Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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Well Zachriel, how much time did i have to start moving on, eh????? This is what sucks! Give me say five turns, then it's OK, but just after a conquest..... no way!!!!!!!
Firaxis - How many is sufficient???
- Thread starter Lt. 'Killer' M.
- Start date
Zachriel
Kaiser
Consider your army, Killer. Let's say you intended to carry the war forward as soon as your units were healed. Yet, even if you conquered all that territory, who would have garrisoned all the captured towns? If you weren't going to carry the war forward, well then you need a very large garrison to hold that town. Every good ol' boy from Washington to Chicago will stream on down with their pitchforks and torches to kick some Hessians back to Hessen-Kassel. Yee Haw!
Eleven is the number of resisters. I would recommend 20 units in this case due to the proximity of the enemy capital. Or easier still, just park on the hill outside town so you are in a defensible position. The town is only meaningful as a crossroads.
Eleven is the number of resisters. I would recommend 20 units in this case due to the proximity of the enemy capital. Or easier still, just park on the hill outside town so you are in a defensible position. The town is only meaningful as a crossroads.
Zachriel
Kaiser
I am all for a better, or more intuitive game mechanic, however it is playable as it is. The trick is to remember that there are actually 11 resisters in this position. I think the general strategy may be at fault. You probably needed to capture towns closer to your capital first. Capturing and holding towns in the middle of enemy territory can be very difficult.
PS. I know it hurts. It's happened to me, too. But I learned.
Zouave
Crusader
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I sensed the stupidity of Flipping in November.
The Mongols often got cities to surrender, and in effect beg for mercy, before any attacks. But Flipping DUE TO MILITARY STRENGTH and the terror tactics of such as the Mongols is not in the game. It should be. BTW, Mongol "culture" was much lower than any civ they conquered.
The Mongols often did NOT leave large garrisons as the people of the city knew that ANY resistance would be met with total extermination. In Civ 3 large garrisons vanish without even knocking off a population point, and the stupid citizens in Civ 3 are always entirely oblivious to huge armies just several tiles away ready to exterminate them if they revolt.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
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Zach, I want that town taken, then move out and cut the iron. Meantime, need one turn in unattackable position to heal troops and form army. but I never get there! If the town would vanish, no problem. If it flips two turns later, no problem. but like this it sucks and I AM SICK OF YOUR EXPLAINATIONS!!!!!! This is NOT ABOUT MILITARY LOGIC AND ALL AS YOU CLAIM IN YOUR POSTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no insult intended, I just can't hear it anymore! You're off on a tangent here that doesn't address the problem!
There is no fighting, there is no sufficient population to make the town change, all there is is proximity to the capital! The tile rule is OK if you talk long term influence during peace, but hey, i just cut down half the pop in that town when taking it! Minutes ago, so to speak!
It sucks, as you well know, this is Monarch level and the ****ing game doesn't make it so you can still win by being smart, it makes it so that WHATEVER YOU DO YOU GET **** ON!!!!!!
Look at the map, and I can post the save if you want, how should I bring 15 units (have to expect losses after all!) in that situation! And ahve you ever seen an enemy beachhead with lots of troops in it flip to you??? Right away???? Honestly??????? Post a save???????
That is my final opinion on the matter.
no insult intended, I just can't hear it anymore! You're off on a tangent here that doesn't address the problem!
There is no fighting, there is no sufficient population to make the town change, all there is is proximity to the capital! The tile rule is OK if you talk long term influence during peace, but hey, i just cut down half the pop in that town when taking it! Minutes ago, so to speak!
It sucks, as you well know, this is Monarch level and the ****ing game doesn't make it so you can still win by being smart, it makes it so that WHATEVER YOU DO YOU GET **** ON!!!!!!
Look at the map, and I can post the save if you want, how should I bring 15 units (have to expect losses after all!) in that situation! And ahve you ever seen an enemy beachhead with lots of troops in it flip to you??? Right away???? Honestly??????? Post a save???????
That is my final opinion on the matter.
Qitai
.
Just to be more precise and correction to what I posted.
You actually need
(F+T)*2*Culture Ratio amount of troops.
So, it is more then 11. Ridiculously high actually.
No matter what, build that temple/library first on all newly captured towns.
You actually need
(F+T)*2*Culture Ratio amount of troops.
So, it is more then 11. Ridiculously high actually.
No matter what, build that temple/library first on all newly captured towns.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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Thanx Quitai!
But how should i build it? take town, next turn rush it - FLIP! before it's completed!
But how should i build it? take town, next turn rush it - FLIP! before it's completed!
Qitai
.
Rush it on the same turn. Rush a worker. Switch production to temple, rush again. This way, there is no need to wait a turn.
Qitai
.
Also, if bad luck really happen and if you have no problem with reloading against such bad luck. Try giving some gifts to some AI before ending the turn, that usually change the RNG which could results in no flip.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
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couldn't, 1 resistor! 
I always get one at the least, but I often see the AI rush rioght away, whatever the culutre rate and origin of people is... once had a size 11 town taken, rushed down to 5, then it grew to 6, I take it back and get 1 resistor!!!!! MY TOWN ALL ALONG!!!!!!
I always get one at the least, but I often see the AI rush rioght away, whatever the culutre rate and origin of people is... once had a size 11 town taken, rushed down to 5, then it grew to 6, I take it back and get 1 resistor!!!!! MY TOWN ALL ALONG!!!!!!Qitai
.
Hmm... that is tough then. I guess you do need to buck up your culture slightly. Can't let it slip too much. I think that affects resistor as well.
The formula for CF should be reviewed I think.
The formula for CF should be reviewed I think.
sumthinelse
civ investigator
The British did lose some armies to the rebels in the American Revolution, but not as in civ3. In Saratoga and Yorktown they were defeated by Continental military forces, not by a bunch of civilians. I think what you are saying is that these resentful civilians are actually forming invisible militia units. Even if I imagine that, I still don't think the way the game works is reasonable, but if culture flipping made visible militia units which could fight the invading armies (instead of having a stack of units disappear suddenly) I think that would be more acceptable to most "warmonger" type players. I count myself among the "warmongers."
Catt
Emperor
Ive read through the thread with interest. I wont try to defend or condemn culture flipping based on whether or not the concept is rooted in reality or not others here are far more knowledgeable than I am on military history (as well as history in general). I will say that although I often find the historical discussions very interesting, the entire game is an abstraction, and is obviously not designed to simulate reality. Im surprised that the following little snippet from the chat back in June didnt start a flame war between the those arguing gameplay and those arguing reality.
Take that for what it's worth (but don't stop the historical arguments - very entertaining and educational
).
Ill also say that Killers experience is about the most frustrating example of a flip Ive seen, and exceeds (but not by much
) some of my most painful flip episodes. Its pretty clear from Killers posts that he was counting on the success of this offensive to turn a perceived losing game into a potentially winning game and that the untimely flip apparently dashed those hopes.
However, I think Killer (and others who read through this thread) are missing a golden learning opportunity.
In fact, this campaign, though perhaps brilliantly conceived, was not well executed. If the safety of an expeditionary force is critical to meeting the objectives of a particular campaign, it is pure negligence to garrison such force in a captured enemy city unless one knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the force (even after a presumed counter-attack) is sufficient to negate a potential culture flip. Where such an expeditionary force is sent against an enemy with way more culture, to a location close to [the enemys] capital and seeks to conquer a city that will be almost entirely hemmed in by the enemys cultural borders, garrisoning all but a token troop at the most is a grievous error in judgment. Why in the world risk the entire campaign (indeed the entire game if this game was subsequently abandoned) in order to heal troops a bit faster? Why, even if the calculated chance of a flip is very, very low?
A better tactical decision would have been to leave Philadelphia entirely undefended (except for the victorious swordsman who advanced upon victory) and either fortify the remaining units in the adjacent tile from which they attacked, or, depending on the remaining forces, their health, and the movement points remaining, moving them all (or most) to the hill northeast of the city. The fortuitous appearance of a leader should prevent the razing of the city (so an army may be built), but immediately after building and then moving the army to the designated defense tile, the city could either be abandoned or left with its one swordsman garrison. In this manner, the expeditionary force is not risked on a roll of the die, and a catastrophic culture flip is reduced to a minor annoyance at worst.
While the frustration at the mechanics of flipping may be both real and painful, it shouldnt obscure the lessons to be learned from the unfortunate fiasco.
Take that for what it's worth (but don't stop the historical arguments - very entertaining and educational
).Ill also say that Killers experience is about the most frustrating example of a flip Ive seen, and exceeds (but not by much
) some of my most painful flip episodes. Its pretty clear from Killers posts that he was counting on the success of this offensive to turn a perceived losing game into a potentially winning game and that the untimely flip apparently dashed those hopes.However, I think Killer (and others who read through this thread) are missing a golden learning opportunity.
In fact, this campaign, though perhaps brilliantly conceived, was not well executed. If the safety of an expeditionary force is critical to meeting the objectives of a particular campaign, it is pure negligence to garrison such force in a captured enemy city unless one knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the force (even after a presumed counter-attack) is sufficient to negate a potential culture flip. Where such an expeditionary force is sent against an enemy with way more culture, to a location close to [the enemys] capital and seeks to conquer a city that will be almost entirely hemmed in by the enemys cultural borders, garrisoning all but a token troop at the most is a grievous error in judgment. Why in the world risk the entire campaign (indeed the entire game if this game was subsequently abandoned) in order to heal troops a bit faster? Why, even if the calculated chance of a flip is very, very low?
A better tactical decision would have been to leave Philadelphia entirely undefended (except for the victorious swordsman who advanced upon victory) and either fortify the remaining units in the adjacent tile from which they attacked, or, depending on the remaining forces, their health, and the movement points remaining, moving them all (or most) to the hill northeast of the city. The fortuitous appearance of a leader should prevent the razing of the city (so an army may be built), but immediately after building and then moving the army to the designated defense tile, the city could either be abandoned or left with its one swordsman garrison. In this manner, the expeditionary force is not risked on a roll of the die, and a catastrophic culture flip is reduced to a minor annoyance at worst.
While the frustration at the mechanics of flipping may be both real and painful, it shouldnt obscure the lessons to be learned from the unfortunate fiasco.
bd2000
Chieftain
Hie guys,
I have a few comments :
- to Qitai : since 1.21f, the number of troops needed is (F+T) (your formula was right before),
- an advice : turn the foreigner to a specialist as it seems (I made a few tries with it) that the specialist is never accounted as a foreigner,
- a last point : the army unit is NOT taken in account as a military unit (it is the same for MP) so you have EIGHT units here. I think the offensive value of the unit must be greater than one.
IMHO it is a good idea to turn ALL the citizens in a newly conquered city to specialists to starve the "resistants" and to decrease the culture flipping factor. We need some comment from Firaxis about it but - I think - this trick is working...
There are a few other way to get rid of those foreigners by building (or even rushing to kill as many as quickly as possible, this whip is such a nice motivation tool ;-) ) workers or settlers. Then you can ask the newly created unit to "join" your city (they will get your nationalitie, some kind of immigration office ;-) )
In any case, there is a random factor so, Killer, take it as you were unlucky...
I have a few comments :
- to Qitai : since 1.21f, the number of troops needed is (F+T) (your formula was right before),
- an advice : turn the foreigner to a specialist as it seems (I made a few tries with it) that the specialist is never accounted as a foreigner,
- a last point : the army unit is NOT taken in account as a military unit (it is the same for MP) so you have EIGHT units here. I think the offensive value of the unit must be greater than one.
IMHO it is a good idea to turn ALL the citizens in a newly conquered city to specialists to starve the "resistants" and to decrease the culture flipping factor. We need some comment from Firaxis about it but - I think - this trick is working...
There are a few other way to get rid of those foreigners by building (or even rushing to kill as many as quickly as possible, this whip is such a nice motivation tool ;-) ) workers or settlers. Then you can ask the newly created unit to "join" your city (they will get your nationalitie, some kind of immigration office ;-) )
In any case, there is a random factor so, Killer, take it as you were unlucky...
bd2000
Chieftain
I meant greater than 0.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
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Catt: very good point, I was sure it wouldn't flip!!! I had a settler on the boat, i just wanted to heal my troops 1 turn, and I did need to keep the city to form the Army! I got the leader on taking it!
Then, I planneed to leave 2 units in it to draw a counterattack, then retake it and raze it and build a new city with the settler.
I was absolutely sure 8 was enough for 1 guy!!!!!! That's my entire gripe here: you need an absurd amount of troops for that 1 pop! I was expecting the number to be 5 (after all, that would be 50 units for a size 10 town), so i threw in 3 more!
@ Zachriel: to clarify: I did NOT in any way want to insult or anger you. i just think you are beside the point, as sumthinelse explained it, too. he is a lot better with words than I am. Please don't get me wrong here - I like reading your historical comments, I got angry because you persistently ingored my point.
Then, I planneed to leave 2 units in it to draw a counterattack, then retake it and raze it and build a new city with the settler.
I was absolutely sure 8 was enough for 1 guy!!!!!! That's my entire gripe here: you need an absurd amount of troops for that 1 pop! I was expecting the number to be 5 (after all, that would be 50 units for a size 10 town), so i threw in 3 more!
@ Zachriel: to clarify: I did NOT in any way want to insult or anger you. i just think you are beside the point, as sumthinelse explained it, too. he is a lot better with words than I am. Please don't get me wrong here - I like reading your historical comments, I got angry because you persistently ingored my point.
Zachriel
Kaiser
You didn't insult me, though you were speaking rather loudly.
(I admit I may have been over the top with the "Lord Augustus each time bawling" quote. 
) I do understand your pain, having been there before, but I did answer your question -- at least I thought so. 20 IMHO.
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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Zach: you are one of the guys who always try to link the game to reality - and i like that! But i do think you leaned rather far out of the window on this one - and it would be a pity if you fell out - we need you here
Yes, 20 is sufficient, but that is totally inacceptable on that map size and in that age. As i said_ longterm that number may even be low, but right from the start???????? I guess i will simply start to do the same a swith combat: take three times the force needed for 95% success probability - and this makes the game tedious
Yes, 20 is sufficient, but that is totally inacceptable on that map size and in that age. As i said_ longterm that number may even be low, but right from the start???????? I guess i will simply start to do the same a swith combat: take three times the force needed for 95% success probability - and this makes the game tedious
Zachriel
Kaiser
I agree. I usually imagine British soldiers in the jungles of Africa, with war drums in the distance and a complete ignorance of what awaits them. Or I think of a bunch of drunk soldiers being overrun when they least expect it. Or their barracks burned at night, ammo exploding, while the partisans escape in the dark.
Many players just can't "see" the partisans. They should be made visible. . . . I miss the partisans from Civ3.
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