easier since you take less damage usually)

the rest of the ideas could be fun too

It wouldnt be good with doubled Drill. I mean a unit with 7-10 first strikes? Instead They should give other bonuses, like small amounts of Collateral Damage, or something. And/Or lead to more interesting promotions like suggested.

I dont really like the one-shot kill promotion...

And if you apply withdrawal to your opponent it would only work when you are defending.

I love Harrie and I like Pinch (sounds a bit strong though), and if Trample would be nice if you could get the enemy to flee (withdrawal when defending doesnt work, so applying withdrawal on them wouldnt work).

I also like charge, but I feel it should have some small negative built in.

 

[QES]

wow nice ideas, i had no idea you were capable of such! lol

i hadnt realized that combat strengths were doubled over normal, in that case drills should atleast be doubled, and blitz branching off of it makes more sense (and is more useful, first strikes really makes blitzing easier since you take less damage usually)

the rest of the ideas could be fun too

Well, in a hurricane you eventually get to the calm center. So i was bound to have an idea you liked eventually. Still, it could have been that one with the gerbil, lamacil - 18, three grannie smith apples, the tube of toothpaste, a coat hanger, and the first edition copy of grapes of wrath while listening to the star spangeled banner played by a deaf trumpeteer...but no.
-Qes

 

[QES]

It wouldnt be good with doubled Drill. I mean a unit with 7-10 first strikes? Instead They should give other bonuses, like small amounts of Collateral Damage, or something. And/Or lead to more interesting promotions like suggested.

I dont really like the one-shot kill promotion...

And if you apply withdrawal to your opponent it would only work when you are defending.

I love Harrie and I like Pinch (sounds a bit strong though), and if Trample would be nice if you could get the enemy to flee (withdrawal when defending doesnt work, so applying withdrawal on them wouldnt work).

I also like charge, but I feel it should have some small negative built in.

Well, crap. One should be able to force the enemy to Withdraw out of their space. One movement. Then everything else works.
And how about -10% chance of withdrawl (dedication to the attack)
-Qes

 

[Gamestation]

And if you apply withdrawal to your opponent it would only work when you are defending.

Hold on a moment there what about Loki's retreat ability? Could that be used to apply the withdrawal on defense?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Withdraw only works when the unit would die normally. It doesn't work when the unit gets to the point where one more hit would kill it. So giving it to your enemy or taking it away from yourself is always a bad thing. Just thought I'd point that out.

Now, if you could get your enemy to retreat when they have 10/20/50 hp left, or after a certain number of combat rounds, that might be nice.

 

[Sureshot]

i really like the enemy withdraw thing, would add some interesting battlefield tactics

i also think mobility should be on the withdraw tree, so that its not so easily gotten. i personally love using mobility, but its part of the reason the horse techs are pointless until you have gotten everything else and a wicked economy