FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback

[felwar]

If someone is going to bring up Cthulu references in relation to the OO, then you need look no further than the names of the Lanun cities for a good reason why they should found it.

But regardless of flavor, this is about balance, and OO needs to come out sooner. In an 18 civ game I'm playing there are only 3 evil civs left, and one of those is auric ulvin. The other two are doing poorly, and it looks like the ashen veil may just never even be founded since, as I understand it, only an evil civ will found the religion.

That's a pretty large chunk of the "fire" game to either be missing or extremely limited in scope.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I still think Hannah should rush for it (or try to found it whether she already a a religion or not), while Falamar should have no preference.

 

[Sureshot]

in vanilla Civ Forts come with Mathematics, like in FFH, but Mathematics comes before (in fact its required for) Construction in vanilla Civ.

prolly a good idea to attach Forts to Construction instead of Mathematics, also atleast doubling its effectiveness to 50% or higher would be nice.

 

[Blakmane]

ok finished my game as clan of embers (world successfully destroyed). Here's the balance feedback.

Firstly and most importantly: getting 100 on the armageddon counter doesn't seem to have any particular benefit to evil races. seeming that hitting 100 devestates ALL races, what's the point? As the dominant player in the game, having killed off all opponent's heroes, the 100 event would do nothing but hurt me. In the end the infernals triggered the event, but I found it much more lucrative just to sit the counter on about 97.

I think the 100 counter event should ONLY effect good/neutral races. That way it actually gives the evil races a game-winning advantage, rather than just knocking everyone back to square one. I don't think this would be unbalancing, considering a) how difficult it is to get the counter that high and b) it is supposed to be a game winning event for evil.

Other than that:

The whole barbs declaring war on you if you get too far ahead in points is lame. really lame. Apart from being really annoying, the mechanic is also broken. Just get a friend, pump his score and then kill everyone else. In the game I just played, I had to constantly rush units and gift them to the calabim in order to remain at peace with the barbs (prince difficulty) and even then I only just managed to win in time, seeming that all four horsemen AND the avatar of wrath spawned within a tile of each other right next to them. As I said, lame mechanic, dispose please. The -10% research is already a horrible enough disadvantage for the barbs trait.

and finally

There's not enough of a 'great alliance' feel atm. As clan of embers, I managed to trash all the other 7 good/neutral races, and was about +30 with hyborem and alexis. However, once the counter had hit 100 and all the good races were gone, the game just kind of stalemated. Neither hyborem nor alexis would agree to a permanent alliance (despite me singlehandedly keeping both of their civs alive) and I had to just twiddle my thumbs until I won a religious victory by inquisitioning the OO out of calabim cities (they were veil but had converted from OO originally). Boring.

Maybe make it so that, once all good/neutral races have been destroyed, and the counter has reached high 90's/100's (or visa versa for good races maybe), there is some kind of easy to complete ritual or event that auto-allies all races of the same religion, thus completing the game without having to turn on your friends/win by tower of mastery/religious victory? Otherwise, maybe have civs of the same alignment/religion way more likely to enter a permanent alliance- remove the defensive pact or shared war for 100+ turns or whatever it is restriction.

 

[Ankhman]

In my present game which is nearing completion I have found that all civilizations regardless of whether they are good, neutral or evil do not like me destroying the world. I expected that the good civilizatiions would not like it (I have a -19 "You are destroying the world" with Sabathiel) but I have a -17 towards Sheelba for the same thing! I also have a -12 with Sheelba for going to war against her. This doesn't seem right; I would have thought that evil civ's would like the idea that the world is being destroyed.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Sheaim, flavorwise, should love you for it. So should Hyborem. The others should be relatively indifferent.

 

[Saien]

Anybody not AV is going to be hurt by it, even if evil. So they should be unhappy.

 

[Go Boks]

The Sheaim, flavorwise, should love you for it. So should Hyborem. The others should be relatively indifferent.

I wouldn't use the word "indifferent"...

AV civs and the Sheaim/Infernal should like you for it (in ascending order), but everyone else should be pretty ticked off. Just because someone is evil, doesn't mean they will be happy the world is ending.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Not sure if this is balance or just cosmetics - but I find it really strange that Os-Gabella dislikes the big red guy for beeing just a man - he is a demon after all I just used her to summon Hyborem and now have negativ diplomacy towards her? Seems not really good from a flavourwise standpoint.

 

[Go Boks]

On the Mobility promotion move, maybe keep Mobility I in Exploration and have Mobility II require Horseback Riding? That may make Horseback Riding still fairly ignored, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. My concern is that Exploration now isn't as attractive as it should be. I know roads are critical, but I usually don't build any workers for quite a while (especially as I need to research a host of techs to use them), so I am now delaying researching Exploration as well.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Maybe she shouldn't have extra hatred for the leaders who are actually angels or "minor gods" (Sabathiel, Basium, Cassiel, and Hyborem).

 

[Miloe]

In my present game which is nearing completion I have found that all civilizations regardless of whether they are good, neutral or evil do not like me destroying the world. I expected that the good civilizatiions would not like it (I have a -19 "You are destroying the world" with Sabathiel) but I have a -17 towards Sheelba for the same thing! I also have a -12 with Sheelba for going to war against her. This doesn't seem right; I would have thought that evil civ's would like the idea that the world is being destroyed.

im fairly sure that only the leaders with Ashen Veil state religion likes the idea of world being destroyed. in my last game Lanun was the only state with AV and they had +3 You are destroying the world and all the rest had minus points because of that.

 

[eerr]

or perhaps- hunters get a maulus vs units with a higher combat promotion?
so that hunter spam becomes less useful, but with training/civics aren't totally useless

:green promotion :unit has -30% vs more experianced units
(combat or level, whichever is easier)

:wild promotion :unit has +10% combat, and -30% in cities
or +15% combat, :15% in cities, and cannot fortify in cities

----

also, if water walking is going to remain two seperate promotions, the divine/arcane version should give double movement in ocean.

 

[Xanikk999]

ok finished my game as clan of embers (world successfully destroyed). Here's the balance feedback.

Firstly and most importantly: getting 100 on the armageddon counter doesn't seem to have any particular benefit to evil races. seeming that hitting 100 devestates ALL races, what's the point? As the dominant player in the game, having killed off all opponent's heroes, the 100 event would do nothing but hurt me. In the end the infernals triggered the event, but I found it much more lucrative just to sit the counter on about 97.

I think the 100 counter event should ONLY effect good/neutral races. That way it actually gives the evil races a game-winning advantage, rather than just knocking everyone back to square one. I don't think this would be unbalancing, considering a) how difficult it is to get the counter that high and b) it is supposed to be a game winning event for evil.

Other than that:

The whole barbs declaring war on you if you get too far ahead in points is lame. really lame. Apart from being really annoying, the mechanic is also broken. Just get a friend, pump his score and then kill everyone else. In the game I just played, I had to constantly rush units and gift them to the calabim in order to remain at peace with the barbs (prince difficulty) and even then I only just managed to win in time, seeming that all four horsemen AND the avatar of wrath spawned within a tile of each other right next to them. As I said, lame mechanic, dispose please. The -10% research is already a horrible enough disadvantage for the barbs trait.

and finally

There's not enough of a 'great alliance' feel atm. As clan of embers, I managed to trash all the other 7 good/neutral races, and was about +30 with hyborem and alexis. However, once the counter had hit 100 and all the good races were gone, the game just kind of stalemated. Neither hyborem nor alexis would agree to a permanent alliance (despite me singlehandedly keeping both of their civs alive) and I had to just twiddle my thumbs until I won a religious victory by inquisitioning the OO out of calabim cities (they were veil but had converted from OO originally). Boring.

Maybe make it so that, once all good/neutral races have been destroyed, and the counter has reached high 90's/100's (or visa versa for good races maybe), there is some kind of easy to complete ritual or event that auto-allies all races of the same religion, thus completing the game without having to turn on your friends/win by tower of mastery/religious victory? Otherwise, maybe have civs of the same alignment/religion way more likely to enter a permanent alliance- remove the defensive pact or shared war for 100+ turns or whatever it is restriction.

I agree with all your points, and i hope kael posts in this thread.

I dont like raising the armeggedon counter because it hurts you even if your an evil civ or even if your the sheaim!

And i dont like the barb trait if the barbs declare war on you eventually anyway. I agree!

 

[Miloe]

yup, theres no point having ashen veil as state religion if you get -6 relations to everyone because "you are destroying the world" aka some raider AI likes to raze cities you havent even seen before

 

[vorshlumpf]

Finally finished my first Fire game (curse my infatuation with Marathon games!!!). I must say that I am continually amazed by this mod, and how I'll see so many 'new' things each time I play.

Anyway, I've got a few possible suggestions for the game.

- Niilo

1. Is there a chance to make higher XP units more resistant to world-effecting events, such as Apocalypse and the Avatar of Wrath 'summons'? It can be quite disheartening to have a long-time, favourite unit just disappear like that. Actually, it all-but-killed my interest the game for me (I had lost over 400 XP worth from three units alone).
2. It seems naval units are unaffected to the Avatar of Wrath 'summons'. I don't know if this is intentional but it doesn't seem right.
3. Missile units seem to be significantly weaker now with metal promotions. Even their enchantment buff, a level II spell, is ultimately weaker than the melee buff (see next point). Can they not use metal armour, or metal arrow-heads?
4. Enchantment Level I gives +20% to melee units, Level II gives +1 Fire damage to missile units. For any unit above 4 STR this makes the Level II spell equal to or weaker than the Level I spell. It doesn't seem right that the Level I spell gets increasingly better than the Level II spell as the game progresses.
5. The passing on of disease seems ... off. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a chance to pass it on to fellow units when ending the turn on the same space? I suppose this could be abused with Open Borders agreements... Plague should also be more self-spreading.
6. You should be able to build something over top of a dwarven mine. One reason is to help the AI - I've seen dwarves mine a hill that has sheep, and never be able to use those sheep because of it. Allowing someone to build over dwarven mines wouldn't violate the anti-pillaging mechanic; you can only build improvements when you control the land yourself.
7. Forest fires seem to last too long. In fact, I've seen fires last long enough for neighbouring burnt forest to bloom into new forest and immediately catch fire again. This is too much.
8. Forest fires should damage and/or force non-resistant units out of the space it appears on.
9. I don't understand why fireballs and meteors cause forest fires from their travel. These things go over mountains! Why can't they go over trees? I'd suggest that only their detonation (from an attack) have the possibility to cause forest fires. This would also save the AI from torching all its forests from its use of fireballs/meteors as short-range scouting units.
10. Unique units are so important that their birth is announced, why not their death as well. It would be great to see even the line from the combat log (e.g., "Beeri's Dwarven Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Acheron the Red Dragon!"
11. Barbarians won't travel through the borders of friendly civs (with the Bar trait). This has bothered me each time I've played the Clan, and much more so this last game (all demon heros appeared in a section of land completely isolated by my borders - making their influence on the game close to nothing)
12. Is there any plan to change water for hell terrain? I noticed that hell terrain can spread over water, so even if there was just a visual change at least you'd know it was happening. Perhaps something like the look of water right after a Tsunami has removed some land:
    
    Spoiler :

    
13. Speaking of Tsunami: since when do giant waves change the land so drastically? Sinking of mountains? Yikes! I suggest changing the mechanic to simply cleansing the land of improvements and severely damaging units/cities (just use the nuclear bombing mechanic from Vanilla - I think 50% of buildings are gone, and same with units. That would be more in line with what tsunamis really are.
14. HN units use roads in foreign territory just like a Shadow does. However, considering HN units are visible and are generally bad news, I don't see why they should get the extra movement.
15. Likewise, HN units heal in foreign lands as if the lands were neutral and not enemy.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Enchantment Level I gives +20% to melee units, Level II gives +1 Fire damage to missile units. For any unit above 4 STR this makes the Level II spell equal to or weaker than the Level I spell. It doesn't seem right that the Level I spell gets increasingly better than the Level II spell as the game progresses.

Don't forget that the +1 gets better as promotions are added; anyway, it has to be added as strength (not a +%)in order to be of a damage type.

I don't understand why fireballs and meteors cause forest fires from their travel. These things go over mountains! Why can't they go over trees? I'd suggest that only their detonation (from an attack) have the possibility to cause forest fires.

Wel, that's the way I thought it was going to be implemented; if you've seen otherwise, maybe it's a bug. (Or maybe a shortcut, idk.)

Gold star for formatting, by the way.

 

[vorshlumpf]

Don't forget that the +1 gets better as promotions are added; anyway, it has to be added as strength (not a +%)in order to be of a damage type.

Ah, yes, thanks for pointing out my oversight. Without doing much number crunching, I guess that makes the two spells about even for power.

Wel, that's the way I thought it was going to be implemented; if you've seen otherwise, maybe it's a bug. (Or maybe a shortcut, idk.)

I used my archmage to clear out jungles merely by running a few meteors through them.

Gold star for formatting, by the way.

Yay, my first gold star!

- Niilo

 

[Go Boks]

I used my archmage to clear out jungles merely by running a few meteors through them.

God dammit, why does this not work for me. I have a continent of jungle to clear and I have thrown many, many fireballs through it. Hell, I've killed units in it and still no fires. Do forest fires require a certain AC (if they do, that makes no sense to me)?

 

[katika]

Any unit with a certain amount of fire strength has a chance to cause fires in forests/jungles it walks through. Fireballs do not have high enough strength to do so, but they can cause fires when they explode. Meteors can cause fires just by movement.