First few tries on Monarch. Damn it is hard.
- Thread starter Killroyan
- Start date
cleverhandle! very nice summary of the problem.First, thx for all the advice guys. Didn't know about the worker yet that they start with that too. That explains some headstarts the AI has. I already noticed the archer at start too.
So my next game as Mansa Munsa and more concentrating on all the faults I made. Capital had a good site. Second city with some more food resources and horses. Third city hooked the copper up and my fourth city got iron. So far so good. Resources = CHECK.
Skirmisher are some of the best early defensive units in the game so I used them for city defense (duh) and fog busters on hills to keep the barbs out. Succeeded in that pretty well. Posted a skirmisher on a hill next to a barb city on a hill and let him gather exp. No more barb intrusion = CHECK.
Buildaholic tendencies. Only build stonehenge so far for the border expansions. Only build necessary buildings and concentrated on an army. I guess my appointment with wonderholics 101 (hy my name is Roy and I like to build too many world wonders. Clap clap clap) went well. CHECK.
So far so good, but then I still made two mistakes.
1. NOT CONCENTRATING ENOUGH ON MILITARY
Although I was producing non stop axemen/swordsmen and the occasional spearman/skirmisher for my SOD I was still 7th in place. All my cities needed about 3 turns to complete a unit. I had a good stack of doom (about 20 units) and attacked Toku when I saw how lightly he was defended. Took him down to 1 city but got stuck on his capital and forgot to research catapults!!! Stupid me. STUPID STUPID ME
Even when I was outnumbering him 2,5:1 with axemen and swordsmen I was not able to take the city (all city raiders 
) The cultural defense was just too good. I started pillaging everything in sight but then my second mistake became clear.....
2. KNOW THY ENEMIES
I though I had sufficient military power but my assault on the capital made me drop in power so psycho Montezuma declared war on me even though I gave him some resources and even gave him the gold he demanded. My land got flooded with horse archers and axemen. And as always in those situation they all demolished my city defenses without problems. Even my spearmen were eaten by horse archers. Grmblll, bad luck I guess. In one round I lost 2 skirmisher, 2 spearmen and 2 axemen to his 2 horse archers and 1 axeman. Lost the second city in the next 3 rounds so it was game over. Toku is by the way very reluctant to give away any techs. He refused to give me any during the whole war. So I have a lot to learn about the personalities yet.
Biggest chance so far is that I have to plan way more ahead about what I am going to do then on prince. I am a bit of a lazy player I guess. Well no more if I want to beat this.
So my next game as Mansa Munsa and more concentrating on all the faults I made. Capital had a good site. Second city with some more food resources and horses. Third city hooked the copper up and my fourth city got iron. So far so good. Resources = CHECK.
Skirmisher are some of the best early defensive units in the game so I used them for city defense (duh) and fog busters on hills to keep the barbs out. Succeeded in that pretty well. Posted a skirmisher on a hill next to a barb city on a hill and let him gather exp. No more barb intrusion = CHECK.
Buildaholic tendencies. Only build stonehenge so far for the border expansions. Only build necessary buildings and concentrated on an army. I guess my appointment with wonderholics 101 (hy my name is Roy and I like to build too many world wonders. Clap clap clap) went well. CHECK.
So far so good, but then I still made two mistakes.
1. NOT CONCENTRATING ENOUGH ON MILITARY
Although I was producing non stop axemen/swordsmen and the occasional spearman/skirmisher for my SOD I was still 7th in place. All my cities needed about 3 turns to complete a unit. I had a good stack of doom (about 20 units) and attacked Toku when I saw how lightly he was defended. Took him down to 1 city but got stuck on his capital and forgot to research catapults!!! Stupid me. STUPID STUPID ME
Even when I was outnumbering him 2,5:1 with axemen and swordsmen I was not able to take the city (all city raiders ) The cultural defense was just too good. I started pillaging everything in sight but then my second mistake became clear.....2. KNOW THY ENEMIES
I though I had sufficient military power but my assault on the capital made me drop in power so psycho Montezuma declared war on me even though I gave him some resources and even gave him the gold he demanded. My land got flooded with horse archers and axemen. And as always in those situation they all demolished my city defenses without problems. Even my spearmen were eaten by horse archers. Grmblll, bad luck I guess. In one round I lost 2 skirmisher, 2 spearmen and 2 axemen to his 2 horse archers and 1 axeman. Lost the second city in the next 3 rounds so it was game over. Toku is by the way very reluctant to give away any techs. He refused to give me any during the whole war. So I have a lot to learn about the personalities yet.
Biggest chance so far is that I have to plan way more ahead about what I am going to do then on prince. I am a bit of a lazy player I guess. Well no more if I want to beat this.
good try, nonetheless
monte around = primary target
did you whip all you could?
it's just not normal that tokugawa should have anything but a few archers in his cities when you storm in.
2 possibilities:
- not early enough for the rush (not enough whipping)
- too distant opponent (bad target)
And what cleverhandle said is true. In an early assault you won't be able to get more than 2 cities (not including barb cities). So you want to attack when the AI has only 2 cities
ANd don't worry about extortion of techs. In fact you shouldn't have alphabet yet. If you have, you waited too long for the assault.
Any way, 4 cities built = no early rush.
If you have time to build 4 cities, the monarch AI will have 5/6 cities. No way to just storm through.
So we're back 2 options :
1- early war against a 2 city Civ
2- not so early war to conquer 2 more cities.
If it's option 2, you don't want to fight toku. He never trades techs (well, almost never), and i never could extort anything but gold or map from him.
For learning sake i would try the same game (you saved at some point, didn't you?) with either option 1 or option 2 vs Montezuma.
Tokugawa isn't a total psycho but he will backstab you if you drop on power, so don't drop low on power!
monte around = primary target
did you whip all you could?
it's just not normal that tokugawa should have anything but a few archers in his cities when you storm in.
2 possibilities:
- not early enough for the rush (not enough whipping)
- too distant opponent (bad target)
And what cleverhandle said is true. In an early assault you won't be able to get more than 2 cities (not including barb cities). So you want to attack when the AI has only 2 cities
ANd don't worry about extortion of techs. In fact you shouldn't have alphabet yet. If you have, you waited too long for the assault.
Any way, 4 cities built = no early rush.
If you have time to build 4 cities, the monarch AI will have 5/6 cities. No way to just storm through.
So we're back 2 options :
1- early war against a 2 city Civ
2- not so early war to conquer 2 more cities.
If it's option 2, you don't want to fight toku. He never trades techs (well, almost never), and i never could extort anything but gold or map from him.
For learning sake i would try the same game (you saved at some point, didn't you?) with either option 1 or option 2 vs Montezuma.
Tokugawa isn't a total psycho but he will backstab you if you drop on power, so don't drop low on power!
Toku had about 5 cities when I attacked and I had 4 also. I took the first two with ease, the third one was in the jungle and it took me a while to get there. Alphabet got online in that period. City number 4 fell pretty fast after that. Then I though I could take out Toku completely because his capital was amazing with 3 sea food and 3 gems!!!! I could not resist to try. Well tried and failed.
To my shame I have to say I didn't save the game at some point (oops) so I can't try it again against Monty. But the lesson is that I should have stopped when I took his first two good cities. They had good resources and I had crippled Toku enough. After that I should have concentrated more on Monty.
And apparantly a good strat is build two production cities, hook up copper, churn out axes with the occasional whip (I am still an amateur whipper but I am getting better) and take over at least one opponent. Check. Keep the advices coming. I am learning a lot.
To my shame I have to say I didn't save the game at some point (oops) so I can't try it again against Monty. But the lesson is that I should have stopped when I took his first two good cities. They had good resources and I had crippled Toku enough. After that I should have concentrated more on Monty.
And apparantly a good strat is build two production cities, hook up copper, churn out axes with the occasional whip (I am still an amateur whipper but I am getting better) and take over at least one opponent. Check. Keep the advices coming. I am learning a lot.
I'd have to say one thing that would help tremendously is to post a saved game at the point you figure you are finished, I'm but a mere prince lvl player so doubt i could help, but I've seen it happen so often that seeing specific problems helps out more than slightly ambiguous ones. By the way, good luck on Monarch hopefully i'll be joining you there in a couple more weeks! Then you can help me!
As for your last attempt, it sounds like you pushed the Tokugawa campaign further than was good for you. I would argue that in the early game it is always better to cripple two neighbours than to kill one entirely while the other one grows stronger.
In your example, Tokugawa had 5 cities, you had 4. Taking two of his cities would have been enough - at 3 to 6 cities he would have been no threat to you for centuries to come, and your army could have successfully hobbled your other neighbour as well, leaving you free to continue either war later, as the dominant power among the three of you.
Also, I think you need to keep a better eye on your diplomatic relations and avoid having to fight two or more enemies at once. Open borders, ressource trades and staying neutral on religion all help to reduce the likelyhood of surprise attacks.
J.
Edit: Changed #s
In your example, Tokugawa had 5 cities, you had 4. Taking two of his cities would have been enough - at 3 to 6 cities he would have been no threat to you for centuries to come, and your army could have successfully hobbled your other neighbour as well, leaving you free to continue either war later, as the dominant power among the three of you.
Also, I think you need to keep a better eye on your diplomatic relations and avoid having to fight two or more enemies at once. Open borders, ressource trades and staying neutral on religion all help to reduce the likelyhood of surprise attacks.
J.
Edit: Changed #s
Eqqman
Walrus
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
- Messages
- 342
Killroyan said:
You haven't mentioned the specifics of these battles, but I'm guessing that you may have attacked in unfavorable conditions. For instance, maybe the Axeman had moved onto a hill resource to pillage it and you rushed out to attack him, so he gets the hilltop defense bonus while your men have no bonus (aside from the Axeman's advantage against melee), especially if you've been giving your troops City Raider promotions. If you can survive the loss of the pillaged resource for a few turns you're often better off letting the AI pillage it and then killing off his men in attacks on your cities. You'll often have more advantages being in a defensive situation even if you're not hiding behind hilltop walls. Maybe you could have gotten some of your troops in forest/jungle behind a river before he reached a city. Immediate attacks at less than high odds is a mistake I make all too frequently when I get panicky about killing off my opponent as fast as possible.
Edit: What people consider to be 'good' odds is going to vary. When you're finding a value that's comfortable to you, I'd suggest looking at it not as 'what are the chances that I'll make it' but 'what are the chances the AI will make it'. 75% seems decent, but that means that the AI has 25%, a 1-in-4 shot which is low but not that low.
This was a fight where about 6 horse archers and 3 axemen attacked my city. The city had 40% cultural defense. I thought let them come I can have them. But this time the comp was incredible lucky and the extra combat promotion of Monte helped him a lot apparantly (axes with shock, combat III horse archers, etc...).
And Jorunkun, you are right. I should have stopped at the two cities with Toku. They were superb cities which I didn't raze. But when I saw that capital I got really greedy. Who wouldn't a huge city with 3 seafood and 3 gems.
This game is just too good. The AI gives you a real challenge and I like it.
And Jorunkun, you are right. I should have stopped at the two cities with Toku. They were superb cities which I didn't raze. But when I saw that capital I got really greedy. Who wouldn't a huge city with 3 seafood and 3 gems.
This game is just too good. The AI gives you a real challenge and I like it.
JoeM
Imperator
Hi,
I'm trying the strategy Heeringas has put forward; to some success so far.
Playing my first Monarch game, standard settings as Huayna of the Incans.
Three cities; my second was to get copper, third to get marble. Then found Iron by my capital (doh) which is set in flood plain which should be good for slaving.
Not building wonders.
I've just taken Bismarcks closest city without losing a unit. My stack is three swordsmen, two axemen. I haven't seen the rest of his empire yet, so I don't know what I've let myself in for
Contact with two other Civs, one Barbarian city near my capital.
I'm trying the strategy Heeringas has put forward; to some success so far.
Playing my first Monarch game, standard settings as Huayna of the Incans.
Three cities; my second was to get copper, third to get marble. Then found Iron by my capital (doh) which is set in flood plain which should be good for slaving.
Not building wonders.
I've just taken Bismarcks closest city without losing a unit. My stack is three swordsmen, two axemen. I haven't seen the rest of his empire yet, so I don't know what I've let myself in for
Contact with two other Civs, one Barbarian city near my capital.
JoeM said:Hi,
I'm trying the strategy Heeringas has put forward; to some success so far.
Playing my first Monarch game, standard settings as Huayna of the Incans.
Three cities; my second was to get copper, third to get marble. Then found Iron by my capital (doh) which is set in flood plain which should be good for slaving.
Not building wonders.
I've just taken Bismarcks closest city without losing a unit. My stack is three swordsmen, two axemen. I haven't seen the rest of his empire yet, so I don't know what I've let myself in for
Contact with two other Civs, one Barbarian city near my capital.
better work on the reinforcements!
JoeM
Imperator
Hope this isn't taken as thread jacking;
Well I settled for peace with Bismarck at 500 AD. Time flies quickly in this game, so I'm a thousand years behind the advice from Heeringas but I can't honestly see how I could have done it any quicker.
Just building courthouses to get my costs down, I'm second place out of four as I haven't seen the other three yet. I've go nine or so cities, and I'm ahead in Tech but not by much.
What now?
Well I settled for peace with Bismarck at 500 AD. Time flies quickly in this game, so I'm a thousand years behind the advice from Heeringas but I can't honestly see how I could have done it any quicker.
Just building courthouses to get my costs down, I'm second place out of four as I haven't seen the other three yet. I've go nine or so cities, and I'm ahead in Tech but not by much.
What now?
JoeM
Imperator
Mad Professor
Deity
Killroyan said:
I too have recently started playing on Monarch. GOTM8 was my first Monarch win (space race). I've since achieved a cultural win at Monarch playing Elizabeth. I've also had some disasters which didn't last very long. I was also winning regularly on Prince.
The biggest difference I've discovered is that mistakes or slackness count more. At Monarch I'm finding it necessary to watch my cities, my economy, the other civs, etc., all that much more carefully. On Prince I could do some cruising, have some slack periods, but I've found out a couple of times that a slack period when I'm playing Monarch may result in death.
I guess too that any step up in level will be difficult at first, but hopefully get easier as you learn more.
Mad Professor
Deity
Eggolas said:
You're talking about my last effort on Monarch there Eggolas. 
I got going nicely, but with modest military - enough I thought. I bordered Alex though and though he was pleased with me, he attacked me - and with hoardes. I 'd been watching the power graph alright, and watching Alex way up there edspite not being near me in tech. I thought I was OK. But then came the hoardes. He hit me with long lists of swords, Horse archers and cats and though I had maces, I didn't have enough of them. I killed lots of his units, but numbers got to me, and I started going down - then he must have bribed Bismarck to attack me as well, and that was the beginning of the end.I learnt.
Mad Professor
Deity
Just a note of thanks, guys. I just picked up some really nice tips as someone struggling to adjust to Monarch.
JoeM said:
it is thread jacking, and i don't know if the OP sees any interest in it, but a few thoughts.
1) Read a few Sun-Tzu's lines! You know nothing about your continent/your opponent(s)! Intelligence is the only (correct) way
- to choose a target : was germany the best one to pick? why?
- to adopt a strategy : does germany have metals? where? horses? where? wonders? where?
- to know when to sue for peace = seeing you can't finish him off with the troops you have and reinforcements aren't ready yet/need 10+ turns to come.
How do you decide without any exploration! If you had no open borders (quite usual), you still can send a scout/a chariot/ a stack into enemy territory to learn those things. Better to at least explore your continent as much as possible while building up the army. You only know one city of the mongols too
You won't see the keshiks coming. It's a serious warning here! Mongols will flood you with keshiks at some point. ANd if i read well the map, this point may be very close.Without map intelligence, you'll need to get informations through the info screens and diplomacy. When you sued for peace with Freddy, did you check how much cities he had? You see a list of the cities in the dialog. Add one (the capitol he can't trade) and you at least know how many cities you have to take (razing is an option now! don't burden yourself with far away lowly cities).
2) how are you doing techwise? do you have CoL? I assume yes, since you were going to build courthouses. Do you know alphabet? Do you know currency? If you know none of those 2, you can't extort anything
If you're going to take the cities 2 by 2, you may as well get some free money to feed your research, or some free techs.
JoeM
Imperator
I've relocated to here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177423
and copied caberts post in.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=177423
and copied caberts post in.
I don't mind other players coming in here and talking about their tries at Monarch, especially if it revolves about their mistakes and downfalls or ways to succes. It is all about the strategies. I won't be able to play for a couple of days. So if other ones can post interesting stories then I am all ear.
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