Finding the Limits of Possibility: A Deity Plus Four Succession Game

[Magic_gorter]

It took me long time to finish due to private life and working on the new gotm-site for civ2 but finally I finished my turns. Here is my log:

preturn 1700 bc changed production of cities as Pr. Garfield mentioned to get more science=>every 13 turns
1 1650 bc -
2 1600 bc Hladir founded / techs every 9 turns
3 1550 bc -
4 1500 bc -
5 1450 bc Spanish start Colossus / we discover Literacy and start with The Republic (tech every 13 turns)
6 1400 bc
7 1350 bc Carthage (Carthaginian) builds Hanging Gardens / Romans switch to Great Wall/ Indians change to Colossus / Trondheim build settler
8 1300 bc Delhi (Indian) builds Colossus / Spanish change to Lighthouse / Trondheim stays in disorder to get size 2 again without food loss / found Aarhus
9 1250 bc -
10 1200 bc Trondheim is working on two different tiles. When disorder is in Aarhus it works on river tile. If no disorder then it works ocean square. Techrate changes a lot (between 9-13 turns). This is caused by 1 or 2 cites in disorder.
11 1150 bc Romans start Great Library
12 1100 bc Spanish abandon Lighthouse and start with Lighthouse
13 1050 bc Rome (Romans) build Great Library / Romans change to Great Wall
14 1000 bc Veii (Romans) build Great Wall
15 975 bc We discover The Republic [/B]and start with Currency (heading to Trade looks like the next path to me)

Next OEDO-year is 925bc. So revolting in 950bc is next option to change to Republic. I did not pop huts to keep techrate low as possible. If should aim for Marco Polo soon as possible to get us back in the race and give us a change winning this game.

Perhaps it's time to change to 10 turns/player after Charlie has played. Soon we will have lots of things to do and then 10 turns is enough.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

We're in a good position. We have republic and lots of places for cities (a whale in the city radius is especially useful at this level). I'm pretty sure we'll be offered trade for the next research, but only if we don't get an off-path tech from a hut.

We may want to hold off on huts until we begin trade; we don't need other techs at the moment, the two huts that are on decent city sites compromize better sites (and the third look like a marginal site), we seem to have an adequate number of units exploring, given we only have to go in one direction at the moment, and we can always do without barbs. Money would be good, but we can wait a few turns for that.

The verdict on popping huts depends on how long it will take to achieve currency once we switch to republic; the longer it will take, the less use there is to wait. We need 105 science for the next tech; I figgure that we can get at least 13 science from our existing cities in republic, which puts the tech-rate at just over 8 turns. Figgure 1 turn of research in despotism, 1 turn of anarchy, and 8 turns to finish off the tech; I think we can put off hut benefits for the next ten turns.

 

[CharlieChuck]

Should be able to play the next few days. I agree that trade should come before hut-popping. We could do with Marco's sooner rather than later.

 

[TheViking]

Nice set of turns. I agree, trade is more important than hut popping (unless AI units that might pop the huts show up).

And I agree that we should switch to 10 turns per player soon - from now on our empire will rapidly get more complicated to run.

BTW I will be away from my computer on a vacation for the next 10 days or so. In the unlikely event that it will be my turn to play someone else can jump in and play - I'd then play once I return.

 

[CharlieChuck]

I decided to stay off huts altogether, I'm a bit worried about barbs being in one. I think 10 turns is a good idea from now on.


-975 return
-950 revolution - explore
-925 Republic, lux at 40% give order in all cities. discov now 7 turns, Kaupang wont be able to support settler in few turns, warrior & horse explore
-900 ..
-875 rehome warrior to hladir,
-850 Madrid buils lighhouse, & switches to oracle, indians start oracle, kaupang settler
-825 ...
-800 ...
-775 Currency -> trade, Trondheim grows to disorder size 3, but will celebrate, science still 7 turns,
-750 Upsala settlers. trond starts celeb
-725 Hladir settlers, trond size 4
-700 cordoba builds oracle, indian abandon oracle, trond size 5 end of celeb
-675 trond settler, Viborg founded,
-650 Indians start Marcos - oops, Roskilde founded, The udal founded
-625 Trade -> Map making

I've ended here, not getting much time to play these days, plus it's a good changeover point. We need marco's, I suggest raising taxes to help rush build vans, the Indians will only need about 100-120? shields to build marco's (it's much less than 200 however many it is). I built the cities a bit further apart than true ICS style, but we have republic now, so a bit of room won't hurt.

Good luck getting Marco's

If anyone gets a chance can they work out where the hidden specials are, I seem to have forgotten the little I learnt from the last game.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Start: Use find city to get rough estimate of locations of other civs.

Romans: not too far south of the unsettled part of our island.
Carthaginians: southeast from us, near the bottom of the map.
Spanish: Some distance southwest of our civ.
Indians: Southeast, revealed map in top left corner of Delhi-centred map.

(0) 625 BC: Taxes to 60%, will try for Marco Polo’s; if lost, will send caravans with diplomats and triremes to foreign civs.

(1) 600 BC: Spend 8 gold in rushes; 29 left. Hut: Elephant.

(2) 575 BC: Rush treasury down to 0 gold.

(3) 550 BC: Rushes down to 9 gold (income 30).

(4) 525 BC: Hut: 50g. Science to 60%. Rushes, treasury at 65g.

(5) 500 BC: Indians nearly complete Marco Polo’s Embassy (we are about six turns from completion). Change plans somewhat, but 4 cities will still build caravans.

(6) 475 BC: Delhi builds Marco Polo’s Embassy. Hut: 25g.

(7) 450 BC: Romans discover Philosophy.

(8) 425 BC: Aarhus dye caravan, begin settler. Kaupang silver caravan, begin diplomat. Map making, begin Banking (in the hope we can trade it for something). Switch The Udal and Roskilde to trireme production. Make an entertainer in Hladir to celebrate when it grows to size 3. Trondheim settlers build Lindholm. Change Trondheim production to Diplomat and rush 10 shields.

(9) 400 BC: Uppsala Wine caravan, begin settler. Adjust Hladir so that it actually will celebrate (worker was placed on wheat).

(10) 375 BC: Viborg settlers, begin diplomat. Hladir silver caravan.

Notes:

Take the Roskilde Trireme (due to be finished in 3 turns), the Trondheim Diplomat (also done in 3 turns) and the Uppsala wine caravan south to find the Romans. Use the “find city” tool to get a general idea of where they are.

Similarly, send a diplomat and silver caravan looking for the Indians, either with a new trireme or the trireme from The Udal (after taking the settler to a new city site).

We will need to stockpile caravans ahead of time for the wonders we want, given that the computer can evidently build wonders very quickly.

The next wonders will probably Sun Tzu’s, King Richard’s and Copernicus’ Observatory. Hopefully the Americans or Japanese will build at least one, so that we can get some idea of where they are. We’ll have to explore soon to find the other nations and trade techs (and hopefully acquire some alliances).

We should probably build a trireme or two for domestic shipping; it saves a lot of time moving settlers.

 

[Bloody Monk]

If anyone gets a chance can they work out where the hidden specials are, I seem to have forgotten the little I learned from the last game.

I think we have four on our little island, both in the 2-4-2 pattern. Kaupang is one (maybe transform after Engineers) & (34, 50); (42,54) & (50,50), above and below Lindholm.

Will try to play this weekend.

Monk

 

[CharlieChuck]

Thanks BM.

The speed of indians getting Marco's surprised me, I knew it would be quick, but 7 turns !! I wonder if they got Trade from a hut? It's not normally something the AI chooses to research.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

If I recal correctly about game mechanics, the computer is periodically given extra shields (I think when it discovers a tech) which accounts for occurrences like battleships on the turn of the discovery of automobile.

This might give a partial explanation of the speed of completion.

 

[Bloody Monk]

Sorry for the delay; I have been enjoying the Pandemic. What fun!! Looking on the bright side, hopefully I won't be forced to take the coming vaccine as I will already have the antibodies. Anyway, still running a fever and feeling shaky so I'll blame my gameplay on the flu.

I wanted to accomplish three things...
--Find the Romans and the Indians
--Celebrate up in size
--Make more Settlers

We need to link up our cities with a roadnet and Irrigate the cities so they can eat. After the infrastructure is built up, then the Setts can make more cities.

Log

0 375 - Set Tron to Celebrate; Hla will grow to 4. Give Aar an Elvis

1 350 - Pick up Vib Sett; give Kau an Elvis; Hla to 5

2 325 - Banking -- > Cre Bur (We need it for Myst on the way to Mono); Hla to 6

3 300 - Reset slider to 80 Lux --> first 5 cities will Celebrate

4 275 - Jorvik; get (H) Cer Bur --> Myst

5 250 - Rush a Lind Dip to join boat

6 225 - Udal boat & Dip add Kau Silver van to look for Japan

7 200 - Meet Romans: (5 clubs) give Banking (good job Prof), Peace, Alliance, Maps, Embassy.

8 175 - Ros & Udal celebrate

9 150 - Meet Indian Camel near Lind: (6 clubs) give Republic, Peace, give Lit, Alliance, Map, trade Bank for Myst --> Phil --> Horse
Upp Wine (d) to Rome = 201g; Rome becomes Republic, ends its Wars with both Japan and America. (They may be to the West of Rome Island)

10 125 - Embassy with India & trade Phil for Polytheism Figure that we can finish HB with Vans. We will need an offpath tech but then Mono will be offered.

Good luck,
Monk

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I think we all wish Bloody Monk a speedy recovery.

About Monotheism and Michaelangelo's Chapel, Mike's is of little or no value at this level, unless we want to go for a communist or fundamentalist government. The reason is that the riot factor is so large that cathedrals can't overcome it; the communist government doesn't suffer from the riot factor, so the cathedrals are quite useful and in fundamentalism they give gold anyway.

Bach's can be useful because of a bug that sometimes turns black hats read instead of turning blue hats red for unit unhappiness, so it is worth getting, though with all the happy citizens in our cities from luxuries, it is not essential.

Monotheism will be a good trading tool, however. The Romans are researching Astronomy, and the Indians already have seafaring, the two prerequisite techs for Navigation. I recomend Magellan's as our next wonder goal, in order to speed the delivery of our caravans.

 

[Bloody Monk]

A Celebrating Fundy Trading Strat would be very powerful. With the cities celebrating, they would get the extra arrow like in Republic. The problem is how to get there. Even though the Chapel would not be very strong, (might change one black to Content), with Markets, Roads, and Trade Routes, we can get by with 40% Lux, I think. This might be necessary to get us to Fundy Gov't.

But, that prescription will take lots of time and cash, too. This will be very sticky as the AI is really going strong with cities, etc.

Monk

 

[Magic_gorter]

I did not yet look at the save game Bloody Monk but wish you a quick recovery...

 

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks fellows for your good wishes.

I have a chronic health problem that leaves me very weak so the flu is not a minor thing for me; but, I will soldier on and surely this too will pass.

Monk

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Even though the Chapel would not be very strong, (might change one black to Content)

Unless we keep our civ very small, I don't think that the chapel will have even that effect.

I'll explain the way things work (to my understanding) with what I will call the "black hat factor." Each city has a black hat factor given by the equation:

D + RF = BH
Where
D is a constant based on the difficulty level,
RF is the riot factor penalty, and
BH is the black hat factor

On the standard difficulty levels, D is a negative number (-1 for deity, -2 for Emperor, etc.) At deity plus 1 it's 0, D+2 is 1, D+3 is 2 and D+4 is 3.

RF is either 0 or positive, and depends on the number of cities you have. The killer is that at deity plus 3 and above, RF increases by 1 for every new city you build, regardless of government (except communism, where RF is always 0).

If BH is negative (only possible in the standard levels), you get default content citizens in your cities. If it is 0, then all citizens are default unhappy.

If BH is positive, there are a couple of possibilities:

If the city population is greater than or equal to BH, then a number of citizens are turned black by default equal to BH, and they are "only" double unhappy.

If there are fewer citizens than BH, all the citizens are turned black, but they will be more than double unhappy. This becomes important if you want to apply "contentment" structures. Before contentment structures can "cure" red hats, the entire "black hat factor" must be overcome. Every specialist and every 2 luxuries reduce the black hat factor by 1, and martial law and contentment structures reduce BF by the number of citizens they make content. In this case, democracy courthouses and Hanging Gardens/Cure for Cancer function as 2 luxuries.

Bach's is useful because in some circumstances, the extra unit unhappiness can be taken from the surplus black hats instead of immediately "targeting" content and happy citizens. Sometimes stationing units out of cities actually makes them celebrate if you have Bach's.

As for the disorder calculation, no matter what the remaining black hat factor, all unhappy citizens are counted only once.

A Celebrating Fundy Trading Strat would be very powerful. With the cities celebrating, they would get the extra arrow like in Republic. The problem is how to get there.

If we want to go the Fundy route, I would suggest going for Statue of Liberty as soon as possible (we can trade the Indians for Engineering, which they are researching). With lots of default black hats, getting half the population happy should be relatively easy (and Fundy does still turn all unhappy citizens content). After that it would be on to explosives and refrigeration to get the food surplusses we would need for speedy growth.

In any case, Mike's is hardly essential to Fundy, it is just very nice to have, and if the Romans or Indians were to build it, it would be relatively easy to "acquire" at a later date. I would expect the statue of Liberty to be a higher priority.

 

[TheViking]

First off, I wish Bloody Monk a smooth and speedy recovery.

Secondly, I'm back from my vacation and should finish playing in a few days - still haven't looked at the game though.

Regarding Mike and Bach they are in my opinion always useful to have. Bach is very nice to have if we want to fight wars as a democracy. If our empire doesn't stay relatively 'compact' communism eventually becomes a better form of government for us than republic.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've built and not built Mike's in various d+3 games that I've played, and have not noticed a difference in city happiness by having the wonder. Bach's is very nice, and I would put considerable effort into acquiring it, but Mike's costs 400 shields at a time where we have to prioritize our wonders, and I think another one would be much more useful.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure Fundamentalism doesn't penalize science from caravan deliveries, so if we plan to use caravans for most of our science, the only benefit of communism over fundamentalism is vet spies. Also, a fundamentalist government would be easier to get celebrating, because it has more default black hats, requiring less luxuries to get half the city happy.

 

[TheViking]

I have now finally taken a detailed look at what happened during my vacation and what the situation is like now and wow - what a change since I played .

I'm still pondering what to do since it looks like I might have some major decisions to make. In the succession games I have played fundamentalism has usually been avoided because it's simply too easy. If we do this communism is a nice 'interim' government until we have the infrastructure and techs necessary to run a democracy.

I agree that we should probably not aim for Mike unless we can easily get it (not likely). Instead we should grab Bach once it becomes available - the AI usually isn't particularly interested in it so getting it shouldn't be a problem.

However, all of this brings up the question of how to prioritize the near to medium term wonders. This is a big map and we need to ship lots of caravans so Magellan is highly useful. And speaking of ships, magnetism should also be a high priority tech to get rid of unhappiness caused by caravels away from our cities.

Leonardo's workshop is useful as well (I just love seeing all of my settlers become engineers). SOL is useful, either for fundamentalism or for communism if we avoid fundamentalism and have a geographically large empire when we discover democracy.

Bach is a 'must have' wonder in my opinion.

Result: Techwise I will probably aim for navigation and invention. It's important to keep in mind that invention is on the same tech path as democracy.

I will probably try to get our allies to gift us something, be it money or techs. We may be able to get lots of stuff from them. Finding more AI civs would be useful but I never use black clicking or 'Find City' to discover AI civs and landmasses so someone else will have to do that unless I accidentally discover some AI civs . Actually it would be a good idea to send a trireme and diplomat to the southwest to meet the AI civ there.

A lot of things I'd like to do but the resources to do so are still severely limited...

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I don't think there is any reason that we shouldn't be able to run a democracy at this level; the black hats ensure that luxuries are potent enough to keep order, if we keep the rate at at least 40%. Moreover, unit unhappiness often turns a black hat red instead of changing happy and content citizens. An example of this phenomenan can be seen by moving the Roskilde elephant out of Trondheim.

We might have an opportunity to scoop an improved city site on the continent west of Rome, if the wars fought there ended up destroying a city. To do so, however, we'll have to act quickly.

 

[TheViking]

We definitely will be able to run a democracy. It's just that I'm not sure we'll be ready to do so the moment we discover it - I think we need Bach and magnetism to run it without problems.