Firaxis - How many is sufficient???

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

OK, now I've really had it , and I want to know:

How many units does it take to keep a city from flipping????

See this game: the city was captured the turn before, now it quit resistance and I rushed Barracks.

Here's a World Map to go with it. I had to fight down Russia on my island, while America enjoyed peace and all. Level is Monarch.

yellow arrow: the flipping city
green arrow: American Capital

OK, the Americans have way more culture than I have, Ok, it is close to their capital, but the if that city flips, it means the game makes it impossible to win from a sucky starting position. How many more troops does it take to quell that one sucker??????? I mean, i bring in half my military power, enough to take the city (it had two defending Spearmen) three times over - and it flips, takeing the army with it!

I have 9 units in it, 8 if you do not count the army, but only the units in it, and even if the entire army counts as 1 I have 6 units for 1 citizen!!!!


Firaxis: this sucks! This is extra punishment for those who are in the sh*tter already, and I never see AI cities flip like that. Honestly, the worst flip to me i ever saw was a weeakly defended city that was far from my capital and close to the enemies, but the culutre ratio was 5:1.

So what is 'sufficient' here??????

 

[Qitai]

You are blue, aren't you. Last I read, you need
(#foriegn citizen + # of those 20-tiles not control by you)
amount of units to prevent a flip. In your case, that is 11.

I hate the second part of the formula (the part on tiles).

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Oh man this is ridiculous! Thanx Quitai!

 

[murewa]

am i seeing double or do i see swordsmen with 8HPs? custom rules? or is it just the pic (2bars=1life)?

 

[D9phoenix]

no he plays with custom rules.

 

[murewa]

i would have chosen to rush the temple instead. at least it decreases chances of flipping.

 

[Baron Scot]

i cant believe i missed the 55 point life bars he has there.

if you increase it further, does it overlap the commerse bar, and eventually the map? now thats some serious funny

 

[Myartar]

No, if the HP bar has enough max HP, when you lose HP, there is no decrease on the bar. It never get's bigger than a certian size, and that's pretty close to it in the screen shot.

 

[Zouave]

I guess we all know by now what I've said for seven months - Culture Flipping as a concept, and as implemented in the game mechanics, was and is BRAINDEAD ON ARRIVAL.

It is non-historical, ridiculous, and crazy.

Someone with an IQ of 70 could have done a better job than this.

Soren, take your "culture" and. . .

One thing is certain - FIRAXIS WILL NOT FIX THIS, and that is why I will buy nothing in the future from Firaxis.

 

[sumthinelse]

Even if the city flips, you should at least get your troops back. They could just get kicked out to one of the tiles in the city radius. Maybe Firaxis could make culture flipping configurable (like other contraversial game features) in a patch.

 

[Portuguese]

So many armies needed makes a cool concept too usual. It should be very rare.
Idea was good, but Firaxis screw it.

 

[Ezekyel]

Killer: I hate culture flipping and I hate when thats happen to me, but to make you feel better (may be),,, just look on the population of the city, 10.000 people, you have 9 units on it, lets say maybe 900 soldiers (?), so the city next to there capital, recently conquered, 10.000 rebels, 6000 discounting children and old men,,,, may be 6000 against 900 soldiers, far away from there mother country, inside the city radius, unable to manouver , fighting in the streets, may be I say may be, they can be defeated.
It is just an idea I thought to understand why culture flipping.
Comments?

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Qitai
You are blue, aren't you. Last I read, you need
(#foriegn citizen + # of those 20-tiles not control by you)
amount of units to prevent a flip. In your case, that is 11.

I hate the second part of the formula (the part on tiles).

Oh, let me add. . .

You've just stormed into an enemy town which now is reduced to a '1'.

In the above case we then need ELEVEN MILITARY UNITS to prevent it from flipping and making the garrison vanish into the air. And that STOPS an invasion cold - or forces you to raze the town. (Razing towns isn't as nutty as razing cities). Yes, Ethnic Cleansing.

This is absurd. A tiny population like that would be afraid to pee with that many troops as a garrison - but even ten, according to those stats, would not intimidate them and stop a flip. And where does the garrison go? Did a town with a '1' kill them all?

Culture Flipping is a phony, arbitrary contrivance dreamed up by someone with no historical knowledge at Firaxis. It makes a mockery of itself.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Ezekyel
Killer: I hate culture flipping and I hate when thats happen to me, but to make you feel better (may be),,, just look on the population of the city, 10.000 people, you have 9 units on it, lets say maybe 900 soldiers (?), so the city next to there capital, recently conquered, 10.000 rebels, 6000 discounting children and old men,,,, may be 6000 against 900 soldiers, far away from there mother country, inside the city radius, unable to manouver , fighting in the streets, may be I say may be, they can be defeated.
It is just an idea I thought to understand why culture flipping.
Comments?

If a unit in Civ3 is 100 people, how comes an attack by a bomber squadron (8 planes?) doesn't kill them all????

Aside from that, take the Roman legions as an example. One Centuria (100 men) were sufficient to utterly destroy any small settlement. How are villages represented in Civ3? By size 1 towns. So the 10,000 means nothing. But even if we stay with the number: 1 Army of Swordsmen - let's call this a Roman legion. nominal strength 6000 men. i have an army and additional units. Give me 200 armed, trained fighters against 10,000 civilians - they'll kill them all! So it would be OK for the town to go down in flames, but no, the garrison just dissappears.....

but thanx for the kind words...

 

[sumthinelse]

What I don't understand about the game design: It's designed to make you fight wars. I don't think I know how to win on deity without a war. The AI wouldn't let you play a peaceful game even if you tried to. The only reasonable way to build the forbidden palace is with a leader, which you can't get by fighting barbarians.

And yet we have so many "anti-war" design features: war weariness, flipping (which is not a bad idea IMO, but the way it works ), corruption.....

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I also think a well planned and well executed war, as mine here, should be a chance to make up for a bad start, but NO, youz get kicked down by a ridiculously random event

 

[Reboot]

Seeing the thread as it is, I thought I'll post something I said over at another forum:

"...Here's the "trap" that the game sets up for players, I think:

1. Random maps have uneven strategic resource distribution. As the result, players often end up with territory with some strategic resources, but seldom all of them.

2. Since later units need strategic resources, players must get their hands on these resources to upgrade their military and stay "in the race".

3. However, because the AI trades unfairly, players often have to resort to war to get those strategic resources.

4. Unfortunately, warfare in CivIII is heavily discouraged with all sorts of rules and improved defense modifiers (leading to spearmen killing tanks).

5. In the end, the player is fustrated because:
- he/she is forced to go to war
- he/she cannot win the war, or even contain it from becoming a World War.
- he/she cannot advance his/her game position because of a missing resource.

The game becomes hard to enjoy. I've played too many maps that ended with me unifying one continent... only to find out many turns later that there's no Oil, Coal, Rubber, etc. on the whole continent..."

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Reboot, this is my experience, too, and the reason why my games nbever go into modern times. i simply go for Domiation before I need Rubber

Also, this game, I was 6 tech behind, far behind in territory size (America is weak, I am weakest) but with a successfull conquest I would have stood a chance. And what more can you do than bring 5 Galley full of top-notch (for me) troops????? And get a leader on taking the city?

Even if I'd rush a temple - it would never have been finished, after all that was the first turn it could flip! And I did try reloading and doing diplostuff to change the result. Seems I rolled another 1 on a 1024 sided dice

 

[DrJambo]

moan moan moan...

you can hardly expect to take a city right next door to the American capital, miles away from yours and with them having greater culture and not expect problems...! I mean come on. Why didn't you go for one of their penisular cities or even just raze Philadelphia?

Qitai's formula (if it's correct) states you needed 11 units, so unluckily you are 2 short. Anyway i hear they're going to change the number of units you need to prevent culture flipping in the next patch.

i hardly ever get affected by culture flipping and if i do it's mostly to my advantage, but then i'd rarely do something like this...!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
If a unit in Civ3 is 100 people, how comes an attack by a bomber squadron (8 planes?) doesn't kill them all????

Because they scatter and hide.

Aside from that, take the Roman legions as an example. One Centuria (100 men) were sufficient to utterly destroy any small settlement. How are villages represented in Civ3? By size 1 towns. So the 10,000 means nothing. But even if we stay with the number: 1 Army of Swordsmen - let's call this a Roman legion. nominal strength 6000 men. i have an army and additional units. Give me 200 armed, trained fighters against 10,000 civilians - they'll kill them all! So it would be OK for the town to go down in flames, but no, the garrison just dissappears.....

You can burn the town down, or disband it. However, in the example you posted, it is like being in the Teutenborg Forest. You are in hostile country and surrounded by very hostile native people. As there is no fortifications in that town, you would be better off forting on a nearby hill.

Ask Augustus how he could lose three legions in Teutenborg. For the rest of his life he would mutter, "Firaxis! I want my legionary eagles back."