First Three Social Policies

[snarzberry]

When I'm considering making an excursion into honour to help with some heavy duty warfare I often catch myself and think 'do you need it?'.

Like, am I going to get to the end of this war and think 'you know, those three honour policies were nice, but totally superfluous? I'd have won the war comfortably without those policies and now think of what I've missed out on.'

I've found myself thinking like that on a number of occasions and so now I'll only take honour policies if I really think I'm at serious risk of failing without them.

 

[MadDjinn]

My SP pursuits and starts are highly situational.

I will say that in a very particular instance I have found the honor tree's 1.5xp to be hugely helpful.

Play on an Archi map and going for a domination victory I have found rushing the upgrades on your boats so that you get x2 attacks per turn is the game turner. I was behind on King/Archi and Emperor/Archi with Elizabeth and x2 attacks per turn ships allowed me to harass the leader to the the point of crippling them. Bombarding just doesn't quite pack the potent punch it needs to with x1 attacks. Getting x2 attacks and x1 or x2 range = good game, thanks for coming.

I think x2 attack ships is the most important key to success in a domination archi game, therefore honor becomes very valid for me in that situation. I haven't found another situation in which I find it viable though.

Also, playing standard, low sea level, archi map, I don't think I have ever found a city I couldn't bombard.

When I'm considering making an excursion into honour to help with some heavy duty warfare I often catch myself and think 'do you need it?'.

Like, am I going to get to the end of this war and think 'you know, those three honour policies were nice, but totally superfluous? I'd have won the war comfortably without those policies and now think of what I've missed out on.'

I've found myself thinking like that on a number of occasions and so now I'll only take honour policies if I really think I'm at serious risk of failing without them.

Professional army is almost a must for naval upgrades. 600+ per ship (from frigate->destroyer) costs far too much. That's 2-3 RAs per ship you're missing out on.

 

[Polycrates]

This is a fantastic discussion going on here!

Couple of questions though: what difference does it make to your starting policies if you pop the +culture bonus from a ruins in the early turns? Used to be it was a nice bump to your existing plans and nothing more, but with the changes to policies I'm not sure that's still the case. If you get that early bump, I'm just wondering if it's ever not worth just going straight for that free settler regardless of your future plans - because a free settler that early is just a massive bonus. And the 50% discount counts most by far on the very first settler you build yourself, even if it's the only settler you ever build. Seems to me like that much advantage that early can't really be beaten.

Second: Is monument first a viable build now? Again, particularly to race for that early settler advantage. Gonna hurt your scouting/tile improvement somewhat but seems like it could be worth it. Alternatively, scout then monument gives you a chance to check out whether there's some really great land out there (and sufficient luxuries) in need of some settlin' before you commit, but slows your settler down a bit (unless you pop a culture ruin).

 

[RealHuhn]

This is a fantastic discussion going on here!
[...]
Second: Is monument first a viable build now? Again, particularly to race for that early settler advantage. Gonna hurt your scouting/tile improvement somewhat but seems like it could be worth it. Alternatively, scout then monument gives you a chance to check out whether there's some really great land out there (and sufficient luxuries) in need of some settlin' before you commit, but slows your settler down a bit (unless you pop a culture ruin).

With monument first I usually go Liberty -> Citizenship for the free worker. Improving land in your capital is very important for the 300 gold from early luxuries.

Although Scout -> Monument is better I guess unless you play as America (1st warrior can scout).

Good opening for NC starts (buying the library).

 

[slobberinbear]

This is a fantastic discussion going on here!

Couple of questions though: what difference does it make to your starting policies if you pop the +culture bonus from a ruins in the early turns? Used to be it was a nice bump to your existing plans and nothing more, but with the changes to policies I'm not sure that's still the case. If you get that early bump, I'm just wondering if it's ever not worth just going straight for that free settler regardless of your future plans - because a free settler that early is just a massive bonus. And the 50% discount counts most by far on the very first settler you build yourself, even if it's the only settler you ever build. Seems to me like that much advantage that early can't really be beaten.

Second: Is monument first a viable build now? Again, particularly to race for that early settler advantage. Gonna hurt your scouting/tile improvement somewhat but seems like it could be worth it. Alternatively, scout then monument gives you a chance to check out whether there's some really great land out there (and sufficient luxuries) in need of some settlin' before you commit, but slows your settler down a bit (unless you pop a culture ruin).

I'm not sure the culture ruin should make you change your policy plans. I have used it for all three opening policies depending on the occasion. It's a nice jumpstart.

For the reasons you say, I prefer scout first (sometimes two scouts) unless I absolutely know my opening warrior will be sufficient for scouting or if I require an early worker (say I get a lot of mining or AH resources and can use a worker).

 

[Antarion]

yeah worker first is imho good for india (normally u start with 2-3 cows in grasslands i u pick them) or egypt; but else i would prefer scout or monument if u want to use liberty.

 

[Polycrates]

I'm not sure the culture ruin should make you change your policy plans. I have used it for all three opening policies depending on the occasion. It's a nice jumpstart.

For the reasons you say, I prefer scout first (sometimes two scouts) unless I absolutely know my opening warrior will be sufficient for scouting or if I require an early worker (say I get a lot of mining or AH resources and can use a worker).

I just think that something like a free settler and a 50% discount on subsequent settlers is something that is so incredibly time-dependent in its importance, more so than a free worker or even free great person. If you pop a culture ruin (which is not terribly uncommon) in the first 10-15 turns, then you're likely to have a free settler around about the time you finish scout/worker, and if circumstances favour you then you can build or buy a warrior then go straight into building a second settler at only half the time cost (and thus lost city growth cost) of everyone else who is still building their first at the same time. That just seems like such an obscene advantage that I'd be crazy not to take it.

Even if I was going to follow up the Tradition path, then I suspect I would even delay that until after the settler, rather than set back the settler 10-15 turns or something.

I just tried this in my current game (Denmark - completely awesome!) and it worked an absolute treat. Liberty -> free settler -> free worker -> free GP (settled an academy - definitely the right choice in this game, I think) -> golden age+33% culture discount -> commerce
I'm ludicrously far ahead of everyone else (on emperor) and I really think the early settler(s) was the key. I'm not sure anything else could compete. I tried a game with monument first, but it delayed my first worker so much that I'm not sure it's the answer.

 

[Lyoncet]

I just think that something like a free settler and a 50% discount on subsequent settlers is something that is so incredibly time-dependent in its importance, more so than a free worker or even free great person

That, plus the fact that unless you want to buy a library for an NC start, you're usually going to be able to sink quite a bit of gold into settlers (since they are the one thing that above all others hurts you to build, due to the growth stoppage), especially if you take the free worker, which with Meritocracy is pretty common.

 

[Muskie]

With monument first I usually go Liberty -> Citizenship for the free worker. Improving land in your capital is very important for the 300 gold from early luxuries.

Although Scout -> Monument is better I guess unless you play as America (1st warrior can scout).

Good opening for NC starts (buying the library).

I'm pretty much a monument first guy. It is a hold over from Civ III perhaps when old cultural buildings produced more culture. That isn't how it is now, but I like getting some easy early Social Policies and one warrior is enough for smaller maps right at the very beginning.

Cheers,