Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

[Ryansinbela]

We could use a specific Kraal for the Zulu

 

[Lord Lakely]

I want to ask you all something: what are the chances that Mali gets added in the Antiquity Sahara instead of the hypothetical Ghana? I know Mali is already quite similar to Songhai, and I also know that Mali is definitely a medieval kingdom — but look, it wouldn’t be the first or even the second time that a medieval civ is placed in the Antiquity Age for gameplay reasons.

I mean, I believe there’s a not-insignificant possibility that Mali could be added instead of Ghana simply because it’s more well-known and better documented historically. Do we even have any idea what Ghana’s associated wonder would be, for example?

it would be a weird choice if Wagadu/Ghana is already... attested to have existed?

Like, there is always going to be SOME overlap between Ghana and Mali, but it would make sense for the antiquity civ to be named Ghana. Mali can either then be added later on its own, or vicariously via a leader (musa, sundiata).

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Mali can either then be added later on its own, or vicariously via a leader (musa, sundiata).

I think the latter is more likely.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

We could use a specific Kraal for the Zulu

That's what I thought of as well.
Though in my opinion I wouldn't necessarily correlate one with a wonder, but since every civ has to have an associated wonder now, that's what we might get.

Like, there is always going to be SOME overlap between Ghana and Mali, but it would make sense for the antiquity civ to be named Ghana. Mali can either then be added later on its own, or vicariously via a leader (musa, sundiata).

I believe that the biggest pull towards including Mali in past games is their leaders. Since leaders aren't tied to civs anymore it makes more sense that Ghana could be the Antiquity civ, and Mansa Musa or Sundiata Keita could be potential leaders for West African civs.

 

[Xandinho]

From what I quickly looked up there is a mosque in Koumbi Saleh that is an archaeological and world heritage site, so I would say it’s a possibility. At least it feels more likely than finding a good Zulu wonder.

I've been doing some research too, and I think El-Ghaba is also a strong candidate. From what I understand, the capital of Ghana was made up of two cities (which apparently later merged into one), and El-Ghaba was one of them — specifically, the one where the king resided. So, I believe the closest interpretation of El-Ghaba would be a large fortified royal district. I think it fits very well within the concept of a wonder.

it would be a weird choice if Wagadu/Ghana is already... attested to have existed?

Like, there is always going to be SOME overlap between Ghana and Mali, but it would make sense for the antiquity civ to be named Ghana. Mali can either then be added later on its own, or vicariously via a leader (musa, sundiata).

It’s true that Songhai is already quite similar to Mali, and having both might be a bit much (though I wouldn’t completely rule out the chances of Mali appearing, as it seems to be a fairly popular civ among fans). Mansa Musa, in fact, is highly likely to show up at some point.

 

[socratic]

Is it possible we can see Civs/leaders releasing alongside the upcoming changes to legacy paths and religion? (much like Dido/Phoenicia released with Loyalty mechanics in Civ 6) There a lot of potential religion-related leaders that fill gaps. Emperor Constantine, Mansa Musa, Saladin, etc.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Is it possible we can see Civs/leaders releasing alongside the upcoming changes to legacy paths and religion? (much like Dido/Phoenicia released with Loyalty mechanics in Civ 6) There a lot of potential religion-related leaders that fill gaps. Emperor Constantine, Mansa Musa, Saladin, etc.

Depends on how far the Devs are actually planning ahead. The general impression that I have, is that they come up with the core concepts first, and then pick leaders that could more or less suit these ideas and mechanics.

Which in itself implies that they're not 'saving up' leaders or civs with the idea of later gameplay expansions.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Is it possible we can see Civs/leaders releasing alongside the upcoming changes to legacy paths and religion? (much like Dido/Phoenicia released with Loyalty mechanics in Civ 6) There a lot of potential religion-related leaders that fill gaps. Emperor Constantine, Mansa Musa, Saladin, etc.

Considering heads of states aren't just considered anymore we could potentially see leaders like John Calvin, Zoroaster, Bodhidharma etc., which were essentially Great Prophets in earlier games, like Confucius.
Though I guess John Calvin could count as the former too.

 

[moondog385]

Is it possible we can see Civs/leaders releasing alongside the upcoming changes to legacy paths and religion? (much like Dido/Phoenicia released with Loyalty mechanics in Civ 6) There a lot of potential religion-related leaders that fill gaps. Emperor Constantine, Mansa Musa, Saladin, etc.

I would be shocked if those changes weren’t in an expansion pack.

 

[Wabnosa]

Creeks would make a good Modern NA civ following Tecumseh's line. Red Stick war was a direct extension of Tecumsehs call. Creeks are traditionally Expansive and Militaristic. They have a tradition to make a new town when a city gets so big. Tecumseh has Cherokee kin living today. Cherokee are Diplomatic and Economic. Modern greeks in terms of influence. They convinced the us government to build ft smith which they used as cover to push the Osage out of eastern Oklahoma. They had alot of influence in Washington.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Okay, i think I have Europe figured out, more or less:

So to start with, I think we need to first look at what lines should start in Antiquity and continue all the way into Modern. Currently, there are only two European Civs in Antiquity: Rome and Greece.
Ideally, their lines should stay in the same area as a direct continuation of their antiquity cultures:

ROME => Medieval ITALY => Modern ITALY
GREECE => Medieval GREECE => Modern GREECE

The direct continuation of Rome and Greece is the same Civ: Byzantium. So, we add Byzantium as a shared middle stage to their lines, and add an Italian and Greek Civ in Modern to facilitate a good ending: Sardinia-Piedmont and the Hellenic Republic look like the best options here:

I would propose adding an Italian Civ in Exploration to streamline Rome's line into a direct Italian path. Venice I think is the best option for several reasons, the main of which is that its empire spanned the entire Adriatic, including bits of Greece. Venice could, besides Byzantium, serve as a middle-stage for both Rome and Greece:

Then we'd have to look what lines start in Exploration: Currently, these are the following:

• The slavic line which starts in Bulgaria and ends in Russia
• the French line which starts with Normans and ends in French Empire
• the British line which starts with Normans and ends in America and Great Britain
• the German line which starts with Normans and ends in Prussia
• the Spanish line which starts with Spain and ends in Mexico

Immediately we notice that the Normans are a bottleneck Civ, having too many singular unlocks. As such, we need alternative starts in Exploration for the same Modern Age destinations.

> The Franks can be added as an alternate start for the French and German lines.
> A second "British" Civ can be added as an alternate start for the French and English lines.

The large amount of French or French-adjacent leaders also facilitates this push, as each would be able to lead a separate line in seeds where all three of Napoleon, Lafayette and Charlemagne appear.

If the Franks and English were to be added, they can't just all start from Rome and Greece, which in turn means we need more Civs in Antiquity to facilitate this expansion/

> The Goths provide an alternative way into Germany, Spain and Italy.
> The Celts provide an alternative way into France and England.

I would propose Gaul as the Celtic Antiquity Civ, as they're better attested than the others and are directly located in France. Gaul and Rome can serve as the 'Origin' Civs for the French line:

Lafayette, Charlemagne and Napoleon are all associated with a secondary Civ (America, Germany and Italy respectively), which means that one of them is always free to lead the French line (ideally Lafayette) while the other two can freely branch out into Germany and Italy.

Charlemagne and Friedrich both lead the German line, so I don't think it's a bad idea to expand the German line to a three-act arc as well:

The Goths are chosen due to their connection to Spain. Teutons can be added as a secondary option in Exploration, specifically to anticipate a future appearance of Prussia, and can serve as an alternative Exploration Civ for Catherine (who was from Pommerania).

Additionally, the Goths can unlock Venice, as the area around Venice was controlled by the Ostrogoths:

And Spain (where I'd suggest the replace Greece as an Unlock):

So at this point, I'd propose the following Civs to be added:

• Gaul (Antiquity): Starting point for the French line
• Goths (Antiquity): Standard starting point for all Germanic Civs, with historical ties to Spain and Italy as well.
• Byzantium (Exploration) : Medieval Greece and a direct continuation of Rome
• Venice (Exploration) : Medieval Italy with direct ties to Greece.
• Sardinia-Piedmont (Modern) : Precursor of Unified Italy, logical Modern Transition for Rome, Greece, Byzantium and Venice.
• Franks (Exploration): Alternative start for the French line, and can work as a starting point for the German line in Exploration

I'd also suggest Hellas (Modern Greece) as an alternative end point for the Greece => Byzantium line that remains in the same geographical area and isn't Turkey, and Teutons (Medieval Germany) as it can be lead by three leaders (Charlemagne, Catherine & Friedrich) and gives an alternative pathway into Prussia and potentially Austria.

Now we look at the British and American line which currently has only one starting point in Exploration: The Norman Civ. I think it would be wise to add a Civ in Exploration that both Franklin and Lovelace can lead and that makes for a logical predecessor for both America and Great Britain.

There are a few options here:

• Ireland and Scotland, which are both Celtic Civs and can descent from the Gauls
• Denmark, which ruled England during the Danelaw
• England proper, for obvious reasons.

Out of those, Denmark is the most intriguing option, as it gives us a Civ from Scandinavia and this opens up possibilities towards a Nordic line. Alternatively, Scotland and Ireland are both unrepresented in the game so far, though it begs the question why Lovelace OR Franklin would be leading them:

Thematically, specifcally because Lovelace and Franklin are both scientists, I think Scotland is the best choice. Denmark is a Civ that I would heavily suggest as being added due to their historical importance: So I would propose this for the British and American line:

Adding Denmark also means we'll need a logical starting point for that line, and I suggest adding the Old Norse (Vikings) in Antiquity as a starting point. We'll pick up on that next.

As far as leaders are concerned, we're almost certaining getting another British leader down the line. I personally really like Godred Crovan, the King of the Isles (which encompasses the Isles of Man and the Hebrides). I don't think he's a necessary inclusion but I just want to throw his name out there in case a dev stumbles across this topic and reads it .

Denmark would be the first of what believe should blossom into a three act Scandinavian line, with Denmark -in the form of Vikings, the Danelaw and the Kalmar Union- as its centrepiece. This line would need an Antiquity starting point.

Goths are probably the best choice out of the Antiquity civs I've already proposed (at this point we've already added them and Gaul to the roster), but I'd advocate for a separate Old Norse Civ. Many of the Exploration Era factions are direct decendants of viking kingdoms including:

• The Normans
• The English (via the Danelaw)
• The Danes
• The Swedes
• The Celtic kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland
• Russia (via the Kievan Rus')

In other words, 'Old Norse' as a Civ covers quite a few potential Civs in later Eras and that's what you want for your Antiquity Civs. The Civ doesn't have to be called 'Old Norse' btw. I call it that way, because that's what the Civ is. It can be called Norway, Viking or Iceland for all I care. The idea behind it is nevertheless the same.

The logical path for the Nordic Civilizations would be Old Norse => Denmark => Sweden by default, ideally with one leader for the entire line. This leader can be anyone - Alfred Nobel, Margaret I, Leif Erikson, Harald Bluetooth, Soren Kierkegaard, etc...

However, Old Norse is interesting because it had a successor kingdom in Eastern Europe called the 'Kievan Rus', and that political entity is the birthplace of Russia.

Russia's current line is acceptable only because of how limited the current roster is. Persia, Rome or Greece into either Mongolia or Bulgaria is the best you can do with the options currently available. I believe the Russian line should be retconned as more Civs are released however, as there are a few paths that make sense:

• Scythia => Mongolia - The Golden Horde was an important political Entity in the Area, so the connection with Mongolia should be retained.
• [Balkan Civ] => Bulgaria - This one is acceptable due to Bulgaria's role in Russia's christianization - many aspects of Russian religious culture were adapted from Bulgarian ideas.
• Armenia => Georgia - This is a very good starting point for Russia as well, due to Russia's kindred culture and religious beliefs, as well as Geographical proximity.
• Old Norse => Kievan Rus' - This is by far the most historically accurate link and is probably what Civ7 should work towards (but it can be postponed if the Byzantines are added to Exploration)
• Goths => Teutons - This link is viable for Catherine specifically.

Because ALL the lines lead directly into Russia, I do not believe we need a second Russian leader for the moment being, unless we can provide an alternative Modern Civ for them to lead.

In terms of priority, I believe adding the Old Norse is the most important step at the moment, followed by a potential addition of the Scythians to replace Assyria as a pre-req for Mongolia.

So to recap again: I think the following Civs should be added:

Antiquity: Celts (Gaul), Goths, Old Norse
Exploration: Byzantium, Denmark, Franks, Venice
Modern: Modern Italy (Sardinia-Piedmont)

And the following are suggested:

Exploration: Medieval Celts (Ireland/Scotland), Medieval Germans (Teutons), Medieval Russia (Kievan Rus')
Modern: Modern Greece (Hellas)


Then we get to Eastern Europe and Bulgaria. Currently Bulgaria is entered via Greece which is *acceptable* due to roster limitations and Persia which is a very bad choice that we also have to (begrudgingly) accept due to roster limitations.

This is fine in and of itself, but geopolitically Bulgaria shouldn't be part of the Russian OR Greek line. It works as a crossroads to switch from the Greeks to the Russians, but as stated before, the Greek and Russian lines should also be two separate lines, and if anything were to act as a bridge is should be Byzantium, not Bulgaria.

Bulgaria itself can be the centrepiece of a Balkanic or south-European line. This line would need to have an Antiquity start that isn't Greece and an end that isn't Russia.

For the Antiquity Civ, there are a few options:

• Thrace is the direct ancestor Civ to Bulgaria
• Scythia is close enough of an emulation due to its connection to the Volga Bulgarians who may or may not be their ancestors.
• Dacia, which is early Romania, is a solid choice that could open up connections to Central Europe (Bohemia, Poland

However my personal choice is Illyria. Illyria fulfills the same role as Dacia would, but is better connected: the Illyrian coast was later controlled by the Venetians and Byzantines, which could both be links. The Slavs of Central Europe presumably descended from the Illyrians as well, providing a link to the Bulgarians, Bohemians and Poles.

So in other words, you have a pretty unique Civ here that can connect itself directly to many Civs you may want to see added down the road.

For the Modern Civ, again a few options are available:

• Romania, Bulgaria's northern neighbour which gained independence around the same time (though was consistently a weaker power)
• Serbia, which was under Austrian control for most of the Modern Age
• Yugoslavia, which is probably the BEST choice objectively speaking, but is also very recent choice
• Austria-Hungary which isn't slavic at all, but had most of the Balkans within its sphere of influence.

I'm personally in favour of picking Yugoslavia here, specifically to have the southern European line be completed by autonomous Civs in that area. Austria-Hungary is a Civ that should always be accounted for as an end point for Central European and Germanic lines.

So, for the Balkanic line, I would suggest this:

and I think that plugs all the missing gaps in the current Euro roster! It of course doesn't complete the set of Euro Civs even in the slightest: Poland, Netherlands, Portugal, Austria and Sweden are still missing. But I can address that in a future post.

To recap:

Antiquity:

• Gaul
• Goth
• Illyria
• Old Norse
• Scythia (geographically not Europe but could lead into Europe)

Exploration:

• Byzantium
• Denmark
• Franks
• Kievan Rus'
• Venice

Modern:

• Modern Italy
• Yugoslavia

Optional additions:

• Scotland or Ireland in Exploration
• Teutons/HRE in Exploration
• Hellenic Republic in Modern

Future additions I didn't take into account:

• Central European lines (Austria, Bohemia, Poland, etc)
• Portugal in Exploration
• Netherlands in Exploration or Modern
• Sweden in Modern

I rest my case. If any of you have additions or suggestions, i'd love to hear them, and I'll see if I can map them out.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As much as I like Ancient Greece/Hellenistic history, I could do without a modern-day Hellas counterpart personally.
I'd rather replace that with something like Poland Lithuanian Commonwealth (I think you could make it Modern)

I'm also not sure if I'd want both the Franks and the Teutons at the same time. Humankind did it and I thought it was weird too. In my mind Franks could work as both a France and German starting point if we had to choose one.
But with Normans already in and being part English/French I think the Teutons would work better now which could lead to Prussia, Russia, and Polish Lithuania Commonwealth if we're basing it off of the Teutonic Order territories.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Okay, i think I have Europe figured out, more or less:

So to start with, I think we need to first look at what lines should start in Antiquity and continue all the way into Modern. Currently, there are only two European Civs in Antiquity: Rome and Greece.
Ideally, their lines should stay in the same area as a direct continuation of their antiquity cultures:

ROME => Medieval ITALY => Modern ITALY
GREECE => Medieval GREECE => Modern GREECE

The direct continuation of Rome and Greece is the same Civ: Byzantium. So, we add Byzantium as a shared middle stage to their lines, and add an Italian and Greek Civ in Modern to facilitate a good ending: Sardinia-Piedmont and the Hellenic Republic look like the best options here:

View attachment 738863

I would propose adding an Italian Civ in Exploration to streamline Rome's line into a direct Italian path. Venice I think is the best option for several reasons, the main of which is that its empire spanned the entire Adriatic, including bits of Greece. Venice could, besides Byzantium, serve as a middle-stage for both Rome and Greece:
View attachment 738864
Then we'd have to look what lines start in Exploration: Currently, these are the following:

• The slavic line which starts in Bulgaria and ends in Russia
• the French line which starts with Normans and ends in French Empire
• the British line which starts with Normans and ends in America and Great Britain
• the German line which starts with Normans and ends in Prussia
• the Spanish line which starts with Spain and ends in Mexico

Immediately we notice that the Normans are a bottleneck Civ, having too many singular unlocks. As such, we need alternative starts in Exploration for the same Modern Age destinations.

> The Franks can be added as an alternate start for the French and German lines.
> A second "British" Civ can be added as an alternate start for the French and English lines.

The large amount of French or French-adjacent leaders also facilitates this push, as each would be able to lead a separate line in seeds where all three of Napoleon, Lafayette and Charlemagne appear.

If the Franks and English were to be added, they can't just all start from Rome and Greece, which in turn means we need more Civs in Antiquity to facilitate this expansion/

> The Goths provide an alternative way into Germany, Spain and Italy.
> The Celts provide an alternative way into France and England.

I would propose Gaul as the Celtic Antiquity Civ, as they're better attested than the others and are directly located in France. Gaul and Rome can serve as the 'Origin' Civs for the French line:

View attachment 738865

Lafayette, Charlemagne and Napoleon are all associated with a secondary Civ (America, Germany and Italy respectively), which means that one of them is always free to lead the French line (ideally Lafayette) while the other two can freely branch out into Germany and Italy.

Charlemagne and Friedrich both lead the German line, so I don't think it's a bad idea to expand the German line to a three-act arc as well:

View attachment 738866

The Goths are chosen due to their connection to Spain. Teutons can be added as a secondary option in Exploration, specifically to anticipate a future appearance of Prussia, and can serve as an alternative Exploration Civ for Catherine (who was from Pommerania).

Additionally, the Goths can unlock Venice, as the area around Venice was controlled by the Ostrogoths:

View attachment 738868

And Spain (where I'd suggest the replace Greece as an Unlock):

View attachment 738870


So at this point, I'd propose the following Civs to be added:

• Gaul (Antiquity): Starting point for the French line
• Goths (Antiquity): Standard starting point for all Germanic Civs, with historical ties to Spain and Italy as well.
• Byzantium (Exploration) : Medieval Greece and a direct continuation of Rome
• Venice (Exploration) : Medieval Italy with direct ties to Greece.
• Sardinia-Piedmont (Modern) : Precursor of Unified Italy, logical Modern Transition for Rome, Greece, Byzantium and Venice.
• Franks (Exploration): Alternative start for the French line, and can work as a starting point for the German line in Exploration

I'd also suggest Hellas (Modern Greece) as an alternative end point for the Greece => Byzantium line that remains in the same geographical area and isn't Turkey, and Teutons (Medieval Germany) as it can be lead by three leaders (Charlemagne, Catherine & Friedrich) and gives an alternative pathway into Prussia and potentially Austria.

Now we look at the British and American line which currently has only one starting point in Exploration: The Norman Civ. I think it would be wise to add a Civ in Exploration that both Franklin and Lovelace can lead and that makes for a logical predecessor for both America and Great Britain.

There are a few options here:

• Ireland and Scotland, which are both Celtic Civs and can descent from the Gauls
• Denmark, which ruled England during the Danelaw
• England proper, for obvious reasons.

Out of those, Denmark is the most intriguing option, as it gives us a Civ from Scandinavia and this opens up possibilities towards a Nordic line. Alternatively, Scotland and Ireland are both unrepresented in the game so far, though it begs the question why Lovelace OR Franklin would be leading them:

Thematically, specifcally because Lovelace and Franklin are both scientists, I think Scotland is the best choice. Denmark is a Civ that I would heavily suggest as being added due to their historical importance: So I would propose this for the British and American line:

View attachment 738874

Adding Denmark also means we'll need a logical starting point for that line, and I suggest adding the Old Norse (Vikings) in Antiquity as a starting point. We'll pick up on that next.

As far as leaders are concerned, we're almost certaining getting another British leader down the line. I personally really like Godred Crovan, the King of the Isles (which encompasses the Isles of Man and the Hebrides). I don't think he's a necessary inclusion but I just want to throw his name out there in case a dev stumbles across this topic and reads it .

Denmark would be the first of what believe should blossom into a three act Scandinavian line, with Denmark -in the form of Vikings, the Danelaw and the Kalmar Union- as its centrepiece. This line would need an Antiquity starting point.

Goths are probably the best choice out of the Antiquity civs I've already proposed (at this point we've already added them and Gaul to the roster), but I'd advocate for a separate Old Norse Civ. Many of the Exploration Era factions are direct decendants of viking kingdoms including:

• The Normans
• The English (via the Danelaw)
• The Danes
• The Swedes
• The Celtic kingdoms of Scotland and Ireland
• Russia (via the Kievan Rus')

In other words, 'Old Norse' as a Civ covers quite a few potential Civs in later Eras and that's what you want for your Antiquity Civs. The Civ doesn't have to be called 'Old Norse' btw. I call it that way, because that's what the Civ is. It can be called Norway, Viking or Iceland for all I care. The idea behind it is nevertheless the same.

The logical path for the Nordic Civilizations would be Old Norse => Denmark => Sweden by default, ideally with one leader for the entire line. This leader can be anyone - Alfred Nobel, Margaret I, Leif Erikson, Harald Bluetooth, Soren Kierkegaard, etc...

However, Old Norse is interesting because it had a successor kingdom in Eastern Europe called the 'Kievan Rus', and that political entity is the birthplace of Russia.

Russia's current line is acceptable only because of how limited the current roster is. Persia, Rome or Greece into either Mongolia or Bulgaria is the best you can do with the options currently available. I believe the Russian line should be retconned as more Civs are released however, as there are a few paths that make sense:

• Scythia => Mongolia - The Golden Horde was an important political Entity in the Area, so the connection with Mongolia should be retained.
• [Balkan Civ] => Bulgaria - This one is acceptable due to Bulgaria's role in Russia's christianization - many aspects of Russian religious culture were adapted from Bulgarian ideas.
• Armenia => Georgia - This is a very good starting point for Russia as well, due to Russia's kindred culture and religious beliefs, as well as Geographical proximity.
• Old Norse => Kievan Rus' - This is by far the most historically accurate link and is probably what Civ7 should work towards (but it can be postponed if the Byzantines are added to Exploration)
• Goths => Teutons - This link is viable for Catherine specifically.

View attachment 738905

Because ALL the lines lead directly into Russia, I do not believe we need a second Russian leader for the moment being, unless we can provide an alternative Modern Civ for them to lead.

In terms of priority, I believe adding the Old Norse is the most important step at the moment, followed by a potential addition of the Scythians to replace Assyria as a pre-req for Mongolia.

So to recap again: I think the following Civs should be added:

Antiquity: Celts (Gaul), Goths, Old Norse
Exploration: Byzantium, Denmark, Franks, Venice
Modern: Modern Italy (Sardinia-Piedmont)

And the following are suggested:

Exploration: Medieval Celts (Ireland/Scotland), Medieval Germans (Teutons), Medieval Russia (Kievan Rus')
Modern: Modern Greece (Hellas)


Then we get to Eastern Europe and Bulgaria. Currently Bulgaria is entered via Greece which is *acceptable* due to roster limitations and Persia which is a very bad choice that we also have to (begrudgingly) accept due to roster limitations.

This is fine in and of itself, but geopolitically Bulgaria shouldn't be part of the Russian OR Greek line. It works as a crossroads to switch from the Greeks to the Russians, but as stated before, the Greek and Russian lines should also be two separate lines, and if anything were to act as a bridge is should be Byzantium, not Bulgaria.

Bulgaria itself can be the centrepiece of a Balkanic or south-European line. This line would need to have an Antiquity start that isn't Greece and an end that isn't Russia.

For the Antiquity Civ, there are a few options:

• Thrace is the direct ancestor Civ to Bulgaria
• Scythia is close enough of an emulation due to its connection to the Volga Bulgarians who may or may not be their ancestors.
• Dacia, which is early Romania, is a solid choice that could open up connections to Central Europe (Bohemia, Poland

However my personal choice is Illyria. Illyria fulfills the same role as Dacia would, but is better connected: the Illyrian coast was later controlled by the Venetians and Byzantines, which could both be links. The Slavs of Central Europe presumably descended from the Illyrians as well, providing a link to the Bulgarians, Bohemians and Poles.

So in other words, you have a pretty unique Civ here that can connect itself directly to many Civs you may want to see added down the road.

For the Modern Civ, again a few options are available:

• Romania, Bulgaria's northern neighbour which gained independence around the same time (though was consistently a weaker power)
• Serbia, which was under Austrian control for most of the Modern Age
• Yugoslavia, which is probably the BEST choice objectively speaking, but is also very recent choice
• Austria-Hungary which isn't slavic at all, but had most of the Balkans within its sphere of influence.

I'm personally in favour of picking Yugoslavia here, specifically to have the southern European line be completed by autonomous Civs in that area. Austria-Hungary is a Civ that should always be accounted for as an end point for Central European and Germanic lines.

So, for the Balkanic line, I would suggest this:


View attachment 738921

and I think that plugs all the missing gaps in the current Euro roster! It of course doesn't complete the set of Euro Civs even in the slightest: Poland, Netherlands, Portugal, Austria and Sweden are still missing. But I can address that in a future post.

To recap:

Antiquity:

• Gaul
• Goth
• Illyria
• Old Norse
• Scythia (geographically not Europe but could lead into Europe)

Exploration:

• Byzantium
• Denmark
• Franks
• Kievan Rus'
• Venice

Modern:

• Modern Italy
• Yugoslavia

Optional additions:

• Scotland or Ireland in Exploration
• Teutons/HRE in Exploration
• Hellenic Republic in Modern

Future additions I didn't take into account:

• Central European lines (Austria, Bohemia, Poland, etc)
• Portugal in Exploration
• Netherlands in Exploration or Modern
• Sweden in Modern

I rest my case. If any of you have additions or suggestions, i'd love to hear them, and I'll see if I can map them out.

Would suggest Florence as another Exploration Italian option with a different playstyle than Venice. But do we need that much Italy?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Two Italies can work, but only because Machiavelli, Augustus and Napoleon all exist. So, I wouldn't mind a second Exploration Italy based on the roster of leaders that we have.

That said, Portugal, Poland, Netherlands, etc.... Slightly higher priority I'd say.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Two Italies can work, but only because Machiavelli, Augustus and Napoleon all exist. So, I wouldn't mind a second Exploration Italy based on the roster of leaders that we have.

That said, Portugal, Poland, Netherlands, etc.... Slightly higher priority I'd say.

True but Florence and Venice would be cool (wouldn’t mind those civs tho)

I need more Fado music in my life

 

[Lord Lakely]

True but Florence and Venice would be cool (wouldn’t mind those civs tho)

The Exploration Italian faction absolutely has to be one of them yeah.

I need more Fado music in my life

Portugal definitely should be added but it's a weird Civ to include in that its Antiquity unlocks are identical to Spain's and then it has no real follow-ups besides Brazil.

Maybe the solution for Spain and Portugal is for them to just be part of the same path.

I mean, it's an eyesore, but if you make the lines into the latino colonial nations "spain + portugal + closest indigenous civ" it could potentially work.

 

[Xandinho]

By the way, I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable for the Italian civ from the Exploration Age could transition into Brazil and Argentina, considering that these countries have some of the largest Italian communities outside of Italy.

 

[Phrozen]

Exploration German civs could also lead to America since Germans were the 2nd largest immigrant group to the US until after the Civil War with large influence in Texas, the Midwest, southern Ohio, northern Kentucky, and Pennsylvania. America does have cities called: Germantown, King of Prussia, Fredericksburg, Pittsburg, Franconia, Carlsbad, Humboldt, and Vienna. Along with many small towns and counties.

 

[Lord Lakely]

By the way, I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable for the Italian civ from the Exploration Age could transition into Brazil and Argentina, considering that these countries have some of the largest Italian communities outside of Italy.

Oh my plan for Argentina is to shade them by making ALL of their upgrade paths go through Europe

NL can also go into Brazil. They had a colony in Natal.

Exploration German civs could also lead to America since Germans were the 2nd largest immigrant group to the US until after the Civil War with large influence in Texas, the Midwest, southern Ohio, northern Kentucky, and Pennsylvania. America does have cities called: Germantown, King of Prussia, Fredericksburg, Pittsburg, Franconia, Carlsbad, Humboldt, and Vienna. Along with many small towns and counties.

I agree. I just didn't feel like doing colonial Civs right now.

Anyway, the rest of Europe, I would propose this for the Central European line which starts with Goths/Illyria and ends in Austria/Poland:

You can have this path be represented by two leaders from Bohemia, Poland or Austria + Machiavelli.

Scandinavia:

It's sort of barren, but if you count it as running parallel with the British path, I think it can work and get away with two leaders.

and finally, for the Dutch line, which is intertwined with Belgium, there are two options, depending on where we put the Netherlands. It should always start with Gaul and Rome in Antiquity, but then we get to a possible variation:

Option 1 is we put NL in Modern, have them be Scientific and Expansionist, with a focus on agriculture and reclaiming land from the sea. Flanders takes the Belgian spot in Exploration as a Homelands focused Cultural/Economic Civ, while Spain can also unlock the Netherlands:

Option two is we put NL in Exploration, have them be Economic and Expansionist, and they become a colonial civ that gets bonuses to Resources in the Distant lands. Belgium is the continuation in Modern, who are Diplomatic and either Economic or Scientific, with a focus on Coal industry. NL then also becomes an unlocker of colonial Civilizations, particularly America, Brazil and Modern Indonesia if it exists.

Personally, I prefer to put the Dutch in Modern. Polders fit the Modern age beautifully, you avoid competition with Venice and Portugal, you tie the Spanish to the Dutch as a line. Exploration Civs also represent their incarnation at the start of the middle Ages and the Dutch republic is a product of the Early Modern Age, which could feasably put the Dutch into Modern due to them being a LATE exploration power anyway. (this is also my reasoning for putting Poland in Modern.)

With that, I believe I've covered most of Europe, so I think i'll try to entangle the Middle East next, and then work my way to Africa and the rest of Asia.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Would suggest Florence as another Exploration Italian option with a different playstyle than Venice. But do we need that much Italy?

I'd second Florence just because it's something new, and I've been wanting a Renaissance themed Italy civ for the longest. And before anyone else says that Venice and Genoa fit the Exploration Age better, Amerigo Vespucci was from Florence.

By the way, I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable for the Italian civ from the Exploration Age could transition into Brazil and Argentina, considering that these countries have some of the largest Italian communities outside of Italy.

I've always thought that Spain, Italy, Inca, maybe Mapuche if they get in, would be a good pathway for Argentina. I had no idea that the Italian community was large in Brazil.