FFH2 fluff questions...

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Some race settings of certain races are a bit confusing:

Is there a certain reason why Calabim don't start with death mana?! With their vampires it's pretty much 'THE' undead race.

According to the manual Luchuirp are supposed to be good dwarves. Why are they using bone golems? Wouldn't it be better to give the 'evil' golems to the Khazad dwarves, since they are at least neutral?

Further, shouldn't some religions be restricted to certain alignments? The favorite religions for Calabim seem to be order and empyrean. It's a bit odd if the best religions for a certain race are those of the opposite alignment.

Actually, what's the point of alignments if they don't serve any purpose and can be changed as easily as underwear? Wouldn't it be better to remove them entirely since the game mechanics doesn't seem to care about them?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Is there a certain reason why Calabim don't start with death mana?! With their vampires it's pretty much 'THE' undead race.

They aren't undead in FfH (they are "normal" humans who devour the souls of other people, making themselves immortal, check the civilopedia for more details), although they practice necromancy (their Vampire units can learn Death spells without the mana) - need to find a way for all these dead bodies of their victims to be useful...

According to the manual Luchuirp are supposed to be good dwarves. Why are they using bone golems?

"Good" in FfH can be quite morally ambiguous sometimes.

Wouldn't it be better to remove them entirely since the game mechanics doesn't seem to care about them?

Well, some units (Druids, Paladins, Eidolons) are restricted only to certain alignments, the leaders of different alignment have diplomacy modifiers to each other, Good guys are safe from the spread of Hell terrain, etc.

Further, shouldn't some religions be restricted to certain alignments? The favorite religions for Calabim seem to be order and empyrean. It's a bit odd if the best religions for a certain race are those of the opposite alignment.

The AI's flavour religion weights should be increased. I posted files which make the AI's religion choices more lorelike here, although corruptions/redemptions are still possible. As to restricting the players - the design principle behind that mod is that the player shouldn't be constrained by such things and should be able to choice stuff like AV Elohim if he wants to. I do think that some more gentle pushes to more roleplaying style would be nice.

 

[Corlis]

With respect to the Bone Golems, I'd argue that they're not undead at all, but simply made out of bones, the same way other golems are made out of mud, wood, and iron. The Luchuirp don't wrench some poor soul out of the afterlife into their old body, like traditional necromancy would, but they just imbue the bones with a new magical intelligence, so Bone Golems aren't any more evil than the other golems. In any case, they're made out of elephant bones rather than human ones.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Some race settings of certain races are a bit confusing:

Is there a certain reason why Calabim don't start with death mana?! With their vampires it's pretty much 'THE' undead race.

They aren't undead, they are very much alive. They embody the sphere of the base, carnal, fleshly desires, which the undead don't really possess. Vampires are living men and women who practice a dark ritual allowing them to draw power from the souls of those they murder, using this to grant them eternal youth and superhuman strength. This presumably deprives their victims not only of this life but also the next. Vampirism cannot be passed on unwillingly, and there are no innocent vampires.

Vampires are not killed by sunlight, but it feels very unpleasant to them and deprives them of their normal superhuman strength. This is a curse placed on them by Lugus, the god of the Sun, since Alexis's first victim was an acolyte of his. Most assume that this is meant as revenge and eternal torment, but I believe that it is really the power of Lugus empowering their own conscious to make them feel guilty for their crimes, or supplementing their conscious with another punishment if their conscious is totally dead. It is not in the nature of Lugus to punish except so as to point out sins so that the guilty will remember them and be drawn to make amends. I am of the opinion that the curse would vanish if a vampire gave up using the rituals, but perhaps not until they cease to reap the benefits from their previous murders. For older vampires that would probably involve starving themselves to death, but at least they would find forgiveness and a place in Lugus's heaven after that.

As Lone Wolf said, many of these living vampires are experts on necromancy, since they have no scruples about desecrating corpses, a lot of corpses to spare, and lives long enough to allow them to spend centuries masteing the dark arts.

According to the manual Luchuirp are supposed to be good dwarves. Why are they using bone golems? Wouldn't it be better to give the 'evil' golems to the Khazad dwarves, since they are at least neutral?

What is so evil about making golems out of ivory from long-dead mammoths? This isn't necromancy, and it doesn't even defile the corpse of any sentient being. (Although I suspect they would really like to make a Bone Golem from Dragon Bones if they could and Dragons in Erebus seem more intelligent that humans. They probably only use bones from an already dead dragon though, or hire some adventurers to kill and evil one. Of course, I'd be afraid that dragon bones are saturated in mana of the dragon's precept and maybe haunted by the dragon's spirit, so a Dragon-Bone-Golem might have a will of its own and would be hard for the dwarves to control.) As you'll see from the pedia, a Bone Golem can only be fashioned out of a single piece of bone, so the Luchuipr would only be able to create toy golems a few inches in height if they used human bones for this.

Further, shouldn't some religions be restricted to certain alignments? The favorite religions for Calabim seem to be order and empyrean. It's a bit odd if the best religions for a certain race are those of the opposite alignment.

The Order fits them fairly well thematically, but I do tend to think that the Calabim should be blocked from using the Empyrean. In my version, I increased pretty much all religious weightings, and gave all Calabim leaders but Decius (who of course should follow the Empyrean when he leads the Malakim) a -99 weighting towards the Empyrean (which means the AI will never use it, but a human still could). I also made "NONE" be the Calabim UU for all Empyrean UUs, and make Blinding Light deal holy damage to units with the Vampire promotion or give them the Withered (renamed Enervated, since I like the old Entropy III spell's name better) promotion (depending on which one of my versions I'm talking about).

Actually, what's the point of alignments if they don't serve any purpose and can be changed as easily as underwear? Wouldn't it be better to remove them entirely since the game mechanics doesn't seem to care about them?

Some game mechanics care about them. I'd prefer the system be expanded, using Broader Alignments and adding a lot of events that can change or have different options based on your alignment.

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

They aren't undead, they are very much alive. They embody the sphere of the base, carnal, fleshly desires, which the undead don't really possess. Vampires are living men and women who practice a dark ritual allowing them to draw power from the souls of those they murder, using this to grant them eternal youth and superhuman strength. This presumably deprives their victims not only of this life but also the next. Vampirism cannot be passed on unwillingly, and there are no innocent vampires.

I've no problem with vampires being alive, but in my opinion it's out of question that Calabim with their Vampires have the strongest tendency to use death mana from all FFH2 races. That doesn't mean they HAVE to use it. I could also play Sheaim in a style that would put even a (good) angel to shame. But they start with death mana. Why should they if even vampires don't. If the game supports a 'free' playing style, then why are Calabim the only race that can build vampires? There are quite a lot of other human races out there. In Dominions 3 for example, vampires are part of the blood magic path. Therefore all races that practice blood magic can build them, although some have easier access to them.

The Order fits them fairly well thematically, but I do tend to think that the Calabim should be blocked from using the Empyrean.

I'd agree if order would be some kind of neutral 'behaviour' like in D&D. In a D&D scenario lawfull evil would be an almost perfect description for vampires. However, in the FFH2 manual, order is clearly declared as a 'good' religion. It would fit better to a race like Mercurians who 'think' they are doing good although they almost turned evil (Fanatic Paladin style).

With respect to the Bone Golems, I'd argue that they're not undead at all, but simply made out of bones, the same way other golems are made out of mud, wood, and iron. The Luchuirp don't wrench some poor soul out of the afterlife into their old body, like traditional necromancy would, but they just imbue the bones with a new magical intelligence, so Bone Golems aren't any more evil than the other golems. In any case, they're made out of elephant bones rather than human ones.

In principle, it's possible that the angels look like demons and vice versa. But do you want the game to apply to fantasy genre standards or not?! Really, I don't want to see an army of pink bunny demons, although it's certainly possible and could be even quite effective (devil in sheep shape strategy).

What is so evil about making golems out of ivory from long-dead mammoths? This isn't necromancy, and it doesn't even defile the corpse of any sentient being.

What's evil about using an already dead body from a graveyard and make a 'flesh golem' out of it. The human/dwarve/elve/etc. was already dead and is just a combination of certain dead organic molecules? Some things are not done in societies with good moral standards, simply because they feel wrong. If a human dies in our modern society, we burry him in a ceremony although we could also throw him in a trashcan just like a rotten piece of pork.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

You simply fail at understanding the FfH world my friend and you fail epicly.

I've no problem with vampires being alive, but in my opinion it's out of question that Calabim with their Vampires have the strongest tendency to use death mana from all FFH2 races. That doesn't mean they HAVE to use it. I could also play Sheaim in a style that would put even a (good) angel to shame. But they start with death mana. Why should they if even vampires don't. If the game supports a 'free' playing style, then why are Calabim the only race that can build vampires? There are quite a lot of other human races out there. In Dominions 3 for example, vampires are part of the blood magic path. Therefore all races that practice blood magic can build them, although some have easier access to them.

This is becouse the queen of the Calibim Alexis invented the ritual that transforms you into a vampire. And only her people know the secret. It has nothing to do with blood, and everything with sucking peoples soles out and eating them.

I'd agree if order would be some kind of neutral 'behaviour' like in D&D. In a D&D scenario lawfull evil would be an almost perfect description for vampires. However, in the FFH2 manual, order is clearly declared as a 'good' religion. It would fit better to a race like Mercurians who 'think' they are doing good although they almost turned evil (Fanatic Paladin style).

In FfH there is no real good or evil. There are Angels and Demons.
If a nation is more likely to side with the first it is considered good, and if it is to side with the later it is considered evil.

So Order or Emperian Calibim would represent a vampire nation that is still opresing their people but fighting demons along the way.

In principle, it's possible that the angels look like demons and vice versa. But do you want the game to apply to fantasy genre standards or not?! Really, I don't want to see an army of pink bunny demons, although it's certainly possible and could be even quite effective (devil in sheep shape strategy).

That is the fun of a free form game. I have seen as many Elhonim conquests as I have Banor crusades. And quite a few times did I see AV banor defeat Basilium and than turn to order to kick the demons as well.

What's evil about using an already dead body from a graveyard and make a 'flesh golem' out of it. The human/dwarve/elve/etc. was already dead and is just a combination of certain dead organic molecules? Some things are not done in societies with good moral standards, simply because they feel wrong. If a human dies in our modern society, we burry him in a ceremony although we could also throw him in a trashcan just like a rotten piece of pork.

The diference betwen good and evil usage of corpses is defined by how you use them.
E.g. Are you using necromancy or enchantement.

In the first case you are inprisoning the sole of someones loved one into a new life within roting flesh or decaying bone.
In the second case you are puting his bones to use protecting his loved ones.

It has nothing to do with modern day morality realy. Our moral standards can simply not be applied to any of the factions in this game.

 

[Emptiness]

ArkhanTheBlack, it sounds like FfH would have been a much different mod if you'd developed it. If I'd made it, it would be different as well, from how it is now and from how you'd have done it. However, neither of us developed it.

The problems you have with the story behind the mod are beyond changing at this point. It is essentially in the finishing touches stage, and major story points are not going to be revised. Making Vampires available to anyone with access to Body Mana, for instance, would require a complete rebalance of the mod, as well as force the Calabim to be reworked to compensate them for the loss of their primary advantage. That could potentially have happened in the very early stages of mod development, but not in the final ones.

You could read more details about the lore of FfH in the lore thread, if you wanted to try to come to an understanding of why things are the way they are. Or, you could write a modmod that changes the details with which you don't agree. Beyond that, however, there's not much that can be done.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Kael originally stated that he did not want any civ to start with a mana type that gives a diplomatic penalty like Death and Entropy. (The Infernals are an exception since they don't start out in the game.)

The Sheaim really shouldn't start with Death mana, they were just given that because the mana sphere they embody (Dimensional) was removed from the game for lack of good (i.e., Kael-approved) ideas for level 2 and 3 spells. They are back to using Dimensional instead in my version, and in FF too I think.



The vampiric ritual is the closest guarded secret of Alexis and Flauros. They would not be happy with anyone sharing this secret with those not loyal to them, and would surely make an example of the traitors. I suspect that it is illegal to write the ritual down, or that it simply cannot be learned except by seeing it performed.

The teachings and runes Alexis used can probably still be found in the Bair of Lacuna, but only Os-Gabella can get there so only the Sheaim could get access to it that way. Even so, it wouldn't be exactly the same ritual (probably closer to the Consume Soul ritual that Eaters of Dreams use), and it probably wouldn't come with the curse from Lugus. Most civilizations would find the ritual abhorrent. Os-Gabella herself would not want other to use her children's ritual, as to lead to them entering the service of Aeron, a god who tried to rape her and force her to bear powerful, immortal children. I suspect she hates Aeron more than anyone, even Nemed, and that her children betraying her by essentially fulfilling Aeron's desire may be what finally drover her to seek to commit suicide.


I'm thinking that in my version I may increase the number of mana types that the palaces give and make more wonders grant mana, but also increase the mana prereqs for free promotions (for archmages at the very least). If so, I may add Death to the Calabim list then, but Mind would be higher up. (Note: I had to edit the SDK to allow more than 3 types of free resources from buildings, and didn't bother trying how to figure how how to make it grant an arbitrary number or a different number of resources per resources. My DLL currently allows 7 free resources per building. I was thinking I'd give each civ its patron mana type twice.)



Junil may be good, but in FfH lore The Order was corrupted by priests who ignored the will of their god and in fact hunted down all those who were still loyal to him or gifted in performing miracles. In one of Kael's tales, Valin Phanual was just about the only real follower of Junil who survived. I think this corrupted faith suits the Calabim well. (I think that the high priests may have actually been members of the Stewards of Inequity or the Council of Esus, but most of those following them still believed them to be good.) This fits the Calabim well I think. (Alexis is inclined towards the Ashen Veil, but Flauros doesn't care for demons. He is strongly inclined towards The Council of Esus (although the weightings haven't been updated since that was introduced so his favorite religion in the game is OO), but would certainly not mind cooperating with corrupt Order priests to protect his luxurious estates from demonic onslaught.



Bone Golems may look scary, but they are really no worse than Gargoyles, which the Luchuirp also use. I suspect these good dwarves want their troops to look scary so that innocent bystanders would be scared into runing away and not getting caught in the fight.

Did you miss the part about Bone Goems being make of the remains of Mammoths, not humans, elves, orks, or dwarves? There is nothing more evil about using them than about wearing a fur coat.

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

You simply fail at understanding the FfH world my friend and you fail epicly.

Yes, indeed! That's exactly why I posted my questions!

This is becouse the queen of the Calibim Alexis invented the ritual that transforms you into a vampire. And only her people know the secret. It has nothing to do with blood, and everything with sucking peoples soles out and eating them.

Ooookay, so the vampire mass murder skill to feed on the population of a city has nothing to do with blood? What do they eat? Hair? Finger nails? And the name 'bloodpet' for their warrior unit and 'River of Blood' for their world spell were also only chosen by accident and have nothing to do with the vampire blood-sucking cliche?!

In FfH there is no real good or evil. There are Angels and Demons.
If a nation is more likely to side with the first it is considered good, and if it is to side with the later it is considered evil.

The problem is that angels and demons are not just X and Y. There are certain moral standards associated with them. The manual clearly says that Mercurians are rebellious (aka fallen angels), therefore they don't represent the true angels which represent 'good' in a moral sense. I'm surprised that they even have alignment good.

It has nothing to do with modern day morality realy.

So FFH2 humans have nothing to do with our human species? They just walk on two legs and look like we do? Psychological, they are completely different?

Making Vampires available to anyone with access to Body Mana, for instance, would require a complete rebalance of the mod, as well as force the Calabim to be reworked to compensate them for the loss of their primary advantage. That could potentially have happened in the very early stages of mod development, but not in the final ones.

That wasn't my suggestion. I just wanted to make clear that if you restrict certain concepts/units/traits to a race, you have to accept the consequences. Which means they are more likely to use evil religions since they have a high tendency to build vampires, which are almost ultra evil in a moral sense in FFH2.

 

[Deon]

Arkhan has certain points. I personally don't understand why are they "bloodpets" and the "river of blood" name, shouldn't it be "river of souls" instead? Well, these really are "fluff" questions as you say.

However you have to do some allowances in the sake of gameplay.

You could restrict religions to alignments, but then there would be no way to change your alignment. Even in BA modmod it's not that simple with events. If there were different ways to change alignment then it would probably work, but not in the current state.

 

[Emptiness]

Making Vampires available to anyone with access to Body Mana, for instance, would require a complete rebalance of the mod, as well as force the Calabim to be reworked to compensate them for the loss of their primary advantage. That could potentially have happened in the very early stages of mod development, but not in the final ones.

That wasn't my suggestion. I just wanted to make clear that if you restrict certain concepts/units/traits to a race, you have to accept the consequences. Which means they are more likely to use evil religions since they have a high tendency to build vampires, which are almost ultra evil in a moral sense in FFH2.

Ah, I misunderstood then - because I mistakenly concluded that you advocated the availablility of Vampires to other civs when you said:

If the game supports a 'free' playing style, then why are Calabim the only race that can build vampires? There are quite a lot of other human races out there. In Dominions 3 for example, vampires are part of the blood magic path. Therefore all races that practice blood magic can build them, although some have easier access to them.

I guess maybe you were using that to support (in some way I don't understand) your argument that the Calabim should have access to Death Mana.

 

[WarKirby]

Vampires are not undead. And the justification for them having death mana at all is extremely loose, and doesn't really make a lot of sense. FF removed death spells from vampires, which I feel was a good idea.

If you want an undead race, try the Scions in FF, or the D'Tesh in FF+.

 

[klutzy]

i think he just wants to argue at this point. There is no clearer way to answer his questions than what has already been stated.

 

[Kael]

I dont understand why making golems out of bone would be considered evil. The elohim or the ljosalfar might consider them abominations, but the Luchuirp don't see anything wrong with it.

Some vampires do drink blood from time to time, it just isnt required. They extend their life by feeding on their opponents soul, its a magical act, not a digestive one. River of Blood and Bloodpets allude to this, the names aren't literal (sect of flies isnt actually an army of flies).

 

[Lone Wolf]

Emperian Calibim would represent a vampire nation that is still opresing their people but fighting demons along the way.

Empyrean Calabim doesn't make any sense lorewise, although Order can be justified. That's why I gave the Calabim -45 to Order and -90 to Empyrean in my modmod.

He is strongly inclined towards The Council of Esus (although the weightings haven't been updated since that was introduced so his favorite religion in the game is OO)

Kael very slightly updated the weights in 0.41 (too slightly to have much effects). Flauros is now 25 both to OO and CoE. Since he has no negative weights, it doesn't prevent him from adopting RoK or Empyrean the moment it gets to one of his cities...

So FFH2 humans have nothing to do with our human species? They just walk on two legs and look like we do? Psychological, they are completely different?

Not really, I don't get PPQ's statement that moral standarts of our world can't be applied to FfH characters. They can. In the Lore forums, we pass moral judgements on characters every time. They are certainly no Fair Folk. It's just moral relativistic mind games that appeal to a large base of FfH fams.

While the alignment system of FfH can define a morally "grey" character as technically Good because he fights on the side of good gods (and that's what PPQ really meant, I think), not everyone shares the alignment system's option (Einion and Cassiel certainly wouldn't describe Basium as "good").

Of course, there are some psychological differences and Values Dissonances, but there are some between an average modern person and an average medieval person, too.

The manual clearly says that Mercurians are rebellious (aka fallen angels),

Rebellious =/= fallen. They rebelled against the Compact that prevented them from fighting demons, but not from The One (ultimate Creator). They hate demons (and anyone who uses magic of vaguely demonic nature, and anyone who had been in the same room with demon once in a time...) and mercilessly fight with them.

If a nation is more likely to side with the first it is considered good, and if it is to side with the later it is considered evil.

Well, not only anglels/demons. Just good/evil gods would suffice. For most nations, it's more clear cut then that, though.

 

[Honor]

I have been advocating the implementation of some kind of penalty for civs that adopt religions against their alignment, myself. Thus far, to no avail.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I have been advocating the implementation of some kind of penalty for civs that adopt religions against their alignment, myself. Thus far, to no avail.

I'd like more light rewards for following the lore, not penalties. Rewards are usually more fun to the players, although penalties implemented in a certain way can present interesting strategic choices, too.

 

[Doug Piranha]

This is becouse the queen of the Calibim Alexis invented the ritual that transforms you into a vampire. And only her people know the secret. It has nothing to do with blood, and everything with sucking peoples soles out and eating them.

Vampires are not evil, just foot fetishists!

 

[Corlis]

Rebellious =/= fallen. They rebelled against the Compact that prevented them from fighting demons, but not from The One (ultimate Creator). They hate demons (and anyone who uses magic of vaguely demonic nature, and anyone who had been in the same room with demon once in a time...) and mercilessly fight with them.

Likewise, Brigit is a rebellious angel, but that doesn't make her evil.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

I dont understand why making golems out of bone would be considered evil. The elohim or the ljosalfar might consider them abominations

Just as Treants would almost certainly view wooden buildings + tools in the same manner.

Some vampires do drink blood from time to time, it just isnt required. They extend their life by feeding on their opponents soul, its a magical act, not a digestive one. River of Blood and Bloodpets allude to this, the names aren't literal (sect of flies isnt actually an army of flies).

I like the idea that vampires allow and encourage such misinformation.