FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback

[Chandrasekhar]

This doesn't follow as logically as the Sheaim going for AV/Bannor going for Order. In fact, as an evil religion, it doesn't follow that the neutral Lanun will go for it at all.

Just like the fact that Runes is a good religion means that the dwarves shouldn't go for it?

The Lanun are by far the most attuned to the Overlords, both in gameplay and flavor (with the possible exception of the Balseraphs).

 

[Saien]

Just like the fact that Runes is a good religion means that the dwarves shouldn't go for it?

It's not my decision, but there's three differences:

1) The difference between evil and neutral is far greater than good and neutral in FfH. This is backed up by lore that I've read.
2) The dwarves have RoK in their freaking history, what with being created by Kilmorph.
3) They start with Crafting, the first step toward rushing for the religion.

The Lanun are by far the most attuned to the Overlords, both in gameplay and flavor.

Name two ways that the Lanun are more attuned to OO than any other civ. They don't start with exploration to aid in rushing for it. They don't get any special benefit from slavery (unlike the Balseraphs). They're a different alignment. Just because the Lanun are on the water, doesn't mean the fish are talking to them.

 

[katika]

It's not my decision, but there's three differences:

1) The difference between evil and neutral is far greater than good and neutral in FfH. This is backed up by lore that I've read.
2) The dwarves have RoK in their freaking history, what with being created by Kilmorph.
3) They start with Crafting, the first step toward rushing for the religion.



Name two ways that the Lanun are more attuned to OO than any other civ. They don't start with exploration to aid in rushing for it. They don't get any special benefit from slavery (unlike the Balseraphs). They're a different alignment. Just because the Lanun are on the water, doesn't mean the fish are talking to them.

1) OO is in Hannah's story/history.
2) The Lanun start with Seafaring which allows them to research fishing immediately, thus it is also a first step toward rushing for OO.

 

[Sureshot]

sorry, but (like katika beat me to on some) theres actually several synergies and similarities:

1) Hemah, the OO hero, can learn Tsunami, which is good for making more water tiles in the world
2) Slavery is vital towards getting production out of the seas, what with water tiles only providing food and commerce.
3) Lanun start with Seafaring, which allows them to research Fishing without Exploration, so they are like runes for your point 3) for runes
4) many water walking units and a water monster goes a long way to protecting a sea based empire
5) both lanun and OO provide water mana

theres prolly others, but those are the first ones i think of, and thats enough

 

[Saien]

1) OO is in Hannah's story/history.

True, but lorewise, she doesn't know this.

1) Hemah, the OO hero, can learn Tsunami, which is good for making more water tiles in the world

This has nothing to do with Hemah. Any arch mage can do this with appropriate access to water mana. Hemah himself would require the water mana.

2) Slavery is vital towards getting production out of the seas, what with water tiles only providing food and commerce.

This is true for every civ. Lanun receive no special benefit. Only the Balseraphs do. In fact, since slaves don't hasten unit production (like work boats), and Lanun have less to do on land than other civs, I'd suggest Lanun get less benefit than others, if only marginally less.

3) Lanun start with Seafaring, which allows them to research Fishing without Exploration, so they are like runes for your point 3) for runes

Ok, they're on exactly the same footing as the Calabim.

4) many water walking units and a water monster goes a long way to protecting a sea based empire

And yet, they can't make water walking Eidolons, unless they switch to AV and then back to OO. So this benefit isn't even special for the OO, Lanun mages would have access to water walking regardless.

Which again just shows how the religion isn't attuned to Lanun. They'd have to play silly games (which the AI wouldn't do) just to achieve full benefits.

5) both lanun and OO provide water mana

The most valid point. Weakened by the fact that water is pretty damn weak. Free Spring for all adepts is nice for fighting hell terrain, but nothing grandiose. Its best benefit only found if you improve a mana node to water for a third, and even then only really to summoners.

Clearly, the Lanun are as good a fit for OO as Ljolsfar is for FoL, Sheaim is for AV, and Bannor is for Order! It's all crystal clear!

 

[Sureshot]

sorry, but you take a fact for runes and say its valid, then say the exact same fact for OO isnt valid, you have no objectivity. and if you're dissecting a post with your own points interjecting every line then you must even be having trouble convincing yourself.

 

[kenken244]

the khazad start out as neutral and yet plenty of people say they go perfectly with RoK but you argue that its not the same for OO and lanun?

 

[Saien]

sorry, but you take a fact for runes and say its valid, then say the exact same fact for OO isnt valid, you have no objectivity.

No, I'm taking the whole as a ... whole. I don't reject RoK/Khazad solely because of the alignment, and I don't reject OO/Lanun solely because of the alignment. However, you want them to be linked solely because they're on boats, so apparently I have no objectivity.

In truth, I don't think any civ should be hardwired for a specific religion, but rather that their AI controlled tendencies should move them toward the lore appropriate ones. In the case of Sheaim/Bannor I find it to be an error when they don't move toward their respective religions. Nothing screams "problem" to me about either the Lanun not racing toward OO, or the Balseraphs/Calabim doing so.

and if you're dissecting a post with your own points interjecting every line then you must even be having trouble convincing yourself.

No, it's called quoting. It's what we people in this in-tar-web thing do.

 

[Sureshot]

its unfortunate for you that being sarcastic and unobjective doesn't make you right.

OO tied to lanun is as correct as runes tied to khazad or leaves tied to elves or the order being tied to the mercurians (lanun/OO makes more sense than basium/order in some ways).

making points doesn't convince you, even when they are matched in a general way to points you yourself have presented. please don't take this all to be an attempt to convince you, ive seen thats not going to happen, but showing the facts of the matter can only be helpful to others who may be confused and more open minded, so here goes:

from the main FFH2 thread about civs:

Lanun
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Water)

Khazad
Scheduled for: Light
Alignment: Neutral (Earth)

Mercurians (minor Civ)
Scheduled for: Fire
Alignment: Good (Life)

now guess what manas are provided by the holy city wonders (OO:water, leaves:nature, runes:earth, order:law).

as far as AI behaviours are concerned, its hard to say what they should do, but runes/khazad is no more valid than OO/lanun

the reason the AIs should rush towards specific religions is because its in their benefit to get a religion fast that has synergies for them, or else they'll be beaten to it (holy cities are a decent bonus).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Lacking a civilization composed entirely of giant mind-controlling octopi, I think the Lanun are as close to the OO-default Civ as we can get.

 

[Saien]

OO tied to lanun is as correct as runes tied to khazad

Perhaps, but Runes tied to Khazad is and Lanun tied to OO would be a change.

or leaves tied to elves

Absolutely not.

or the order being tied to the mercurians (lanun/OO makes more sense than basium/order in some ways).

A couple problems.
1) The Mercurians are not tied to Order. In fact, I'd be surprised if there is ever a game where the Mercurians are are created where the Order does not already exist.
2) The Bannor who are tied to Order have Sabathiel as a leader, who is/was an angel in Junil's service.

making points doesn't convince you, even when they are matched in a general way to points you yourself have presented.

Because I don't agree with most of them, and the few that are real don't make a cohesive whole in the same manner as Ljolsfar/FoL, Sheaim/AV, Bannor/Order.

Lets see if I can quote this correctly: Just because you don't sway me doesn't mean I'm not listening, I just don't agree with you.

as far as AI behaviours are concerned, its hard to say what they should do, but runes/khazad is no more valid than OO/lanun

If there was only one aspect, their alignment, to be viewed then I would agree with you. But there's a wide selection of reasons, not the smallest being that Kilmorph created the Dwarves, that sway me. If octopus heads formed the Lanun from the waters of the sea (or,uhm, dreamed them) then that would sway me as well. For another reason, if you really need one, Arete improves mine production. Nothing about OO improves sea production.

As it is, I'm surprised its not the Luchuirp - or better yet both - that are rushing RoK.

the reason the AIs should rush towards specific religions is because its in their benefit to get a religion fast that has synergies for them, or else they'll be beaten to it (holy cities are a decent bonus).

There is an entirely different statement between saying the AIs should rush toward a religion, choosing one appropriate for their specific AI personalities, and that the AI should rush toward one specific religion. As currently coded, the AIs will rush regardless of if the religion is already founded or if their leaders personalities are randomized, etc.

 

[Saien]

Lacking a civilization composed entirely of giant mind-controlling octopi, I think the Lanun are as close to the OO-default Civ as we can get.

And why do we need a OO default civ?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

And why do we need a OO default civ?

'Cause the way things are, about half of the evil Civs convert to neutrality before the Veil gets founded. This, combined with the late founding of the OO, means that in the good vs. evil wars that happen as the AC rises, the good side often has twice the number of civilization as the evil side. It ends up being not so much of a battle as a slaughter. To even the playing field, it makes sense make the OO as much of an early-game force as Runes of Kilmorph is, so that some of the good Civs convert to neutrality as well.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If there was only one aspect, their alignment, to be viewed then I would agree with you. But there's a wide selection of reasons, not the smallest being that Kilmorph created the Dwarves, that sway me. If octopus heads formed the Lanun from the waters of the sea (or,uhm, dreamed them) then that would sway me as well. For another reason, if you really need one, Arete improves mine production. Nothing about OO improves sea production.

Keep in mind that the Overlords are strongest, flavor-wise, on the open ocean, and the Lanun are the only water-themed Civ. The tie between the Overlords and the Lanun is more comparable to that between Cerunnos and the elves. Also, the Lanun can get 3 food from water tiles, which arguably makes slavery a better option for them (because of the excess food + the decent commerce).

As it is, I'm surprised its not the Luchuirp - or better yet both - that are rushing RoK.

Actually, the Luchuirp will tend to found Runes early if the Khazad fail to.

 

[Saien]

'Cause the way things are, about half of the evil Civs convert to neutrality before the Veil gets founded.

Ageed this is a problem, but IMO better solved by not allowing AIs to adopt religions that change their alignment. Otherwise we'll just create a situation where half the good AIs have converted to neutrality before the Order gets founded, and then we're looking for another bandaid, etc.

BTW: It seems this problem is created as a holdover from vanilla. In vanilla religion doesn't really matter and the AI will automatically switch to the first religion that infects one of its cities. If you could somehow get AV first and transferred it to Bannor cities, they would switch.

Actually, the Luchuirp will tend to found Runes early if the Khazad fail to.

Perhaps, but if so it is because the AI is tuned - either purposefully or accidentally - for that effect. There is no hardcoded rush for the Luchuirp.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Ageed this is a problem, but IMO better solved by not allowing AIs to adopt religions that change their alignment. Otherwise we'll just create a situation where half the good AIs have converted to neutrality before the Order gets founded, and then we're looking for another bandaid, etc.

That might work. It'd still leave 3 of the five religions for each civilization to adopt. Maybe they should still occasionally convert to a religion that would change their alignment, but they should be far more reluctant than they are now to do so.

BTW: It seems this problem is created as a holdover from vanilla. In vanilla religion doesn't really matter and the AI will automatically switch to the first religion that infects one of its cities. If you could somehow get AV first and transferred it to Bannor cities, they would switch.

Well, as things stand, you need to convert several Bannor cities before they'd convert to the Veil as a whole, while only one Order city would cause them to convert. They are weighted, it's just that the weighting still allows for a lot of strange scenarios.

Perhaps, but if so it is because the AI is tuned - either purposefully or accidentally - for that effect. There is no hardcoded rush for the Luchuirp.

But they still do prioritize it higher than other Civs do.

 

[Go Boks]

Is it just me, or are both RoK and OO neutral religions? Why do people think there is an alignment issue with Lanun (neutral) and OO (neutral)?

Anyway, OO and Lanun obviously make sense. Balseraphs do too, but not as much.

 

[Saien]

Is it just me, or are both RoK and OO neutral religions? Why do people think there is an alignment issue with Lanun (neutral) and OO (neutral)?

There is only one neutral religion. This has been posted by Kael.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I can totally disagree. Lanun and OO are not even a close one another. I would go further and say they are the opposite flavour wise.

Keep in mind that the Overlords are strongest, flavor-wise, on the open ocean, and the Lanun are the only water-themed Civ.

That does not mean they are the same. They like both water and are meant for water domination but they do it for 2 completely different reasons! [and in two different ways too] OO are flavoured on the Cuthulu stories, on mindless obedience and insanity. Luan are a nation of sailors, easy going ppl with lots of joy in their lifes, songs, drinking , women in each port. I do not know about you but I always saw the way of a sailor or a pirate as a freedom focused life.

Saying that OO and Luan have much in common is like saying that "Call of Cuthulu" and "The Old Man and the See" books are from the same shelf.

Yes, they have some synergies but what of it? They do not fit together, period. FfH lacks a neurtal towards good religion of the sees for them. For now the best fit for Lanun would be Agnostic [FfH lacks a neutral toward good agnostic civ] Giving any argument based on game mechanics is just silly.

 

[dan14444]

There is absolutely no reason to have "basic care", not "fend for themseves" on higher difficulties (deity) - health issues are absolutely irrelevant because of unrest. Would be reasonable to give +to unrest, not to unhealthness.

Also, "publc baths" as bordelles should be implemented not after sanitation but after different tech (currency?). Or they should be baths indeed .