Firaxis - How many is sufficient???

[ChrisWade]

I've never minded culture flipping in the past as I normally make more gains than loses. In my current game (regent huge pangea 16 civs (9 left)) I am currently attacking Russia. I took Minsk which was on the border between myself (Babylon) and Russia. I guarded the city with 2 armies (4x elite modern armour in each) and 4 other modern armour. What happens a couple of turns later, the city flips. Now I would normally expect this, but with 12 units (14 if you include the armies) I thought it was a bit over the top. I wasn't annoyed at losing the city, cause I could retake it, it was the fact that I lost all those troops in 1 go without a fight.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

=DOCTOR= the number of units it takes is ridiculous for the ma size. Period! And it is also ridiculous so soon after the conquest. Most of the people there sholuld be to scared to act up, after all it's wartime!

Zachriel, Der Teutobruger Wald is avery very poor example I'm afraid! That was three legions on the march, in a forest (Wald = forest!!!!!), fought down my militray in guerilla style.
Here, we talk a town (defence bonus!), civilians, and foritified units in it! So what I'm saying is that if the folks in the town dare to resist or revolt, they'd die! Otherwise, they may run away. in both cases i can understand the town being disbanded and my units taking damage, but not this!

It is something totally different if this takes place in a large town in peacetime. Then, fighting down a huge crowd is far harder, and the decision to do so comes a lot harder. So CF makes a lot more sense in peacetime, but not such a ****ing small heap of dung that has just been invaded by a huge army!

btw: for this map size, 3 units / citizens + 1 extra sounds fair to me. So you'd need 4 for size 1, 7 for size 2, 10 for size 3.......

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.

Here, we talk a town (defence bonus!), civilians, and foritified units in it! So what I'm saying is that if the folks in the town dare to resist or revolt, they'd die! Otherwise, they may run away. in both cases i can understand the town being disbanded and my units taking damage, but not this!

There is no defensive bonus in small towns. You are in the open without fortifications. The surrounding tiles represent more people than are in the town, and more infiltrating from other areas.

Hey! Play it anyway you want. It's your game.
(But it doesn't seem to be working well for you. You just need to be aware of the danger, rather than ignore it. It's the same problem as in the Teutenborg forest, the inability to sense imminent danger.)

 

[The Pioneer]

I like the concept of culture flipping actually but I do disagree with the black or white way that was implemented in the game.

Me thinks following could be implemented:

There should be somekind of fightas the city tries to flip back.
Some units would be eliminated some would escape hurt and some unhurt.
Some citizens/improvements would be eliminated/damaged.

On the other side I do understand Lt. Killer M., I once had a similar situation with a city which I was ultimately forced to disband in order no to lose my forces.

I am not going to go into histaorical parallels to cultural flipping as the game is just a game and not supposed to simulate real life or history perfectly.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Zachriel, there is a definite bonus for units in a village, if it isn't in the game, well the game sucks. But this in not about combat, this is about the idea that some porr, hungry peasants walk up to a victoirious, fortified army and tell them: Go disband, we don't want you anymore yeah right!

fact is: I AM aware, very aware, I juast never thought it would need 11 (!) units on that map size for one idiot. And it is Teutobruger Wanl or forset if you want.... And Varus (not Augustus! - he would never have been so dumb!!!) was warned again and again, and officially he was in friendly territory... as I said, in peace it's defferent, but here it's war!

 

[Maple]

Don't you just love Firaxis? Culture Flipping should only be availible in the game if you specify that a cultural win is possible.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.


And Varus (not Augustus! - he would never have been so dumb!!!) was warned again and again, and officially he was in friendly territory... as I said, in peace it's defferent, but here it's war!

You've been warned time and again. Officially you were in friendly territory, but the reality was far different. Your commander made a mistake. And you, Augustus Killer must live with that.


Lord Augustus each time bawling
As he fetched his head a crack,
"Varus, Varus, general Varus,
Give me my three eagles back!"

Lord Augustus tore his bedclothes,
Blankets, sheet and counterpane.
"Varus, Varus, General Varus,
Give my Regiments back again!"

Six gold bits a man he left us
For to buy us pork and beans,
For to buy us cheese and craknels
In the german dry canteens.

God Augustus walks in Heaven,
ghost Marcellus swims in Styx,
Julia's dead and gone to join him-
Thats the end of Julia's tricks.

But our Eagles still are straying
And by shame and sorrow stirred
To the tomb of god Augustus
We'll bring back each wandering bird.

 

[murewa]

how can 10,000 people kill 900 soldiers:

1. Burn the soldiers inside their barracks.
2. Poison them. Expecially the water,wine,beer,etc... (even a few dozen semi-organized people can do this)
3. Uhh... you're soldiers got tired of the fighting and decided to turn in their swords for plowshares.
4. A storm hit. There are no weather forecasts in CivIII so you'll never know.
5. The Enterprise D felt pity for the american people and beamed up all your soldiers. Heck, they could be in cryostasis right now...

Murphy's Laws
a. If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway.
b. The Enterprise D theory? If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which something can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way, unprepared for, will promptly develop.
c. If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
d. And as for the storm thingy - Mother nature is a Bi*ch.

then again why prove my statements with Murphy's Laws. The only Murphy I've seen is Robocop. and he isn't even real. END!

 

[cracker]

Killer,

Two things:

First, I agree with you that culture flipping can be frustrating, but it is part of the game so we have to develop strategies to deal with it. Your strategy here (combined with the magnitude of some of the mod changes you have implemented) makes this one of those situations where you may have actually created your own nightmare. The weak cultural power in your civ does not let you attack into the core of another civ and then ignore the need to rush cultural improvements to make up for lost ground.

Second, you appear to have modded the game into "screwed up neverneverland". 8 and 11 hit points for units from the ancient age is ridiculous. Transporting Armies in Galleys is also not a part of the intended process for the game. (If you were lucky enough to get the leader in the attack on this city I apologize for assuming that this was part of some screwy mod package as well.)

Your city view shows the year to be 2430BC, probably on an archipeligo type map, and yet there is an enemy pikeman in the upper right indicating that the enemy is already in the middle ages several hundred years before this should be physically possible. American is probably in Monarch/Republic while you are still mired in despot. Typical Monarch values give the AI a 10% cost advantage, but your mod values combine to create suspect conditions that point The size of you start island appears to be too small to support legitimate starting positions for you and Russia unless you have modified those game conditions as well.

There is not enough information provided here for us to tell what should really be going on, but attacking a civ that has pikemen fortified in cities when all you have is swordsmen ferried by galleys is doomed to failure.

Perhaps the game is just using culture flipping to put you out of your misery a little bit earlier.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Maple
Don't you just love Firaxis? Culture Flipping should only be availible in the game if you specify that a cultural win is possible.

I agree that there should be a way to adjust or stop flipping, if only for the purposes of building scenarios.

 

[alpha wolf 64]

I dont mind flipping altho I think it needs a few tweaks.

1. an army automatically prevents flipping. The existence of an army inplies more than just military units. It means intelligence, military police, etc so that a rebellion isnt likely to happen.

2. a conquered city cannot flip for the first 4 turns. I generally hate hard and fast rules, but the conquering civ deserves at least a chance to build some culture. i've had a few cities flip the next turn.

I'm currently involved in a 2-front cultural war. On the west are the Indians/Japanese/Germans who are fighting a savage war. As towns are conquered, its freeing up some strategic locations that I settle into. On the East are the Iroquois/Russians. The Russians and I are carving up the Iroquois and my policy is to raze cities so that my military spearhead doesn’t stall. I then rush the slaves to the newly formed western cities to give them an immediate population boost. Some of my low production/high population core cities also pump out settlers and workers that are used to balance out the population of the new cities so that they are about 50% me, 50% foreign. I then rush build a temple and then a library. Combined with a high national culture, I’ve had a few cities flip to me. The eastern front will be the most interesting. The Russians and I established a natural border across a river. They have a combination of old cities and new cities while I have an equal number of cities, mine are all newly formed, but already between 6-10 pop since I had some Chinese workers left over from their extinction. I’m waging a strictly cultural war because I’ve been trailing a Russian stack of over 40 cossacks that I’m not ready to fight yet as I’m involved to exterminating the Japanese in the west.

 

[Dearmad]

I like flipping. It causes me to be more cautious and thoughtful in an invasion. Also to build cultural improvements. C'mon PEOPLE the original postera dmited America had MUCH more culture than he... it's like Philedelphia being conquered by a bunch of Canadians, it's gonna FLIP back to USA! -er- maybe a bad example, but you get my drift.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Couple of points:

A size 1 town does indeed represent a small town. Villages, in the sense of concentrated agricultural communities, are presumeably represented by the Irrigation terrain improvement. (Whatever Irrigation represents, one has to hope it's not necessarily actual irrigation, which'd make little sense on temperate grasslands.)

The people behind the Civ games have carefully avoided specifying what amount of troops a military unit represents. Quite possibly the number varies from unit to unit. But certainly a Legionary must represent more than a single centuria - otherwise late ancient armies would be ridiculously small. I tend to think of each Legionary unit as representing an entire legion. Modern land units can perhaps be thought of as representing regiments.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Dearmad: yes they have way more culture - but no city EVER flipped from the Genghis Khan! They were to afraid!!!!! And i mean, look at the number of units, then look at the time and the size of the two civs! As I said, I'd get 4 units, or 7 for size 2, maybe even more if in peace or after some turns go by and I don't build culture, but 8 being insufficient right away?????

"Ah, non Monsigneur, would you please disband your Panzers, Paris n'aime pas les Allemands, non mercí, we go back to La France!"

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Maple
Don't you just love Firaxis? Culture Flipping should only be availible in the game if you specify that a cultural win is possible.

Actually I do love Firaxis, they have given me a game I have played non stop three to four times a week in the evenings since the release last fall. That is pretty good value.

But, your idea is outstanding regarding turning flips on and off with the culture win condition.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Couple of points:A size 1 town does indeed represent a small town.

Yes. My small town consists of an intersection, a gas station and a post office -- and, oh yeah -- a sign.

I tend to think of each Legionary unit as representing an entire legion. Modern land units can perhaps be thought of as representing regiments.

I have had several dozen legion units in Civ3, not to mention catapults and spearmen. Rome never had near that many Legions. Unit size is highly abstracted and varies from era to era, but I would think cohort size might apply in this instance.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX


Actually I do love Firaxis, they have given me a game I have played non stop three to four times a week in the evenings since the release last fall. That is pretty good value.

But, your idea is outstanding regarding turning flips on and off with the culture win condition.

Make it so, #1.

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by Maple
Don't you just love Firaxis? Culture Flipping should only be availible in the game if you specify that a cultural win is possible.

That would be really a great idea!!!

 

[Zouave]

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Originally posted by Maple
Don't you just love Firaxis? Culture Flipping should only be availible in the game if you specify that a cultural win is possible.
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That would be really a great idea!!!



DAMN STRAIGHT!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Dearmad: yes they have way more culture - but no city EVER flipped from the Genghis Khan! They were to afraid!!!!! And i mean, look at the number of units, then look at the time and the size of the two civs! As I said, I'd get 4 units, or 7 for size 2, maybe even more if in peace or after some turns go by and I don't build culture, but 8 being insufficient right away?????

"Ah, non Monsigneur, would you please disband your Panzers, Paris n'aime pas les Allemands, non mercí, we go back to La France!"

Both the Panzer Blitz and Mongol Hordes took a lot of territory fast. They left garrisons, but the army kept moving. So, most cities never had overlapping cultures with the enemy, and the armies didn't stay in towns without overwhelming numbers.

If the town was size one and isolated, then it only takes a small garrison. But if the town is just a crossroads between large populations of the enemy, then it is not safe. Period.

Sense the danger.