FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback

[GeeJo]

Well, using fend for themselves will get you "You treat your people poorly" diplomatic modifiers - a plus if surrounded by evil civs, but your good neighbors may not appreciate it so much.

 

[onedreamer]

There is absolutely no reason to have "basic care", not "fend for themseves" on higher difficulties (deity) - health issues are absolutely irrelevant because of unrest. Would be reasonable to give +to unrest, not to unhealthness.

On higher levels health decreases as much as happyness.

 

[Go Boks]

There is only one neutral religion. This has been posted by Kael.

Umm, no. There are three neutral religions. This has been posted by Kael. RoK and OO convert evil and good to neutral, respectively, but they are still neutral (just not as neutral as FoL).

That does not mean they are the same. They like both water and are meant for water domination but they do it for 2 completely different reasons! [and in two different ways too] OO are flavoured on the Cuthulu stories, on mindless obedience and insanity. Luan are a nation of sailors, easy going ppl with lots of joy in their lifes, songs, drinking , women in each port. I do not know about you but I always saw the way of a sailor or a pirate as a freedom focused life.

Saying that OO and Luan have much in common is like saying that "Call of Cuthulu" and "The Old Man and the See" books are from the same shelf.

Yes, they have some synergies but what of it? They do not fit together, period. FfH lacks a neurtal towards good religion of the sees for them. For now the best fit for Lanun would be Agnostic [FfH lacks a neutral toward good agnostic civ] Giving any argument based on game mechanics is just silly.

Excuse me, but do you know what a pirate is? They are immoral cutt-throats and murderers. How is that neutral-good? At best, you could call them neutral-evil, just like OO. I think you have been watching far too many Disney movies to think that pirates are "easy going ppl with lots of joy in their lifes, songs, drinking , women in each port".

Second of all, sailors aren't about freedom. The life of a sailor is very regimented and about complete obedience to their superior. Mutiny is a very serious thing aboard a ship, and leadership will not tolerate the slightest hint of it.

I would agree with you that piracy is about freedom, but not the life of a sailor. I would also agree with you that there is some incosistency there between the freedom of pirates and the big-brother-esque enslavement of OO. However, I don't think it is too hard to imagine the OO as a cancer of sorts for any civ, and the Lanun not caring enough to fight it.

The same applies to the Balseraph link. The Balseraphs are gypsies with an insane leader. Insanity and mindless obedience do not mix either.

 

[Lord Buck]

Actually, many pirates went on to be knighted by kings and queens as many "heros" went on to be "pirates."

Assuming "heros" are good, one could make the arugument that pirates could be good too. I guess it depends on who they are "pirating." eh?

 

[Sureshot]

"Hanna is everything he isn't. She is the storm personified, tempermental and powerful. She has had entire cities razed for a percieved insult and rules not by charm, but by fear."

first line of hannahs pedia entry:
"Dreamers, worthless vagrants whose only use was receiving the visions of the Overlords, ..."

ya, hannah is a nice freedom loving girl, definately neutral good. people just need to read whats available, then valis and others wouldn't have to explain to everyone how good a leader hannah is, and how neutral religion OO has no synergies with the neutral sea people, and how there are no connections between the two.

 

[Go Boks]

Actually, many pirates went on to be knighted by kings and queens as many "heros" went on to be "pirates."

Assuming "heros" are good one could make the arugument that pirates could be good too. I guess it depends on who they are "pirating." eh?

You are confusing pirates with privateers.

Also, your assumption is not a good one, nor is your logic.

"Hanna is everything he isn't. She is the storm personified, tempermental and powerful. She has had entire cities razed for a percieved insult and rules not by charm, but by fear."

first line of hannahs pedia entry:
"Dreamers, worthless vagrants whose only use was receiving the visions of the Overlords, ..."

ya, hannah is a nice freedom loving girl, definately neutral good. people just need to read whats available, then valis and others wouldn't have to explain to everyone how good a leader hannah is, and how neutral religion OO has no synergies with the neutral sea people, and how there are no connections between the two.

 

[Lord Buck]

In the real world there are few differences between a privateers and pirates besides perspective and consequence. Of which have no relavence to this thread.

Before you get all consider this, perhaps Lunan, a Civ nation, should be considered Privateers and not Pirates? I mean, if you want to split hairs, they are in "war time" and they have their own flag.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I think you have been watching far too many Disney movies

The same applys to you too Pirates were all about money AND freedom. Those who you have in mind were brutalised by the military commanders with came from noblety and saw the crew as slaves [not the OO slaves, just peasants born to be obedient] There were only few of such cases in the history but they made a good story for a film so they were made famous. The majority of 'pirates' were so called Kapers [Privaters] and that had nothing to do with FfH pirates here, at least not with your vision. This is fantasy that we are talking about. FANTASY! Disley films are the right place to look for fantasy. Now, we have reality for simulation and that tells us that pirates, corsairs, privaters, whatewer-you-call-them are NOT

They are immoral cutt-throats and murderers.

, at least not more than a normal soldier under a kings flag. OR, we have the fantasy way represented in disney and other adventure books. Here OO do not fit the picture at all also.

"Hanna is everything he isn't. She is the storm personified, tempermental and powerful. She has had entire cities razed for a percieved insult and rules not by charm, but by fear."

Freedom is only an illusion with is very well represented by this sentence. It can be applied to the strictness of a ships crew drill or to philosophical abbreviation's of a ruler moods and choices. Were are talking here about the whole picture of a nation in a perspective of a fantasy world. OO has its strict lore: Madness coming from the depths of an ocean, an ocean dark and twisted that no one can grasp it and stay sane. But you have to remember that a religion in civ, and FfH especially, is a posteriori to the nation. The nation can go mad whatever they are. I.E. the Khazad can found the OO and follow their mad voices, why not? We as humans will use our imagination and think of a reasoning that could lead to it. It will be con intuitive but possible and what is civ as not a giant/small simulator of a reality? If it is not hard capped then it is possible.

Now, I have to agree that Hanah is the OO type after reading the flav txt in the pedia. I always look at Luan from the Falamar perspective. He is more of a see type man, having a woman on board was/is/will be considered as a bad luck charm to me and it is just not right to see him as 'made' for OO. The story behind Hanah is...hmmm, interesting but it does not fit to the civ fluf of a see driven ppl. It can be one of the scenarios behind a game but it aint appealing to me nad it is not a must scenario in the first place.

valis [...] have to explain to everyone [...] neutral religion OO has no synergies with the neutral sea people, and how there are no connections between the two.

I wont dignify this sentence with a response other than that: learn how to read whole posts.


Mods: can you move this part of the thread to the Lanun thread cause it has nothing to do with a balance discussion and I really do not like to offtop being an admin and a moderator of several forums my self.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Meh, balance is balance. And while we're on the topic of Falamar and Hannah being so different, I should remind you that Falamar has no religion preference, it's just Hannah that likes the OO. My primary complaint is that she doesn't like it enough, that she should bee-line for it like the elves and Leaves or dwarves and Runes. I think the sea tech paths get neglected by the AI (probably because of the rather high cost of lighthouses), and this also bleeds over to making the OO less of an influence.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It can be one of the scenarios behind a game but it aint appealing to me

I wonder if that is the crux of the disagreement? Anyway, Pirates were so varied in both history and literature that they could fit most any theme. The Lanun, moreso than most other civs, have quite different leaders. This makes sense given their theme and history. A sea people, one spread around with cities on many different islands/continents, will have divergent cultures grow up. Throw in an Age of Ice which makes sea travel next to impossible and strands Lanun communities far from each other, and you could have one Civ with an overarching theme of water with many differnt takes on it. Making reconciling different factions a chore for any leader, though only RP-wise, behind the scenes. Hannah, for one, was born into and grew to power within the context of one faction of the Lanun that was dominated by the OO. This is canon, though in game she is certainly free to change this. Falamir's personality seems less predisposed to the OO, though it fits him as well as any.

The tie to balance is that OO should arrive at about the same time as Runes, (Leaves is irrelevant for alignment balance, really) which is rushed by one civ, and one or two more are inclined towards it, afaik, like Chand explained well. Lanun, or at least Hannah, would be good candidates for this role, Balseraphs as well. (Personally I think Keelyn fits AV as well as OO). IMO, each religion should have 2 different civs with leaders that rush it, so that if by chance khazad, for instance, isn't in the game runes will still have a chance of showing up at a decent time.

OT, I really like Hannah's story. The "poor little girl becoming fierce warrior" theme I inadvertently emmulated a few times over.

 

[Go Boks]

In the real world there are few differences between a privateers and pirates besides perspective and consequence. Of which have no relavence to this thread.

Yeah, very few differences. I mean, a privateer has better ship, cannon and crew, a safe haven to retreat to, support from a nation and its navy and a heroes welcome awaiting him at home, as opposed to a gallows. Very, very few differences.

I wont dignify this sentence with a response other than that: learn how to read whole posts.

You do realise you just dignified that sentence with a response, right? As for the rest of your post, I don't even know where to start, so you've got me there.

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

How about we set Perpentach to rush for the OO as soon as he gets Festivals; which is what he rushes right now.
And we set Hannah to rush OO after she gets sailing; which is what she rushes currently.
So Keelyn and Falamar would stay with their current rushes.

Since these would be a secondery tech objective the OO would still be founded a little bit later than the others, but it has the possibility to be rushed by multiple civs, and since they would both get the religion now that everyone gets the free disciple, the OO could start out in multiple places and have a better chance of spreading at that point.

 

[Sureshot]

OO already has the worst spread rate of all the religions, making it come later just makes it that much more ineffective and less impacting.

In all the games i've played OO has been an obscure 1 or 2 civ religion, sometimes not even being adopted by its founder.

It is in Hannahs benefit to get it as early as possible, since mysticism is useful earlier on, and the culture benefits and stronger units are likely needed before sailing. Rushing OO, then, Sailing seems wisest for her.

Perpentach rushing festivals seems somewhat intelligent, but its somewhat wasteful without Hunting (Acrobats require both a Carnival and Hunting tech, unfortunately) for the military boost, and Animal Husbandry or Mind Stapling/Poisons techs (in order to capture Animals or Slaves, respectively) to really make use of the Carnival. So, it seems like itd be better for him to either rush OO right off, or to grab Festivals, Hunting, and Animal Husbandry first, which is quite a delay.

 

[Saien]

Meh, balance is balance. And while we're on the topic of Falamar and Hannah being so different, I should remind you that Falamar has no religion preference, it's just Hannah that likes the OO.

That's because Lanun doesn't have any religious hard coding rush at all, as it should be, and Hannah just has a personality that goes that direction.

Adding a questionable logic hardcoded rush is a horrible idea.

 

[Go Boks]

In all the games i've played OO has been an obscure 1 or 2 civ religion, sometimes not even being adopted by its founder.

In my last game, which was heavily, heavily evil alignment, OO and FoL were the dominant religions. Flauros founded FoL and spread it to his half of the world. Perpentach did the same with OO. I was stuck in the middle with RoK. Flauros eventually got AV as well and summoned Hyborem, which backfired because Hyborem got bored and attacked him (although he wasn't powerful enough to do much damage, and, with all the evil civs, I eventually took him out for Flauros just to get the AC to drop).

However, this was a 4 evil civ game. I was Khazad, the Elohim were taken out early by Flauros and the Bannor converted to OO. I eventually paid Sabathiel to convert to RoK in order to have one ally, and summoned Basium purely to have another (who eventually founded the Order).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In most of my recent games, Keelyn founded OO and quickly convinced the Clan and the Elohim to convert. This always allowed me to later convince Ethne to turn to the dark side. She still seems to hate Infernal, even though she is usually my first convert to AV.

 

[Bad Player]

Flavour-wise, why does the Mithril Golem (M.G.) require AC of 70 to be built? I can understand Meshabber of Dis requiring AC of 70 of course but not the M.G.

I think it would be better to have a high tech requirement for the M.G. (which it has) but no AC requirement (which IMO should be changed) whereas Meshabbur has a high AC requirement but a low tech requirement (only AV religion tech).

 

[kevjm]

I think the earth elemental is slightly underpowered compared to other level 2 summons- if it got a combat or movement bonus on hills I think it would bring it in line with these (all other summons at this level seem to have some feature beyond 4 strength that I've seen thus far).

p.s. I couldn't find the suggestions thread so I just posted it hear under the guise of balance

 

[Go Boks]

The AC requirement is because he is a very powerful unit that will wreak havoc and destruction. That goes along with the theme of impending doom that a high AC gives.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was thinking that it would take the catastrophic events of a high AC to convince Kilmorph to enchant the thing.