FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[JFSebastian]

I do agree that Doviello might need something to make have a bit more appeal. Some nice mechanic. I also think wolves and their worldspell needs more tweaking.

I agree. I think they are balanced, but need a few more gimmicks to increase their fun factor. I had a thread a while back where I suggested a few ideas regarding wolves and how they tie in with the Doviello if anyone missed it.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=305903

Another thing I think would help a LOT would be to beef up their flavor with some really outrageous unit sounds. We need some bloodthirsty battle yells and units basically screaming their heads off when they attack.

 

[Imuratep]

I think the ideas in FF 0.44 (currently not released) are quite cool. I wonder how they will play.

12. Bonus strength from the Doviello Worldspell will be maintained when a wolf becomes a wolf-pack (through battle or Wolf Mechanics).
13. Wolf-Packs can merge together (combines both empower levels and adds 2).
14. A Wolf Pack that exceeds Empower 5 gains 2 strength and resets back down to no Empower promotions.

 

[25Hour]

Speaking as a HUGE warmonger myself (a proud Boudica player, in fact), I can safely say that I really don't like playing the Doviello. Because:

1) All of their mechanics are geared towards having no choice but to warrior-rush the opposition. Mostly I'd just like a few interesting middlegame mechanics, something to look forward to teching to so that the early game wasn't so utterly stale (especially since it's mainly driven by the certainty of being quickly outclassed by the other civs' unique mechanics). I like the aggressive orientation, but aggressive doesn't have to mean dying if you don't wipe out all the other civs in the first 100 turns.

2) From what I can tell, the Doviello's intended play style is geared towards teching up the axeman-champion line so as to steamroll opponents. But the Doviello's hero unit (though awesome) is on the peacemonger's way up the tech tree with all the cool econ bonuses, which effectively translates to them never getting a hero. BAH.

If the Doviello were to get a unique mechanic, it should be there, to give some middlegame-oriented reason of following the Engineering line to the hero. Possibly a building that grants a free Bounty Hunter promotion to units built in the city, plus Doviello-specific upgrades to it the further one goes up the Engineering line. Or something!

 

[Kenjister]

I second the free bounty hunter promotion for Doviello UU's. However, it is intended that the Doviello shine early and then are outclassed until the end when they get the War Machine.
They already have the unique upgrade mechanic that allows them to build armies from slaves when invading, giving them an advantage when it comes to sustaining an attack.
On the other hand, I don't know why you wouldn't want to go down the Engineering line. The road movement bonus is amazing!

 

[25Hour]

On the other hand, I don't know why you wouldn't want to go down the Engineering line. The road movement bonus is amazing!

Perhaps-- but the meat/potatoes of the Doviello are in their combat abilities. I'd argue that time would be better spent going down the religion line, which ends in Berserkers and also nabs you strong disciple units. You could both do this and acquire iron for about the same beaker cost that would be necessary to gain the Machinery tech-- and while it's definitely a strong hero, it's not strong enough to justify sacrificing that much of your army's strength for. This is why I advocate giving the Doviello something else along the Engineering line-- because as it stands, it's really pretty impractical given its generally defensive orientation (crossbowmen, anyone?). Plus, the Doviello aren't exactly masters of teching, so they have to choose wisely.

Can any Doviello players attest to how much of an advantage the worker-promotion thing is? It doesn't seem like it would be that much of a godsend, although I've little experience with it.

Scratch that last part-- it JUST occurred to me about the Slavery civic's 25% capture rate.

 

[Kenjister]

I guess are disagreement lies on how much we value the War Machine... You are right though, the Metal line is usually the first path I take, then down Engineering afterwards. I don't really think that the Doviello have that many combat advantages though, especially since I don't belive Battlemasters get a +25% vs. Melee. I mainly pursue it since they usually have quite a few experienced units to upgrade.

As for the worker upgrade thing, it isn't great for using as shock troops (they don't get metals right away), but they do make great city garrisons, freeing up your crack troops for more pillaging or invasion.

 

[Imuratep]

Another point though a little one: I suggest to give Kithra Kindrael defensive strikes as he is a horse archer hero. It doesn't make sense that normal horse archers have defensive strikes whilst a corresponding hero has none.

 

[Marnok]

Another point though a little one: I suggest to give Kithra Kindrael defensive strikes as he is a horse archer hero. It doesn't make sense that normal horse archers have defensive strikes whilst a corresponding hero has none.

I think it can make sense - the defensive strikes are massed swarms of arrows fired at attacking armies, which one archer might find hard to achieve.

 

[Imuratep]

So why do gilden silveric, arthendain and teutorix have them? With the same logic they should lose defensive strikes and I'm sure noone wants this.

 

[bonedog]

It's already been mentioned by others in this thread, but I feel Tsunami really needs to be toned down. In my recent game I decided to crank the Armageddon counter all the way up to collect a few Trophies. It eventually hit 100, and I got a bit worried when a 33 Str big bad monster and his Ira buddies showed up right at my doorstep, especially since quite a few of my units were still running around Enraged and a bunch had just gone poof. But I had these two Speakers, and the Avatar was right next to the coast... Two consecutive Tsunamis later, and he was already down to ~16, which was easy pickings for my well-fed Losha.

Sure, Tsunami's got the big limitation of being coastal-only, but this just doesn't seem right somehow.

 

[WarKirby]

I don't think tsunami needs toned down at all.

It just needs to be taken away from the cultists. And given to archmages as an alternative Water III spell. Maybe a bit more powerful.

Of course, then what would cultists have? hmmm

 

[Imuratep]

A really mindtwisting spell that lets the victim see the nameless horrors of the deep before his inner eye?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

1. Floating Eye (which doesn't fit well in Metamagic and should be replaced with Ring of Warding there)

2. Mutation (the pedia still clearly indicates that the OO priests are involved in experiments to mutate victims into stronger soldiers, and I don't like having Mutation come both from the passive effect of Chaos mana and a Chaos spell. Chaos II should be Summon Chaos Marauder, which would be strong from a level 2 summon but would start with Enraged and Burnign Blood, or some equivalent thereof.)

3. Call to the Deep (a new spell that summons random sea monsters and/or works like Mesmerize on sea monsters)


I also think that Cultists should loose Water Walking, and that Speakers should have a spell that ca give a temporary water walking promotion to its whole stack (at least to melee and disciple units, probably not Mounted. On the other hand, in Fall of Cuantine it is Rosier Oathtaker, a mounted unit, that puts on the Speaker's mask and can thus walk on water. Maybe Speakers should start with a Mask equipment that grants them waterwalking and can be given to other units.)

 

[Imuratep]

1. Floating Eye (which doesn't fit well in Metamagic and should be replaced with Ring of Warding there)

2. Mutation (the pedia still clearly indicates that the OO priests are involved in experiments to mutate victims into stronger soldiers, and I don't like having Mutation come both from the passive effect of Chaos mana and a Chaos spell. Chaos II should be Summon Chaos Marauder, which would be strong from a level 2 summon but would start with Enraged and Burnign Blood, or some equivalent thereof.)

3. Call to the Deep (a new spell that summons random sea monsters and/or works like Mesmerize on sea monsters)

I only like suggestion 2 as I can see the link to the Old Ones, but with suggestion 1 I don't see the link (I don't know is there any thread that differentiates OO from Lovecrafts myths?), but you are the person knowing most about the lore of FFH, so you teach probably show the unknowing . I never liked Tsunami very much for OO as it fixed them to much on the sea both mechanicwise and flavorwise. For me the most interesting part of the whole religion is the agony it spreads. That's why I think it would be better if one of the two OO spells had nothing to do with the sea (I prefer keeping the Speaker spell as it corresponds in some way with Cultists summoning Cthulhu to earth - though it summons only one of his servants and not Cthulhu himself as in Call of Cthulhu.).

 

[Nor'easter]

I know you've got AI on your to-do list. Here's something I'd like to suggest you keep in mind.

The AI seems to handle Kuriotate settlements poorly. In my current game (started patch r, continued under patch q, playing as the Kurios), I checked my settlements and saw that in each one the AI had assigned my one citizen to work a farmed tile. Since settlements can't grow, it would make more sense to work a cottaged tile or a tile with a resource that provides commerce (e.g., gold, incense, fur).

Also, I was running the Liberty civic, with one free specialist in each city. In each settlement the AI had made the specialist an engineer. Since settlements can't build anything, it would make more sense to have the AI assign the specialist to be a merchant, sage, or bard, I think.

In my game I of course reassigned the citizens to work different tiles and changed the engineer specialists to something else, but obviously an AI-run Kuriotate civ isn't going to do that.

I know that settlements are primarily for claiming territory, but nonetheless there are ways to have them contribute something, however small, to your empire rather than nothing at all.

 

[Borya]

So windmill now gives +1 , +2 , +2 (with Machinery).
What's the point of building mines now?

 

[Methuselah]

So windmill now gives +1 , +2 , +2 (with Machinery).
What's the point of building mines now?

Because you can't get windmills until engineering, and they won't give you resources.

 

[Imuratep]

Another point that I'd like to see adressed is that tower of mastery should have an effect if you turn the victory condition off, similar to altar of the luonnotar. My friends and I always play with these options turned off to have a final showdown between each other and it's a pity if a whole path of wonders is weakened (because then you build only the towers that you really need, not all towers to get the final)

 

[Nor'easter]

Another point that I'd like to see adressed is that tower of mastery should have an effect if you turn the victory condition off, similar to altar of the luonnotar. My friends and I always play with these options turned off to have a final showdown between each other and it's a pity if a whole paths of wonders is weakened (because then you build only the towers that you really need, not all towers to get the final)

I made a similar request/suggestion a while back, and so have others, but it has stayed the same for a long time now, so I think Kael is happy with it as it is. I suppose it's possible that if he sees an idea for the Tower of Mastery that he likes he'll consider adding it, but at this point in the mod's development I wouldn't expect it.

 

[Yaotzin]

So windmill now gives +1 , +2 , +2 (with Machinery).
What's the point of building mines now?

1) You can't even build windmills until Engineering, and they aren't great until Machinery.
2) You need . Grassland city with a couple hills for example.
3) You're RoK. 4 is certainly competitive with 1/2/2.
4) Added bonus, they give resources. Dwarves with their earth mana and Arete will certainly still be spamming them, for others it's situational. A good balance, I think. Better than mines being the only sane option at least.