FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback

[katika]

Me, anytime, any day. The Arcane Trait is one of my favourites. +10% science, and superb spellcasters, which are very powerful and all-around units in the hands of the human player. Expansive is also a good trait if you get your hands on Orders from Heaven before building heroes (very doable, since FoL heroes are not so early ones), convert to The Order momentarily and become good to be able to use Public Healers at no cost. Even just Protect the Meek at no cost is a good bonus alone too, and won't cause considerably higher diplo penalties with evil civs that being Good and with Public Healers does.

+10% Science? That would be nice, but I don't think arcane gives research a boost.

 

[onedreamer]

@Katika: it used too... I think ?

Just a thought:
Mercurians get Body mana in their palace, Body mana provides this spells:
Haste, Regeneration, Stoneskin. All these spells work only on living units. Now, since the main part of Mercurians' army will be of Angels, which aren't living, Body mana doesn't really have a good sinergy with Mercurians.

 

[uberfish]

I always assumed he was ready for battle, inside and outside his borders. Comparing leaders between civs will not get you far with Kael - its the overall balance that is the primary concern. For myself, since Amelanchier is my favourite elven leader (from a mechanics stand-point), my vote is that he's just fine.

Well if you just have raider, you can maximize it by constantly going on the offensive and fighting in enemy territory. If you just have defender, you can maximize it by turtling up and defending. The two traits have negative synergy because focusing on one directly detracts from the other.

Basically it feels to me like Arendel has 2 traits and the other two elf leaders have 1.5.

 

[Go Boks]

My main concern is that Thessa is the undesired leader of the three, by a large margin.

Is there anyone who would pick her first?

- Niilo

Me, anytime, any day. The Arcane Trait is one of my favourites. +10% science, and superb spellcasters, which are very powerful and all-around units in the hands of the human player. Expansive is also a good trait if you get your hands on Orders from Heaven before building heroes (very doable, since FoL heroes are not so early ones), convert to The Order momentarily and become good to be able to use Public Healers at no cost. Even just Protect the Meek at no cost is a good bonus alone too, and won't cause considerably higher diplo penalties with evil civs that being Good and with Public Healers does.

I agree. I ALWAYS pick Thessa when playing Ljosalfar. Expansive is less useful if you have FoL as parts of it are kind of redundant, but I don't care as Arcane is my favorite trait. Plus, the non-health bonuses of Expansive are useful.

Speaking about leaders and their traits ... there are quite some inconsistencies. The Khazad are a good example:

Arturus Thorne
He's getting a production bonus for lighthouses (Organized trait). Are you kidding me? Lighthouses and Dwarves?

Kandros Fir
Through his Aggressive trait he gets a production bonus for stables and shipyards. For some reason I'm getting the impression that FFH Dwarves must be quite some good sailors.

But in earnest: I think the problem in most cases isn't the trait as a whole but parts of it like shown above. Maybe someone should invent a more modular way to describe a leader and its capabilities. An easy way would be to split the production bonuses from the actual traits and put them in a third, more fitting one, for each leader. Just a suggestion.

I know Dwarves don't traditionally have much of a seafaring spirit in your typical fantasy setting, but, IRL, navies requires lots and lots of capital. The Khazad, as Dwarves do in most fantasy settings, have lots and lots of capital. I always have huge navies when I play as the Khazad. Combined with the fact that I always take over my home continent, I am pretty unassailable (not that it stops the AI from sending me XP bonuses...).

 

[vorshlumpf]

I agree. I ALWAYS pick Thessa when playing Ljosalfar. Expansive is less useful if you have FoL as parts of it are kind of redundant, but I don't care as Arcane is my favorite trait. Plus, the non-health bonuses of Expansive are useful.

It's good to know that Thessa gets some love. I suppose I'm not a big fan of the Arcane trait because it doesn't give me anything that I can readily see.

- Niilo

 

[uberfish]

Interesting to read people's opinions of the various traits. While the caster units are powerful and I make extensive use of mages and archmages, I have always considered Arcane to be one of the weaker traits personally. I train a few adepts early using Apprenticeship, and by the time I get up to Sorcery and Strength of Will taking a balanced research path, they have enough xp to upgrade. (Most of my games then conclude by running a hasted hero-archmage stack around destroying any remaining opposition.)

 

[onedreamer]

I double checked and I noticed that the Arcane trait doesn't provide +10% science anymore: I didn't notice this, and I'm kinda disappointed. Reasons for this ?
Dwarves are actually quite good sailors in the fantasy settings I know of, but they use airships (dirigible, zeppelin).

edit: lol, probably Arcane gave bonus to science only my dreams.

 

[Ringtailed]

edit: lol, probably Arcane gave bonus to science only my dreams.

well I don't know about your dreams, but IIRC the Arcane trait gave +10% science in that Warhammer mod. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

 

[Go Boks]

Dwarves are actually quite good sailors in the fantasy settings I know of, but they use airships (dirigible, zeppelin).

That would make them good pilots...

 

[onedreamer]

they aren't piloting jets or boeings... those are flying ships. They could very well be built in a shipyard.

 

[Go Boks]

Last time I checked, dirigibles and zeppelins have never been built in a ship yard...

Either way, I think you are misunderstanding a metaphor because you are from Italy.

Anyway, this is my last post on the matter, as I have experienced your style before and I'm not interested in a flame war.

 

[onedreamer]

ah well, it's fantasy stuff, not real life zeppelins... but I was just nitpicking, not flaming... np.

 

[Jean Elcard]

However, I'm still not happy with ship building sailing dwarves. If there really would be flying ships in FFH, I would think about it again, but there aren't any. Somehow it appears to me, that training yards, taverns and stuff would be more fitting ...

 

[onedreamer]

yeah, that would need a new trait. But dwarves would still be able to build shipyards and ships, so I don't think it would change much from a flavor perspective.

 

[wig]

Religious Discipline might be the most unbalanced Civic in the game. Most notably it synergizes with Altar of Luonnotar, creating a power loop. It allows an unlimited number of Hammer producing Priests, which in turn spawn more Great Priests to build further Altar Stages and quickly climb the religious tech ladder.

This loop has been documented, and by itself it's a powerful strategy. However, the loop alone isn't what makes the civic unbalancing; the real kicker is that Religious Discipline gives +10% in all cities. This is the same base bonus that the Scholarship civic provides! (without the unlimited sages and free per specialist, of course).

For both flavor and game balance, Religious Discipline should have the opposite effect on research. I suggest a -20% penalty to the civic; I would suggest an even harsher penalty, but I think that might drive the unrest in this forum a little too high.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

well, the loop will be lessened with the next version.

42. First 2 levels of the Altar of the Luonnotar (annointed and blessed) +1 GPP points removed.
43. Blessed Altar of the Luonnotar (2nd stage) +1 hammer from priests removed.
44. Final Altar of the Luonnotar (last stage) +2 hammers from priests increased to +3.

Or slowed at least. maybe it will be enough. I could see lowering the +10%, though, especially after we incorporate partial (decimal) values for beakers.

 

[wig]

well, the loop will be lessened with the next version.

Or slowed at least. maybe it will be enough. I could see lowering the +10%, though, especially after we incorporate partial (decimal) values for beakers.

I really don't have a problem with the loop. Its a powerful strategy, but it also has a unique style to it; I think it represents the single-minded fervor that you might find in a highly religious society pretty well.

What doesn't fit is the bonus. A civ devoted to religious devotions isn't going to be exerting extra energy to magical or technological advances (or if they are, that should be incorporated into bonuses for that particular religion).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Religious Discipline might be the most unbalanced Civic in the game. Most notably it synergizes with Altar of Luonnotar, creating a power loop. It allows an unlimited number of Hammer producing Priests, which in turn spawn more Great Priests to build further Altar Stages and quickly climb the religious tech ladder.

This loop has been documented, and by itself it's a powerful strategy. However, the loop alone isn't what makes the civic unbalancing; the real kicker is that Religious Discipline gives +10% in all cities. This is the same base bonus that the Scholarship civic provides! (without the unlimited sages and free per specialist, of course).

For both flavor and game balance, Religious Discipline should have the opposite effect on research. I suggest a -20% penalty to the civic; I would suggest an even harsher penalty, but I think that might drive the unrest in this forum a little too high.

Remember that it's a high upkeep civic. Though I do think that scholarship ought to give +20% research...

 

[vorshlumpf]

I rarely use either Religious Discipline or Scholarship. In fact, I've only used either once, and that was when I really wanted a Great Prophet (and I had gotten about 6 Great Generals in a row), so I switched to Rel. Disc. to max out a city on Priests.

- Niilo

 

[Go Boks]

creating a power loop

Is that anything like a giggle loop?