FfH2 0.21 Balance Feedback

It isn't a benefit unless hell would be spreading in your territory (almost) as much anyway. If your territory is all hell then the choice is a no brainer, but is switching would turn your land to hell while not switching would protect it then it is not a good decision.
 
Maybe instead of good and neutral lands not getting hell terrain at all until a certain AC count, it would be better if hell spread there at a much reduced rate. The rate would then return to normal as the AC approached 100. For instance:

Code:
Hell Spread Penalty @ AC Count...
                 0     25     50     75     100
Unowned Land     0%     0%     0%     0%     0%
Evil Land      (25%)  (25%)  (25%)  (25%)  (25%)
Neutral Land    50%    38%    25%    13%     0%
Good Land      100%    75%    50%    25%     0%

In my example above, unowned land would have no effect on Hell terrain spread. Evil land would accelerate hell terrain spread in all scenarios. Neutral and good land would hinder hell terrain spread, lessening as the AC rose. Obviously, the values themselves need to be tweaked, these are just an example.
 
It isn't a benefit unless hell would be spreading in your territory (almost) as much anyway. If your territory is all hell then the choice is a no brainer, but is switching would turn your land to hell while not switching would protect it then it is not a good decision.
Well, hell isn't the end of the world, pardon the irony. I think despite the encroachment of hell, AV civs would still be competitive with other religions.
But if you disagree, how much of a boost does the AV need to be an equal choice to FoL, RoK, OO, or the Order?
 
kraken get hidden nationality... as a str 13 unit that gets empower- that means they can attack cities and win...
 
kraken get hidden nationality... as a str 13 unit that gets empower- that means they can attack cities and win...

Kraken should only be allowed to attack ships (including at harbor) and water walking units (only at sea) IMHO.
 
The problem with Hell and AV is that Hell comes with the second tech, Sacrifice the Weak comes with the first. Thus you found AV and adopt Sacrifice the Weak, never summon Hyborem, never bring about Hell, and you have effectively double the food. The AV specific tech has no incentive right now other than role play or to play as Hyborem, IMO. But you get all of the other benefits.

A simple solution would be to push back Sacrifice the Weak to the second tech so that you can't get the extra food without risking losing lots of health to Hell. You could also have Hell spread from the AV Holy City at a certain AC (regardless of tech).
 
Why do Krakens get the promotions for land units, including city attack and anti-racial ones?

they don't- but are hn units can attack cities, including waterborn ones
the kraken is the only one it might be a real problem for though
as a summon- you can keep attacking at anything short of odds below 1%
 
I know I have upgraded them to have land unit promotions. They don't start with these promotions, but they can get them. I believe this may be because they are classified as beast units.
 
Maybe Kael and the team can find some time to address some of the most glaring HN issues prior to Shadow?
 
I was just wondering if it would be good have seafaring as an alternativ way to discover trade. It would make sense flavourwise. The path would be a bit more expensive than the horseback riding one, the later techs in the branch should just require horseback riding again (so that you for instance can't get stirrups without it.)

I'm just proposing this because you always need trade but on some maps going for horseback riding is quite useless :)
 
A few things you didnt mention. Ashen Veil players have access to the Sacrifice the Weak civic. This halves their food needs and allows them to survive on hell terrain much better than anyone else.

The AC is not "evil", think of it as physical manifestation of war. In general the AC going up is intended to be a bad thing for everyone. But there are some advantages of it. It allows the creation of some units that can't be made without it. It strengthens units with the Stigmata promotion. It increases the amount of creatures that will come through planar gates and the chance they will (the Sheaim are the best served by a high armageddon count). Spreading hell to non-AV lands is advantageous to AV players since other players cant use sacrifice the weak. It also gives access to Sheut Stones which strengthen your creatures.

There was never a time when hell spread to good lands

As a lot of other people have already said, yes sacrifice the weak civic is powerful, and makes hell not quite as bad for evil races. However, this is completely irrelevant because:

1. Sacrifice the weak is better again without hell. I don't think the solution is just to move it back to infernal pact, because that just encourages people to summon hyborem and then quickly kill him to stop hell spread. Perhaps it would make more sense if it had some kind of synergy with hell instead.

2. Other religious civics cope just as well with hell. Especially the Leaves one (mass health anyone? has the same effect as doubling food in a hell scenario, plus it has +++ happiness).

3. It is totally irrelevant that hell hurts AV races a bit less, because it doesn't hurt good races at all. Neutral races also get less of an effect, because hell will only spread in their lands at a high AC. Plus they can just sanctify it.


There are a few advantages to hell, as you said, but they are far outweighed by the costs. That game I played, I was almost overwhelmed by the grigori, because I a) didn't get any sheut (and AIs hate trading) b) there was burning sands over the top of my iron and c) all my cities were losing population due to the sudden lack of improvements/resources. The game would've been much easier if I had just never summoned hyborem at all.


About the AC:

I thought 'fire' was essentially about the battle between good and evil. 'save the world, or destroy it'. All the ways to raze the AC are evil, and all the ways to lower it are good. Surely then, having a high AC would be a good thing for evil races, and a bad thing for good races? It makes no sense to me balance wise that AV races should be suffering as badly as good races when they do something, flavour-wise, they should be doing (raising the counter). In difficult games people will always play to maximise their chance of victory- they don't have time to play around with flavour aspects that don't give them an advantage. Stigmata and Beasts of Agares aren't enough. Stigmata isn't really that useful when my rosier has just been killed by the 100 AC event anyway, and the Order has suitably powerful counter-units that don't have any AC requirement at all (which totally rape beasts of agares due to their anti-demon promotions).

What i'm trying to get at is, there isn't really any huge incentive to raise the AC if you are an Ashen Veil player. Sure you can and it doesn't do you too much harm compared to others, but at the same time it is often advantageous to keep it low, especially if you are winning. This seems totally counter-intuitive to me.

There are a million ways of making the AC just that little bit more interesting and involved in the game strategy. Increasing the strength of the AV a little, but tying them much more heavily to the AC counter perhaps. Maybe make the power of all AV disciple spells linked to the AC, or their civic get better as the AC increases/hell spreads. There's also all the things I suggested in the first thread. None of these need to be imbalancing, it's just a matter of keeping the AC involved and working like it should be.

Oh and sorry for the long post again... my head kind of explodes with ideas and they have trouble getting out on to the page :P
 
2. It is totally irrelevant that hell hurts AV races a bit less, because it doesn't hurt good races at all. Neutral races also get less of an effect, because hell will only spread in their lands at a high AC.
I think you have a good point here. Being good should offer some protection against hell, though, and in a non-micromanagement way. Maybe a (repeatable) ritual that pushes hell from your lands to the edge of your borders, rather than just keeping it out.
There should be a way to keep improvements through the burning sands; maybe a unique mine/quarry improvement at some point in the tech tree that is immune to destruction by flames.

Maybe make the power of all AV disciple spells linked to the AC
Could the AC be connected to resistance for spells? Make it so AV and most arcane spells are harder to resist at high Arm Levels. Maybe positive spells like bless and heal will have a chance of failure at higher levels. [I know AI doesn't use spells too well atm but] this would probably go a long way towards making a high AC penalize goodies.

Also if we could give decimals to commerce values like in warlords, AV temples could give, say, 1.2 beakers rather than 1.

Thematically, the way I'd like to see the AV religion shape up is in a sell your soul kind of way--you take some penalties for having hell in your lands, but the power you get to crush your foes makes up for it. 'Course it still has to be balanced and all...
 
Hum... how about the AV get a unique worker unit that has resistance to fire? Also, make it so that improvement building in Hell takes a lot longer for workers aside from the AV unique ones. Seems like it might be a nice way to make Hell more deadly along with giving incentive to neutral Civs that are besieged by Hell to convert.
 
Of course if you're iron resource is warped, that's not so much fun - but just consider that AV is more about priests and summoning, not especially the melee way. What if there was a new resource only available in hell, something like "warp stone" (idea from a civ2-mod) which can be used to build demons [even if you are neutral or not an AV player]? this would make hell terrain more interesting. And remember Oblivion (the game) - even in hell there were plant's.

Of course the Armagedon Clock 40 (destroys all farms etc.) is surely a big disadvantage to every player even the evil one. In my acutal game, everyone is good - but even without razing cities the AC is steadily rising to 40... But as far as I know this is intended, isn't it? it's DARK fantasy and the armageddon clock show's this with harsh destruction. you have to cope with losing all your farms and resources and the trade of this resouces with your neighbours - war's will arose because of it - and I'm nearly sure that is intended. Even if everyone is good - or bad.. Also it opens new strategies: if you are are playing the orcish tribe (has to raze all cities) you know, that IF you will be successful, you will raise the armageddon clock. Is it then wise to build any farms? or is it wiser to build workshops to produce a big army fast? farming orcs are not so much the picture of a dark fantasy world anyway.

The question is: should evil civ's have a bonus from high AC and much hell terain - or not? At the moment they do not have much of a bonus. what's the reason behind this? Is this intended or is it a flaw?

I think the balance thing lies on another point already mentioned by some: evil civ's have more wars and longer war's and more war weariness because of it. this ruins the AI's economies. There are "reduce war weariness"-abilities on some palaces, maybe they should be increased?
 
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