ElliotS
Warmonger
Squee at new patch notes at will.
Final Tuning: The "F" stuff
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Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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Let's talk Way of Transcendence/Holy Law. I think they're way more powerful than the rest, which is all the weirder because the AI hates them. They're capable of giving you thousands upon thousands of yields easily, others don't even compare especially after their countless nerfs. Considering there were efforts made in the past to make sure being a Founder is a boon, but not a humongous one, they definitely deserve some nerfy nerfs with some nerfolate. I've modified my game to reduce WoT to 15 per city, HL to 4 Faith/3Gold/2 Science per pop and they're not as nuts anymore, but I'm not even sure if that's enough.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
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Agreed with Enrico. I always pick either WoT or HL. Either other founders need to be buffed or these two need to be nerfed.
I've been playing Holy Law a bit more lately myself, and it does seem pretty strong. I don't have enough experience with Transcendance to know for sure. With WoT you have to be careful in its judgement. Because the bonuses appear so large it can appear quite strong, but also lets not forget that a little bonus much earlier is stronger than a big bonus later, as there is the snowball effect. I don't know if WOT is too strong....but its easy to think its too strong unless we clearly look at the numbers in comparison.
G is there a log that helps records the bonuses for the various religions so we could see how many bonuses we are actually getting from them?
G is there a log that helps records the bonuses for the various religions so we could see how many bonuses we are actually getting from them?
ElliotS
Warmonger
First math:
Holy Law: 4
/
/
- 24 policy, 150 average followers per policy. 43,200 Total Yields.Way of Transcendence: Classic: 4*30*6 - Med: 12*30*6*2 Ren: 18*30*6*3 Ind: 22*30*6*4 Mod: 23*30*6*5 Total: 720+4320+9720+15840+20700 = 51,300 Yields
Ceremonial Burial: 20 city av - 200*2*80 = 32000 Assuming 80 triggers.
Apos Tradition: w/ bobo 250*2*150 = 75000 Assuming average 250
/
and 150 spreads. (So 50 missionaries with bobo.)Council of Elders: 24 Cities = 3600 Yields.
Holy War: 1000*30*2 = 60000 Assuming 1000
/ per city average and 30 cities taken.Way of the Pilgrim: 150*2*150 = 45000 yields assuming 150 spreads with average 10 other followers.
For them to compete:
Divine Inheritance: 10% yields, average 150 turns in golden age, needs average 3000 per turn yields in capital to compete. That doesn't seem likely.
Theocratic Rule: 0.10
/
/ average 180 turns WLTKD, assuming 14 cities needs average 60// per city to compete. That's a bit more likely, but not that much better.Thoughts:
Overall very hard to gauge. I needed to make a LOT of assumptions. I did my best to assume a good situation for each belief, but my math isn't perfect and my intuition might be wrong. I stopped counting after modern because stuff gets really crazy and the game changes a lot.
I rate yield types:
////// FWIW.Holy Law: Good belief, but only
is a top tier yield. Way of Transcendence: Gives all the yields, so some are meh and some are great. Timing of
is the best part. Very good belief that doesn't require a ton of investment.Ceremonial Burial: Gives
, which is good. Really guessed on triggers, but it feels like a good belief in my current game even as authority Zulu. (stole it)Apos Tradition: Requires a lot of investment, but gives great yields if my guesses are at all right.
Council of Elders: This is the worst belief imaginable by far, and I've always felt that way. I don't know why some people swear by it. It felt bad at 10
/ per city and was nerfed for god knows why. I don't care how good the yield type is, it's bad bad bad. Unless I made a mistake in my math. Holy War: Even harder to gauge. The yield types are bad, but you can get a lot of them. The average in early game is like 200
/ per city, but industrial you'll take a 20
city and get 4000 /. Is that good? Paired with Zealotry it feels fine.Way of the Pilgrim: Yields are
/
, which is awesome! Wonders policy needed 1 less per 8 cities is terrible. Requires a lot of investment, but looks pretty good. I would like to see "Wonders policy needed 1 less per 8 cities" improved.Divine Inheritance: Feels too weak. Needs to be buffed to 20% again imo.
Theocratic Rule: Feels a little weak. Especially because it only gets one good yield. Buff to 15% again imo.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Given how much is guesswork I would ask G how AI winrate is going. People are too subjective on this IMO. (Not putting a lot of investment into Way of the Pilgrim makes it awful, so people that don't play that way will find it awful. Kinda like Tradition Zulu or Luga Celts.)
I rate yield types:
I always appreciate someone trying to put math to the question. This is always a question that comes up as far as how much is its yield worth relative to each other?
There is no perfect math there, but as a quick baseline I would go.
1
= 1 = 1 = 1.5 = 1.5 = 2 = 3 Now this so is so far from perfect its not even funny. You can argue faith early is extremely strong. Gold starts out even weaker than this vs production, but with the right combination of events and polices can actually be stronger. Food starts out strong, and imo ends strong, weaker in the middle. But its a ballpark, and tries to make the yields more comparable.
If there is a balance inconsistency, it’s slight.
G
G
ElliotS
Warmonger
Does Council of Elders work well or is it a stinker? I just don't get that one.
Also a slight imbalance is preferable imo. There needs to be a reason to rush for first religion over last.
I'm not really a fan of how spreading your religion to half of the world has become a win condition. I can't really lose when I'm pulling There are many founders, not just these two, which are just so powerful in these kind of circumstances.
Like Council of Elders, its either really bad or strong enough to secure a win single handedly. 400 hammers and science for spreading to a new city state? Yes please. Ceremonial Burial and Glroy of God can become similarly powerful, and it feels kind of silly in my opinion.
Like Council of Elders, its either really bad or strong enough to secure a win single handedly. 400 hammers and science for spreading to a new city state? Yes please. Ceremonial Burial and Glroy of God can become similarly powerful, and it feels kind of silly in my opinion.
Deadstarre
Expert
easy solution, max religion to 5 on standard. I've been doing this for a long long time, i dont know how anyone plays otherwise.
like, i have the only religion on my continent and you expect me to find a way to lose this game? lol =)
phantomaxl1207
King
Council of Elders is really good with Maya.
One suggestion would be to give it a base Yield + a lower scaling Yield (say 8 + 2 per City converted). So it does not feel to weak at first and has some scaling.
One suggestion would be to give it a base Yield + a lower scaling Yield (say 8 + 2 per City converted). So it does not feel to weak at first and has some scaling.
I too find WoT very useful in most of my games, specially tipically not being a prime selection for the AI. Anyway notice that there's an error in description, it's 25 scaling yields, not 30, and in the case of a nerf I think under 20 isn't needed.
Bascule2000
Warlord
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I've had crazy results with the Celts as well. I think you need a lot of faith to make it work, but because of the linear progression you can get crazy results if you manage to convert all the civs who didn't found. There is a downside, all that tech really hurts your unit cap.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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First of all you don't need a good founder to have crazy results as Celts, crazy results are to be expected by playing the Celts. Also every single time CoE was really good for you, Way of Transcendence would've been many times better. Sure, you'd have to wait for the end of the era, but the result would most assuredly be vastly superior in quantity and types of yields. CoE is pretty bad I'd say.
chicorbeef
Emperor
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There are a lot of things that people miss when they try to raw math Civ things.
For example, Council of Elders can be pretty weak game long, but it's one of the strongest early game, and the value of early yields over late yields is pretty debatable. Yes, Way of Transcendence might give you more when you get to the next era, but Council of Elders can get you to the next era and build Classical wonders faster. What if you're playing Spain and want Conquistador's ASAP or something?
Theocratic Rule gives static yields in cities, which means that it often improves happiness. How are you going to factor that into your calculations?
There are synergies with Ceremonial Burial, in that, because it gives Faith, you can purchase more GP, especially with TGOG and get yet more benefits.
I think almost every founder belief is viable, we should ask Gazebo how each AI does on each founder.
The only one I explicitly dislike is Divine Inheritance.
For example, Council of Elders can be pretty weak game long, but it's one of the strongest early game, and the value of early yields over late yields is pretty debatable. Yes, Way of Transcendence might give you more when you get to the next era, but Council of Elders can get you to the next era and build Classical wonders faster. What if you're playing Spain and want Conquistador's ASAP or something?
Theocratic Rule gives static yields in cities, which means that it often improves happiness. How are you going to factor that into your calculations?
There are synergies with Ceremonial Burial, in that, because it gives Faith, you can purchase more GP, especially with TGOG and get yet more benefits.
I think almost every founder belief is viable, we should ask Gazebo how each AI does on each founder.
The only one I explicitly dislike is Divine Inheritance.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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Anyone else tried Borobudur? Contrary to the description, it's meant to only give a bonus spread to the missionaries it's built in. Even if it worked as advertised currently, it's still a waste of Production I find. It just cannot compete. It's too close to good wonders of Renaissance (almost every wonder is good), raises their costs and this is never going to be worth it,
Maybe let's turn it more focused? Still Stupa, +25% pressure of majority in all your cities, +1 Faith and/or some yield for every city where your religion is present. Remove the Missionary stuff or keep it.
Maybe let's turn it more focused? Still Stupa, +25% pressure of majority in all your cities, +1 Faith and/or some yield for every city where your religion is present. Remove the Missionary stuff or keep it.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Maybe make it work correctly (+1 spread everywhere) and give 10 gold per citizen converted when spreading to foreign cities?
Then probably remove the free missionaries.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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By the time Borobudur is up it's renaissance already, a mere 10 Gold is nothing. You gotta conquer and inquisitor what you take beforehand anyway. Another niche, like +pressure everywhere so the AI is forced to spend more to counter your delivish faith, would be better, more annoying and perhaps secure you more yields from founder beliefs.
ElliotS
Warmonger
10 gold per citizen is something like 30-40 per spread and 100 total. Not bad at all when comboed with the spreader founders.
It could easily end up as about 5000 gold within a few eras, which isn't bad at all.
