Finland

[Traitorfish]

Hey! I would call it defensive victory If we would had been losted russians would had invaded Finland and they didn't. Thank God for our brave soldiers. I don't even want to imagine our life under Russian fist.

Err... you sided with the Third Reich, didn't you? Not really 'brave', as such... more 'collaberation'. no offence meant, of course.

Scandinavia
- Sweden
- Norway
- Denmark
- Finland
- Iceland

Baltic
- Estonia
- Latvia
- Lithuanian

The Scandinavian countires all have nordic ethinicty and language, while the Finns are completely different in those respects, so they could not really be thougt of as Scandinavian. That said, they're not Slavic either, so they wouldn't really fit in with the other Baltic nations either.

US has been Around for 200 years (That's longer then United Germany has), and the influence of the US has done a major impact on World History wich Finland hasn't.

Well, you're right that Germany as it is now has only existed since 1871, but the Holy Roman Empire, which included almost all of Germany (although, in it's earlier days, not Prussia), was formed over 1,000 years ago, under Charlemagne. Admittedly, the original empire included a lot of France, but by the time of Frederick Barabaross, it was more or less like Germany.

 

[777]

Err... you sided with the Third Reich, didn't you? Not really 'brave', as such... more 'collaberation'. no offence meant, of course.

I think Third Reich assisted us in continual war not in Winter War, can't remember 100% tho.

And our barter with Third Reich was necessary 'cos air support and modern anti-tank guns what gave us saved our days. And of course we had to drive away german forces from Lapland when we declared cease-fire with Soviet Union. So I think our own wars in WW2 was quite a task for us comparing to our military strenght.

 

[Harald]

I saw a documentary about the winter war a couple of days ago and the only assistance the Finns had was only a few voluntary troops from Sweden and Norway. And if you count the dead and wounded it was a defensive victory for the Finns.

 

[Chieftess]

Moderator Action: Suomi, please read your post on the previous page.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

The Finns didn't receive any help from the Germans during the Winter War. They did help seal off Leningrad, though, during the German invasion of the SU, resulting in the death of some 600,000 to 1,000,000 people. Despite of that, they certainly were brave soldiers (like the Germans btw) and altough I certainly blame them for part of the innocent civilians killed in Leningrad, I can also, from an objective point of view, understand where they came from when joining forces with the Axis. Still makes it wrong, though.

 

[Nyvin]

Sweden has gone longer without being conquered then any other country in Europe.

 

[Willowmound]

Sweden has gone longer without being conquered then any other country in Europe.

And...?

As for the Finns and Nazis, Finland sided with Germany because Germany decided to fight Finland's enemy, Russia. "The enemy og my enemy is my friend," and all that. This is of course unfortunate in retrospect, but at the time, if you look at it from their perspective, it makes sense. They weren't fighting alongside Nazis during the Winter War. In '39-'40, Stalin and Hitler were collaborating on invading Poland. Only after the Finns had lost (or "won defensively" as some claim), and after Germany had attacked Russia in 1941, did this Finno-German friendship begin.

 

[Kyriakos]

The way i see it there are only two possible scenarios which include hyperborean euro civs:

1) generic civ called Scandinavia, although Union of Calmar might have been more interesting, but then again it would have no vikings...

2) Sweden, or Denmark, or both (in the final x-pack)

 

[Willowmound]

The way i see it there are only two possible scenarios which include hyperborean euro civs:

1) generic civ called Scandinavia, although Union of Calmar might have been more interesting, but then again it would have no vikings...

2) Sweden, or Denmark, or both (in the final x-pack)

Sweden and Denmark combined but no Norway would just be bizarre. Add Norway and you have Scandinavia, which is what should be in in the first place. And let's face it. People like Vikings. Everyone's heard of Vikings. Who besides yourself and the Scandinavians who paid attention in school have ever heard of the Kalmar Union? Sweden pulled out of that one after a few decades anyway, leaving Norway to rot in the greedy grip of Danish kings. Might as well just have Denmark.

Put in Scandinavia and you make everybody happy!

 

[777]

Thanks, folks. It's allways nice to hear quite accurate history knowledge about our wars, especially when it comes to foreigners.

I can also, from an objective point of view, understand where they came from when joining forces with the Axis. Still makes it wrong, though.

What choice we had? Soviet Union was allied country so we didn't had any choices than barter support with Third Reich. US didn't help us, they couldnt' 'cos they were allied country same as for british etc. ect. etc.

Like somebody allready mentioned Sweden gave us medical support and volunteer troops (those forces I can't recall but it's quite possible). There was of course reason for Swedish help, if SU would had invaded Finland who would have been next target? It's easy to guess. Of course this just quessing but that's how I see it.

We wouldn't have never hook up with Third Reich if Soviet Union wouldn't declare war on us.

Hitler wanted that Finland would join to Axel nations but that time president refused. Hitler would had wanted that finnish forces would assault to Soviet Union at the same time when germany forces invaded Soviet Union. So he would had two frontier advance.

And if somebody didn't se my post at previous page Finland is part of Nordic countries

This is kind of interesting picture; here you can see goof ideas about Great Finland, this idea's golden age was in 1917-1944. It was an idea where all the cousin people should be added to Finland and all the lands what we used to have should be add back to Finland. I think that crazy officers had this kind of images in WW2 but as we know it would have been quite impossible.

EDIT:few typos

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

We wouldn't have never hook up with Third Reich if Soviet Union wouldn't declare war on us.

Look, 777, I already said that I can understand the Finnish decision to join Barbarossa. You do not have to convince me. I think the decision was wrong, but it was also understandable.

The same, however, can be said about the Soviet attacks on Finland after the Germans had invaded. The history of Soviet-Finnish relations was bad and don't forget that German forces were at that time stationed in Finland! It was very reasonable to assume by the Soviet High Command that these troops would be used in the overall invasion. With an all out attack on the country, Soviet military leaders had little room for diplomatic subtleties.

 

[Reno]

This is kind of interesting picture; here you can see goof ideas about Great Finland, this idea's golden age was in 1917-1944. It was an idea where all the cousin people should be added to Finland and all the lands what we used to have should be add back to Finland. I think that crazy officers had this kind of images in WW2 but as we know it would have been quite impossible.

Yes, that was the idiotic "Suur-Suomi" idea, and it sadly has quite large support amongst the Populance back then mostly conservatives. There is even a small Nationalist party of Finland (can't remember the name) that still want's this idea to be put into practise. And yes most of that area is populated by large ammounts of relative Finnish people's. (Ingrians, Estonian's, Karelians, Livonians etc.) Of those only the Estonians are independent.

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

Yes, that was the idiotic "Suur-Suomi" idea, and it sadly has quite large support amongst the Populance back then mostly conservatives. There is even a small Nationalist party of Finland (can't remember the name) that still want's this idea to be put into practise. And yes most of that area is populated by large ammounts of relative Finnish people's. (Ingrians, Estonian's, Karelians, Livonians etc.) Of those only the Estonians are independent.

Karelians have an own autonomous republic within the Russian Federation where their rights are guaranteed. They can freely speak their own language and adher to their own customs. Besides, I like Vyborg way too much to let the Fins have it again...

 

[Reno]

I think the decision was wrong, but it was also understandable.

I'd say the decision was right (We had no alternatives), if you've seen in what shape Estonia and the rest of the Eastern European countries under Soviet rule from 1945-1989 are. Then you'd agree. A large ammount of the Finnish populance would have been moved to Siberia and all openly none communist political enenies of Russia executed as traitors. And the Estonian economy is in shambles.

 

[Reno]

Karelians have an own autonomous republic within the Russian Federation where their rights are guaranteed. They can freely speak their own language and adher to their own customs.

But Karelian is not thought in school's nor as it's written language, eventually Karelian language will die to Exthinction. And will be Replaced with Russian.

Although this discussion is getting way too Off Topic.

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

I'd say the decision was right (We had no alternatives), if you've seen in what shape Estonia and the rest of the Eastern European countries under Soviet rule from 1945-1989 are. Then you'd agree. A large ammount of the Finnish populance would have been moved to Siberia and all openly none communist political enenies of Russia executed as traitors. And the Estonian economy is in shambles.

I wasn't talking about Finland defending itself... I was talking about Finland joining up with the Nazis in attacking the Soviet Union and in the process aiding in the starvation of a city of 3 million souls. By joining up, you guys had to fight for survival in 1944 all over again. Nothing changed by joining, only countless people died necessarily.

 

[Reno]

I was talking about Finland joining up with the Nazis in attacking the Soviet Union

It's really naive to think that we would have been left alive after Germany would have been defeated, the Soviet's would probably had comed after us next.

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

But Karelian is not thought in school's nor as it's written language, eventually Karelian language will die to Exthinction. And will be Replaced with Russian.

Article 26 of the Russian Constitution:

"Everyone shall have the right to determine and state his national identity. No one can be forced to determine and state his national identity. Everyone shall have the right to use his native language, freely choose the language of communication, education, training and creative work."

If they want to teach in Karelian, get a school to do that. The state isn't obliged to offer education in the local language.

Although this discussion is getting way too Off Topic.

Agree.

 

[Pyotr Veliky]

It's really naive to think that we would have been left alive after Germany would have been defeated, the Soviet's would probably had comed after us next.

Like they did in 1944, right...

 

[Reno]

Like they did in 1944, right...

But that was after we had beaten Russia at Tali-Ihantala, wich btw costed the Russians plenty of troops.

Stalin even toasted the Finnish soldiers bravery after the war.

Anyway, this is getting too Off Topic now.