Final Tuning: The "F" stuff

[LukaSlovenia29]

I use Stupas when I'm playing a civ with extra bonuses to GAs or when I'm going for a CV.

 

[Gokudo01]

I'm always dissapointed with Order's Spaceflight Pioneers. It looks like purchasing SS parts with engineers is a thing, but actually you need 3 engineers to build just one part.

Also, I'm beginning to suspect that Tradition is not as strong as it used to.

+1 I feel the same, tradition doesn't feel as strong as before. many nerfs have crippled it, 3 specialist food from the start, and the happiness system is now more harsh with big cities and a little less with lots of smaller cities.
Spaceflight pionneers is c -. It's not bad but it's cleary not great enough as a t3 tenet

 

[Gokudo01]

Reducing the food consumption from specialist in the capital by 1 would be a nice change for
tradition.

 

[ElliotS]

@Gazebo are tradition AI underperforming? That hasn't been my experience, so I'm wondering. Tradition was OP, so it SHOULD feel weaker than before. The important question is if it's balanced or been overdone.

 

[Gazebo]

@Gazebo are tradition AI underperforming? That hasn't been my experience, so I'm wondering. Tradition was OP, so it SHOULD feel weaker than before. The important question is if it's balanced or been overdone.

Not at all. Tradition civs do so well because there’s so little risk and it synergies well with AI builder methods.

G

 

[Workerspam]

Fealty's Divine Right: the needs reduction modifier carries this entire policy. Is it enough?

I've had games where the 1/2 culture per happiness has been an effective 20% boost to my culture, though 5-10% is more typical.

 

[Hinin]

Let's not forget the effect of the Polynesian UI on the MW : all Polynesian units within 3 tiles of a Moai gain +20 % CS. I think that, because the Moai aren't the kind of UI you don't build whenever you have the occasion, this bonus will be seen almost all the time in defensive wars (not like, for example, the Iroquois combat bonus near natural wonders, which is rarely seen, except when you steal a good spot from another civilization just so you can have a NW).

I think the reason why the MW hasn't got some boost to its base combat strenght in the past is because of this.
For example, with this bonus, a MW will have a better fight against a knight than a pikemen (24 v 22.5 for the MW / 25.5 v 25 for the Pikeman), and will beat a Longswordman pretty easily (24 v 18), or even a Samurai (24 vs 21.6).
However, when some promotions come into account, the superior base strength of the Knight and the Samurai will make them superior in the long term against the MW (which compensate the fact that these units are more expensive and require strategic resources).
So, to me, the MW is at its best as a defensive "militia" unit : if your opponents try to invade your islands, this unit can be brought to the field quite quickly, and will provide some good power for its price, when combined with the Moai that is : have your Moai pillaged, or obtain this unit through a CS, and it will be clearly subpar when compared to most unique units.

There are several ways, to my mind, to give a wee more punch to the unit (trying to keep it simple, since "passive abilities aren't AI friendly") :
- reinforce this "defensive militia" aspect by reducing the production cost of the unit a bit (they weren't as equipped as the typical Pikemen after all)
- increase the effect of the "Haka war dance" promotion : -15 % CS seems indeed a good amount. The only thing that bothers me is that the "Feared elephant" promotion already suffers from the fact it is always lost on upgrade, so making the "HWD" promotion have a more powerful effect will definitively bury the "FE" promotion as the "weaker" version. Maybe we could try to find something to make the two promotion a little bit more different (difference in aura size, in the types of units affected... I'm just throwing ideas)
- simply increase the base combat strength of the unit (knowing that it will increase the effect of the bonus from the Moai) : it will force us to buff the Shotelai and the Goedendag a bit, @pineappledan, so that they stay relevant. I'm not really fond of this idea, since as I said the bonus of the Moai already make the unit quite strong (in terms of power/price ratio).
I would be for a mix of the first two ideas : to me, the unit only needs a bit more love (at least to be of some use as a gifted unit), no a flat out buff to base combat strenght.

 

[Voremonger]

Please reduce the combat strength of Anti-Aicraft Gun and Mobile Sam.
Their Civilopedia entry reads that they're supposedly weak to melee attacks but with a combat strength that's almost as high as that of regular melee units they're too universally strong.
This is especially true since they get the Armor Plating promotion for free and because of the free combat strength from Anti-Warmonger Fervor.
I think anti-air units should have the same combat strength as siege units and get the Cover 1 promotion for free.

On a similar note, please change Special Ops so that they get a combat bonus against siege units rather than gunpowder units.
Special Ops are supposedly made for taking out squishy backline units but they're too strong on the front lines.

 

[Stalker0]

So from a wonder standpoint, the main wonder that stands out to me is Borbodur. I can't remember the last time I chose to build it. If I really care to spread my religion, the faith to do it doesn't take much. If I don't have the faith, its because I don't really care to spread my religion and therefore don't need the missionaries.

 

[tu_79]

So from a wonder standpoint, the main wonder that stands out to me is Borbodur. I can't remember the last time I chose to build it. If I really care to spread my religion, the faith to do it doesn't take much. If I don't have the faith, its because I don't really care to spread my religion and therefore don't need the missionaries.

Last time was playing Theodora. Not sure if it was a wise decision. I wanted to spread and purchase religious buildings and I found myself short on faith.

 

[Seyren]

So from a wonder standpoint, the main wonder that stands out to me is Borbodur. I can't remember the last time I chose to build it. If I really care to spread my religion, the faith to do it doesn't take much. If I don't have the faith, its because I don't really care to spread my religion and therefore don't need the missionaries.

Yeah going to vote for Borbodur too. It's the only wonder so far where I am not exactly sure what it's for.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

So from a wonder standpoint, the main wonder that stands out to me is Borbodur. I can't remember the last time I chose to build it. If I really care to spread my religion, the faith to do it doesn't take much. If I don't have the faith, its because I don't really care to spread my religion and therefore don't need the missionaries.

Yeah, I never build Borodubur either. It's not worth it. Even if I found it worth the production it costs, I'd rather just spend my Faith on Missionaries than have wonder Production costs increased when medieval/renaissance/industrial have so many ones worth building. Right now it feels like a poor man's Hagia Sophia, with worse yields, worse gift (Prophet's better than 3 Missionaries), less flexibility as you cannot upgrade a religion with it, it's only getting a better building in exchange. I think Borodubur should really fit a slightly different niche even if it remains religion focused, and that would require it to get some trait.

 

[pineappledan]

Right now Borobodur has no staying power, no noticeable benefit after it is built. It costs 500 and gives 800 worth of free faith purchases immediately (3 missionaries+stupa), but yields the same faith as a base temple going forward (Temple gives 5/2 with grande temple, so it's actually worse).

Essentially, the wonder is a one-time 1 to 1.6 conversion (this does not account for % modifiers for other wonders, it is likely worse than that).

Idea for Borobodur: The wonder gives a unique promotion to missionaries, so the wonder retains its missionary focus, but has more impact throughout the game, if you are focused on conversion. Focusing the wonder on full-game steroids to conversion makes sense, since Stupas are a late-game tourism building. Shared religion is a big boost to tourism, so it becomes the major CV faith building

+5
Grants a free Stupa and one free missionary in the city where it is built
Missionaries on empire receive the 'Bhanak' promotion. (+25% Conversion strength, unit ignores terrain)
Remove the "must be built in a Holy City" restriction

So combined with 10 churches on empire (+50%), and the Evangelism belief (+25%), you could get your missionaries to exactly 2x conversion strength.
The +25% conversion strength in exchange for losing 2 of 3 missionaries means you will have to spread 8 times to break even (4 additional missionaries). The ignore terrain cost means your missionaries will likely suffer less attrition as well.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Good idea, Pineappledan!

If that's too hard to code, an alternative option would be for it to grant two religious buildings and a certain amount of yields (for example, 3 culture) to all temples.

 

[pineappledan]

1 religious building is enough.
Parthenon already gives culture to all of 1 building class on empire (amphitheaters)

INSERT INTO Buildings WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND FreePromotion = 'PROMOTION_BHANAK';

INSERT INTO Buildings WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND GlobalConversionModifier = '25';

UPDATE Building_FreeUnits SET NumUnits = '1' WHERE BuildingType =  BUILDING_BOROBUDUR';

INSERT INTO UnitPromotions
        (Type,              Description,                            Help,                  CannotBeChosen,    Sound,                PortraitIndex,    IconAtlas,            PediaType,        PediaEntry, IgnoreTerrainCost)
VALUES    ('PROMOTION_BHANAK',    'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK',    'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK_HELP',    1,                'AS2D_IF_LEVELUP',    49,                'PROMOTION_ATLAS',     'PEDIA_DIPLO',     'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK', 1);


INSERT INTO UnitPromotions_UnitClasses
        (PromotionType,                 UnitClassType)
VALUES    ('PROMOTION_BHANAK',     'UNITCLASS_MISSIONARY');

Presto!

The UnitPromotions values would have to be changed to suit G's tastes, of course. I'm not aware of a religious PediaType, so I just put it in diplo for now. The Icon used would be another matter. I also didn't write the text

 

[Gazebo]

1 religious building is enough.
Parthenon already gives culture to all of 1 building class on empire (amphitheaters)

INSERT INTO Buildings WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND FreePromotion = 'PROMOTION_BHANAK';

INSERT INTO Buildings WHERE BuildingType = 'BUILDING_BOROBUDUR' AND GlobalConversionModifier = '25';

UPDATE Building_FreeUnits SET NumUnits = '1' WHERE BuildingType =  BUILDING_BOROBUDUR';

INSERT INTO UnitPromotions
        (Type,              Description,                            Help,                  CannotBeChosen,    Sound,                PortraitIndex,    IconAtlas,            PediaType,        PediaEntry, IgnoreTerrainCost)
VALUES    ('PROMOTION_BHANAK',    'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK',    'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK_HELP',    1,                'AS2D_IF_LEVELUP',    49,                'PROMOTION_ATLAS',     'PEDIA_DIPLO',     'TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_BHANAK', 1);


INSERT INTO UnitPromotions_UnitClasses
        (PromotionType,                 UnitClassType)
VALUES    ('PROMOTION_BHANAK',     'UNITCLASS_MISSIONARY');

Presto!

The UnitPromotions values would have to be changed to suit G's tastes, of course. I'm not aware of a religious PediaType, so I just put it in diplo for now. The Icon used would be another matter. I also didn't write the text

Not a bad idea. Let's stew on it.

G

 

[Rekk]

Has anyone ever managed to found with God of the Expanse?

 

[Stalker0]

Has anyone ever managed to found with God of the Expanse?

I've done it on Emperor

 

[Txurce]

Has anyone ever managed to found with God of the Expanse?

Five fast cities and leading with shrines does it often enough to be viable.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I agree with Voremonger, anti-aircraft units are way too strong against non-aircraft units.