[GS] Firaxis Livestream - Māori - December 6

[Giskler]

Having a feature where seawater inundates coastal tiles due to "rising sea levels" does not require each tile having an elevation. I think it's much more likely that its a function of adjacency to coast/ocean.

Each tile having an elevation is necessary since rising sea levels means a tile that was previously 6 meters above sea level will only be 3 meters above after a rise of 3 meters and so on. If all the ice in the world melted, the sea levels would rise about 70 meters.

 

[Ziad]

They were all in the Carthaginian "empire" and sphere of influence -- but they are still Phoenician cities, and so is Carthage.

I'm not criticising the city list itself, I just think it's strange that they gave all those cities to "Carthage" and then made Byblos, Tyre and Sidon into separate city-states.

As a Lebanese person with an unhealthy personal investment in this, I have always considered Carthage to be an extension of Canaanite history so it never really bothered me.

Would they make the capital of Phoenicia "Carthage" so they start out in North Africa instead of the Levant on TSL Earth maps?

Frankly if this civilization were indeed Phoenicia, as a fellow TSL player I would be far more interested in starting in the Levant and then just colonizing North Africa with the challenge being not falling to the enemies that surround us!

 

[Siptah]

Frankly if this civilization were indeed Phoenicia, as a fellow TSL player I would be far more interested in starting in the Levant and then just colonizing North Africa with the challenge being not falling to all the enemies that surround us!

I'm hoping for a Mediterranean TSL map anyway (including the Middle East) in which the Levant would be bigger. It would be the only TSL map that I would consider playing.

 

[Ziad]

I'm hoping for a Mediterranean TSL map anyway (including the Middle East). It would be the only TSL map that I would consider playing.

It would be a missed opportunity if there weren't.

Can maybe ask one of the TSL modders to make one too.

 

[Krajzen]

Yeah, the main downside of Phoenicia replacing Carthage is its TSL location.

Especially if we won't get Morocco this time - there will be nobody in North Africa. To be honest I think Morocco/Moors/Berbers/Maghreb should be a mainstay in civ series, it's so cool, characteristic, culturally rich and historically important part of the world, and it would broaden Islamic representation in civ, which usually tends to consist only of Arabia, Ottomans and Mali/Songhai.

Goddamnit, they even have a potential powerful female leader (although I forgot her name). Do you hear me Firaxis? We could frustrate "anti sjw" crowd even more, with Muslim woman this time...

 

[Disgustipated]

nobody in North Africa

Cleopatra and Saladin disagree with you. Is Nubia also considered North Africa?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Problem with TSL should never limit possible choices of Civilization by dev team.

 

[agonistes]

Having a feature where seawater inundates coastal tiles due to "rising sea levels" does not require each tile having an elevation. I think it's much more likely that its a function of adjacency to coast/ocean.

Pretty sure that is the purpose of the elevation stat, if u watch the vid. The climate change page tells you how high sea level is getting, and Ed was pretty precise (for him) in stating the devs want you to know the possible ecological dangers of where you are settling. So the elevation stat, combined with how the sea level rise will work, indicates which tiles are going to drown first.

 

[Leyrann]

We could frustrate "anti sjw" crowd even more, with Muslim woman this time...

Impressive strawman.

Most people who are anti-SJW just think that we should view reality as it is, and not make it appear nicer in the name of diversity. Because, fun fact, the truth is that men were very dominant in powerful positions in the past, as there was no equality. Is it good that there was no equality? No. Is it true that there was no equality? Yes.

If there's a good female leader, I'm all for including her (and I really like inclusions like Jadwiga, Tamar, etc who really were great leaders), but I don't think it makes sense to stretch to extremes like Gorgo or Catherine De Medici who never actually ruled just to diversify your cast.

So, regarding that muslim woman: I don't know who you're talking about (I'm not a history expert, plus I don't have a name to search for ), but if she actually ruled, and ruled well? YES, definitely include her. Was she just a figurehead*, or the wife of a ruler? Then NO, don't include her.

*I know that Victoria was mostly a figurehead as well, but at least she got an era named after her.

 

[Krajzen]

Problem with TSL should never limit possible choices of Civilization by dev team.

To be honest I agree I'm mainly looking from the perspective of popular TSL map scripts in this case - TSL Earth, but especially TSL Europe. TSL Europe will be slightly ruined if there is neither Carthago nor Morocco to populate Maghreb. Oh well, there are always mod civs.

Impressive strawman. (...) If there's a good female leader, I'm all for including her (and I really like inclusions like Jadwiga, Tamar, etc who really were great leaders), but I don't think it makes sense to stretch to extremes like Gorgo or Catherine De Medici who never actually ruled just to diversify your cast.

In this case I also generally agree (de Medici is ridiculous choice for France, though still not as bad as Maria of Portugal in civ5 ).
However, on youtube - where almost every First Look video gets 2-5% dislike ratio - First Look Nubia got 25% dislike ratio, with all critical comments being about its leader being obese black woman! Go on, see them and tell me they are not madness. This is genuinely the only concern of those people: that there is a civ with fat, black woman as a leader and that means firaxis makes "leftist propaganda". Also, a ton of those comments suddenly turned out racist and suggesting Subsaharan Africa never had any civilisations.
The same kind of people would be offended by the existence of female Muslim leader.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I don't think that tile elevation means that we can raise or lower terrain like in SMAC. I think it is simply a way for the game to calculate if a land tile will become a sea tile when the "sea rises" event is triggered. So the game assigns a tile elevation number to each tile on the map based on the geography. When the "sea rises" X meters, the game looks at if the sea is not above the tile elevation, if yes, it becomes a sea tile if no, it remains a land tile although perhaps with some negative modifier to yields. At least that is how I am understand the game mechanic based on what we've seen so far in the live streams.

 

[Disgustipated]

I agree that raising land tiles seems unlikely, but those cities at sea are sitting on something. I hope they aren't saying a city that size is floating. There has to be some land reclamation going on.

 

[Ziad]

Yeah, the main downside of Phoenicia replacing Carthage is its TSL location.

Especially if we won't get Morocco this time - there will be nobody in North Africa. .

I don't see the issue here.

Why can't North Africa be the location that is colonized by the various powers of the Mediterranean? Isn't that what actually happened in reality too?

You had Egypt which pushed left.
Greeks which settled Libya and parts of Africa.
Carthage is directly a Phoenician colony that grew into its own.
Iberians/Vandals.
The whole European Imperialist push.

I agree that the Berbers would be a cool addition.

Still I don't think the TSL location is really an issue here, especially TSL Europe. As Phoenicia you'd just settle North Africa while also maintaining power back in the Levant while surrounded by Egypt, Nubia, Arabia, Sumeria, Persia, Georgia, and Greece.

That's far more interesting to me than just having a massive expanse to fill under no threat whatsoever.

On that note, I think Mali could be added to the modded TSL Europe.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I agree that raising land tiles seems unlikely, but those cities at sea are sitting on something. I hope they aren't saying a city that size is floating. There has to be some land reclamation going on.

The Seasteads appear to be artificial islands not unlike these ones in Dubai:

 

[thecrazyscot]

I don't think that tile elevation means that we can raise or lower terrain like in SMAC. I think it is simply a way for the game to calculate if a land tile will become a sea tile when the "sea rises" event is triggered. So the game assigns a tile elevation number to each tile on the map based on the geography. When the "sea rises" X meters, the game looks at if the sea is not above the tile elevation, if yes, it becomes a sea tile if no, it remains a land tile although perhaps with some negative modifier to yields. At least that is how I am understand the game mechanic based on what we've seen so far in the live streams.

I hope this means that if there's a low lying inland area that's blocked from the sea by a higher elevation that if the sea breaches the higher elevation it also floods the lower elevations behind it.

I suspect they might feel that's too extreme though. But I hope not. That would be really cool.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To be honest I agree I'm mainly looking from the perspective of popular TSL map scripts in this case - TSL Earth, but especially TSL Europe. TSL Europe will be slightly ruined if there is neither Carthago nor Morocco to populate Maghreb. Oh well, there are always mod civs.

I agree that the Berbers would be a cool addition.

Still I don't think the TSL location is really an issue here, especially TSL Europe. As Phoenicia you'd just settle North Africa while also maintaining power back in the Levant while surrounded by Egypt, Nubia, Arabia, Sumeria, Persia, Georgia, and Greece.

That's far more interesting to me than just having a massive expanse to fill under no threat whatsoever.

On that note, I think Mali could be added to the modded TSL Europe.

Well at least they added Fez, though as a city-state to the region. There is still always the possibility of Carthage being Dido's capital, and therefore may start in North Africa, but I'm leaning more towards it being Tyre.
There was also the possibility that she might get a water start as well, like the Maori, so in that instance you could always go to North Africa on a TSL map if you would wish.
And yes, I would support the Berbers. a.k.a. Numidia would be a cool addition.
Not sure if Mali would even be able to make it on a TSL Europe, though at least it's close enough to North Africa and can colonize on TSL Earth map.

 

[Leyrann]

In this case I also generally agree (de Medici is ridiculous choice for France, though still not as bad as Maria of Portugal in civ5 ).
However, on youtube - where almost every First Look video gets 2-5% dislike ratio - First Look Nubia got 25% dislike ratio, with all critical comments being about its leader being obese black woman! Go on, see them and tell me they are not madness. This is genuinely the only concern of those people: that there is a civ with fat, black woman as a leader and that means firaxis makes "leftist propaganda". Also, a ton of those comments suddenly turned out racist and suggesting Subsaharan Africa never had any civilisations.
The same kind of people would be offended by the existence of female Muslim leader.

People that can only be described by terms not allowed on this site aren't worth paying attention to anyway...

But I consider myself anti-SJW, hence the reaction.

 

[thecrazyscot]

For my CFC Christmas gift I would like the cancerous SJW vs anti-SJW discussions to disappear. No disrespect meant towards those discussing topics where these terms come up, but the SJW/anti-SJW labels always end up being thrown around as insults in the end, which harms good, productive discussion.

 

[agonistes]

I don't see the issue here.

Why can't North Africa be the location that is colonized by the various powers of the Mediterranean? Isn't that what actually happened in reality too?

You had Egypt which pushed left.
Greeks which settled Libya and parts of Africa.
Carthage is directly a Phoenician colony that grew into its own.
Iberians/Vandals.
The whole European Imperialist push.

I agree that the Berbers would be a cool addition.

Still I don't think the TSL location is really an issue here, especially TSL Europe. As Phoenicia you'd just settle North Africa while also maintaining power back in the Levant while surrounded by Egypt, Nubia, Arabia, Sumeria, Persia, Georgia, and Greece.

That's far more interesting to me than just having a massive expanse to fill under no threat whatsoever.

On that note, I think Mali could be added to the modded TSL Europe.

The issue is how busy that area is already. Its worse than Europe. If you dont TCS the city-states (shame on you if you don't), you lose about 6 by turn 40 on marathon ++. Then you have Arabia, Georgia, Egypt, Gilgabro, and Persia.

 

[Zaarin]

Why can't North Africa be the location that is colonized by the various powers of the Mediterranean? Isn't that what actually happened in reality too?

You had Egypt which pushed left.
Greeks which settled Libya and parts of Africa.
Carthage is directly a Phoenician colony that grew into its own.
Iberians/Vandals.
The whole European Imperialist push.

Well, the Berbers have been in North Africa for a very, very long time, certainly since before the game begins. Egypt didn't colonize to the west; it was clustered along the Nile. The Greeks and Phoenicians did colonize North Africa, but the Iberians did not. The Vandals rampaged through North Africa but didn't colonize it; they were either absorbed into the Puno-Berber-Roman population or pushed back to Iberia where they formed the Visigothic kingdoms that would eventually become Spain and Portugal. But North Africa is a great spot to colonize on a real Earth map (at least the one from YnAMP): I've seen it colonized from Spain, Egypt, Italy, the Levant, and even the Balkans, and I myself colonized it from South America once (and yes, this was post-R&F). (I don't generally play TSL, so the civs doing the colonizing may not be the ones you expect from those locations...). In my last game Norway started in Morocco and consequently went the other way, colonizing Spain--but they didn't get much of a foothold because Western Europe was dominated by Poland, who started in the Alsace-Lorraine region.

The issue is how busy that area is already. Its worse than Europe. If you dont TCS the city-states (shame on you if you don't), you lose about 6 by turn 40 on marathon ++. Then you have Arabia, Georgia, Egypt, Gilgabro, and Persia.

That's not an issue if you don't play TSL...As someone stated above, TSL shouldn't be a factor for not including a civ. The Middle East should be as overcrowded as Europe; I'm rather annoyed at how undercrowded it is at the moment.