Five flavors of GP farm

[Grey Fox]

Hammers into wealth and research are also independent of the slider, and this is what crusher was getting at. Town hammers.

Well another benefit of specialists is they ARE multiplied by for example Wall Street. Something wealth and research isn't.

 

[Norzin]

Another point of Crusher's was the advantage of running Universal Suffrage precisely for the getting of the cottage hammers that he then turns into gold via wealth. I will further demonstrate that his cottage city becomes even more ineffecient than my merchant city when it is running Representation rather than Universal Suffrage.

I'll just post numbers here that will be easy to compare.
Now remember, his city possesses 0 farms and 20 cottages, and will therefore reach size 21 max with 1 merchant.

My base city will have 6 farms, 14 cottages and 6 merchants and will reach size 26 max.

Now, I'll list, in order, his city, my city under US, and my city under Rep. The numbers, in order, will be: beakers, gold and total beakers plus gold (bgpt)

Beakers Gold BGPT
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 190 82 272
Me Rep 221 54 275

Now, of course, my city will obtain GM's, and so here's the numbers with 2 GM's
2 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 202 120 322
Me Rep 244 90 334

4 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 214 158 372
Me Rep 267 126 393

6 GMs
Crusher 245 49 294
Me US 226 196 422
Me Rep 289 162 451

I must also add the note that it is much easier and quicker to get 4 GM's than it is to grow 20 fully mature cottages. Because, every time that city grows 1 more level, it must then take an unworked cottage and wait however long for that cottage to become fully mature.

Hence, in conclusion, the idea of using Universally Suffraged Cottages to produce gold at 100% science is an entirely false idea in every way. My cities (especially without US) produce more gold and more science. The disparity between my city and his become even more pronounced if we are not running Free Speech.

Under Universal Suffrage, each GM is worth 2 FS Towns, and 4 non-FS towns. Under representation, each GM is worth 3 FS towns, and 5 non FS towns. For those wondering, that calculation derives from the fact that each GM provides food, and that 2 GM's provide enough food for an extra cottage or specialist. Hence, that extra production caused by the GM food counts towards its value yield.

Yet another person completely missing the point. Crusher1s point was perfectly valid and correct. Anyone can make their point of view look stronger when they change the base argument. But, if you stick to the exact context Crusher1 laid out you get the snug looking dumber than he already does.

 

[The Snug]

My God man, my numbers are proof. Use an argument that shows numbers rather than resorting to empty rhetoric.

I didn't change the base argument. I simply optimized his city. And again, the very most gold you can get from town hammers is 40, which, again, is not multiplied by WS. What part of this can you not understand?

It is now your mental intransigence which is resulting in folly.

 

[ShannonCT]

A massive cottage city who has founded, say, Sushi + Mining Corps + a holy shrine + a few settled GMs can easily bring in much much more than 400 gpt at 100% slider if it has Wall Street.

The two bolded parts are completely unrelated at 100% science.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.

Bolded parts still completely unrelated at 100% science.

They actually help. My personal best Wall Street in a cottage city was 550 gpt at 100% slider. It will take more than 7 merchants to match that, something which cannot be done unless you are in Caste. If you have a crazy food corp of some sort you could also run 7 merchants plus 20 Towns in the perfect site and do even better.

And again. The 550 gold you got was mostly from shrine/corp income. Any gold from towns came from the Universal Suffrage hammers, which are multiplied by forge/factory/power plant/Ironworks and not WS. WS is still getting no benefit from towns at 100% science.

It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out.

At 100% science, a city with forge, factory, plant, market, grocer, bank, and Wall Street makes more gold from 7 merchants than from 20 towns:

7 merchants * 3 gold each = 21 gold before modifiers. 21 gold + 200% from market/grocer/bank/WS = 63 gold.

20 towns * 1 hammer = 20 hammers before modifiers. 20 hammers + 100% from forge/factory/plant = 40 hammers = 40 gold. Wall Street has no effect here. The only time 20 towns can produce more gold than 7 merchants at 100% science is during a golden age when the grass/FP towns will add 2 hammers to a tile instead of 1.

My point was Towns will produce more gold at 100% slider than 7 merchants.

And your point is wrong except during a golden age.

 

[Th3 PuNiSh3R]

My God man, my numbers are proof. Use an argument that shows numbers rather than resorting to empty rhetoric.

Actually, Crushers numbers are right on track. I used WB using his conditions and the towns came out ahead every single time. Even DaveMcW agreed. But most people already know Crusher is right but that he is way off topic.

And your point is wrong except during a golden age.

Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

 

[Norzin]

Actually, Crushers numbers are right on track. I used WB using his conditions and the towns came out ahead every single time. Even DaveMcW agreed. But most people already know Crusher is right but that he is way off topic.



Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

You are the winner!

 

[The Snug]

You don't read the posts carefully do you? I have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is wrong.

 

[ShannonCT]

Completely wrong. World Builder proves otherwise. But once again, the fact that Crusher is right is off topic.

Crusher is not right:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The 7 merchant city is producing more gold than the 20 town city.

Not only is his advice about Wall Street wrong, but his off-topic point is wrong. Unfortunately, DaveMcW was wrong about this point also, a rare mistake from him.

 

[Crusher1]

Some people are still rather clueless for whatever reasons may be. For those smart enough to catch on, congrats. Yes, I'm off topic, yes, I'm a bit brash. Yes, I get bored sometimes and like to make specific arguments which I have already tested and know to be 100% true - if you pay attention.

I always leave room for people to hang themselves - usually the folks who don't have good listening or reading skills, and sometimes that includes those lacking basic fundamental knowledge of the game - not always.

Here was one of my previous post's - so please, for the people still needing correction, this is for you:

It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, industrial park, levee's and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out.

EDIT:

Some people trying to disprove my 100% correct statement have not been using all the necessary buildings nor meshing Civics!

So, what do we have? We have WB, No Tricks, Appropriate Modifiers, Appropriate Civics, and a Merchant City with only 7 merchants and No additional hammers - I.E. 1, and 1 only.

Crusher is not right:

O? You made a WB test which does not meet the standards I laid out. Where is you're +50% for Capital!? Yes, you need Bureaucracy! Where is your +10% for Civics!? Yes, you need State Property! Where is your Industrial Park!? Where is your Levee!? Why does your Merchant City have a 2 Hammer City!?

Obviously some people remain incorrect.


When you do it right this is what you get! Note**, if my city had a river as big as yours the difference would be even GREATER.

DaveMcW was wrong about this point also, a rare mistake from him.

Actually, Dave is very very smart, and as we can see, 100% correct. He didn't fall for the trick

 

[Grey Fox]

So what you are doing here Crusher is reinforcing the point that WALL STREET does nothing with wealth produced by hammers?
Your city is producing 78 hammers, 78 hammers that are turned into gold. 0 of that gold is being boosted by Wall Street.
It must have taken at least 10 turns, or thousands of gold or multiple population to rush Wall Street into this city. After which it does nothing, except a few merchant GPP.

 

[Crusher1]

@ Fox who says,

So what you are doing here Crusher is reinforcing the point that WALL STREET does nothing with wealth produced by hammers?

Once again, you need to be astute. Here is one of my older posts which is a fit everything if you will: "You wanna stay in Emancipation so you're only gonna have like 7 merchant slots open which doesn't get you more gold at 100% slider in the best case."

Now add that together with my last post here: "It's a simple WB test - no tricks needed. All you have to do is get 20 Towns, building wealth, with the appropriate modifiers like forge, market, grocer, bank, factory, power, industrial park, levee's and throw in Wall Street. Then you do the same with a 7 merchant city maxed out in food with no extra hammers and the Town city will be the one producing more gold at 100% slider. There's not trick to it. It's just the way it works out."

and it should be very clear.

Never, at any time in this thread have I said building wealth is modified by Wall Street. I have said and will continue to say, that under the conditions that I listed, when at 100% Towns will produce more than 7 merchants with 1 hammer.

So I suppose DaveMcW and Voice are the only guys up for the task in the past week - very keen individuals unwilling to fall face first. I'm actually impressed.


Voice of Unreason:

No - he's just deliberately choosing not to clarify.

So yea, everyone, including myself are way off topic for continuing this, however, there is absolutely no doubt I, and a few of the other astute viewers are 100% correct - it's not even debatable.

 

[ShannonCT]

O? You made a WB test which does not meet the standards I laid out. Where is you're +50% for Capital!? Yes, you need Bureaucracy! Where is your +10% for Civics!? Yes, you need State Property! Where is your Industrial Park!? Where is your Levee!? Why does your Merchant City have a 2 Hammer City!?

Ignoring the fact that you have never mentioned that this WS street city was also your capital, or that it would be foolish to put WS in a cottaged capital if running 100% science, or that the corporation income you mention doesn't exist in State Property, YOU'RE STILL WRONG.

The cottage city in your screenshot has 7 river tiles and is getting 7 base hammers from the levee, and 2 base hammers from the free engineer. The merchant city has no river and is getting no hammers from a levee, nor from the engineer, and you forgot to set it to build wealth. If you made a valid comparison, the merchant city would be getting 10 + 160% = 26 more gold from these missing items. That puts our merchant city at 89 gold per turn, 11 gpt ahead of your cottage city.

Comparing two cities with different buildings, base terrain, and build choice (wealth vs. not wealth) is much like arguing that you could beat Michael Jordan in a dunk contest when you're aiming at a 7 foot rim and Michael's aiming at a 15 foot rim.

 

[DigitalBoy]

tl;dr version:

The only thing Crusher1 has said in this whole topic that's made any sense or had any relevance is that you can't have more 7 merchants in a city without Caste System, and then tries to pull a CYA by acting like all the crazy nonsense he's been saying has been on purpose.

Anyone remember that pic I linked back earlier? Here's the full comic it's from, somehow the full message seems pretty relevant here. *cough*

Spoiler :

 

[Bandobras Took]

He was just saying that at 100% science slider, cottages are contributing 0 to your economy. That's what the slider is, the % of going to science versus gold, right? Or do I have an error in concept (very possible).

Blitz if funny.

What I'm saying Blitz is if you are running a CE, and not a SE, then you will be in Emancipation, not Caste, and if that is true, the best case scenario for your Wall Street will be in a COTTAGE CITY, not a merchant, specialist city.

I'll freely admit to being a little slow.

Given that you responded to the 100% science slider statement with this, why is a cottage city the best case scenario over a merchant city with the exact same corp HQs, etc?

 

[The Snug]

Wow. Crusher. I see you did not even attempt to address the proof my arguments gave. You cannot address that the most gold you can obtain from 20 cottages building wealth is 40. You could get up to 50 if it is a bureaucratic capital, but you'd be much better off running Free Speech to get an extra 40 base commerce to be multiplied rather than that 10 bureau gold.

Assinine. Totally lacking any truth whatsoever. Someone please address the max 40 gold that can be obtained by cottages. Someone, please. 40 max gold. That's it, no more.

20 cottages provide 1 hammer each under US, which can only be multiplied by 2 with a forge, factory and power to achieve 40. That is the max. How is this so difficult to understand?

6 merchants yield 6x3x3=54 gold. 54 gold. For those lacking math skills, 54 is greater than 40. In addition, it must be conceded that 6 merchants would have yielded Great Merchants that could be settled for an additional 18 gold/turn/merchant. Their can be no arguing this.

Your WB tests are illsuions. The first city is propped up by a levee and a Great Engineer, which you pass off as production from your cottages. This is a tasteless, tactless trick that is attempting to deceive the inattentive reader from the truth. Your second city doesn't possess the river and levee and Great Engineer, and has also not optimized its terrain like the city I described did.

Quit lying to the readers of this board, and use honest examples.

 

[Norzin]

Wow. Crusher. I see you did not even attempt to address the proof my arguments gave. You cannot address that the most gold you can obtain from 20 cottages building wealth is 40. You could get up to 50 if it is a bureaucratic capital, but you'd be much better off running Free Speech to get an extra 40 base commerce to be multiplied rather than that 10 bureau gold.

Assinine. Totally lacking any truth whatsoever. Someone please address the max 40 gold that can be obtained by cottages. Someone, please. 40 max gold. That's it, no more.

20 cottages provide 1 hammer each under US, which can only be multiplied by 2 with a forge, factory and power to achieve 40. That is the max. How is this so difficult to understand?

6 merchants yield 6x3x3=54 gold. 54 gold. For those lacking math skills, 54 is greater than 40. In addition, it must be conceded that 6 merchants would have yielded Great Merchants that could be settled for an additional 18 gold/turn/merchant. Their can be no arguing this.

Your WB tests are illsuions. The first city is propped up by a levee and a Great Engineer, which you pass off as production from your cottages. This is a tasteless, tactless trick that is attempting to deceive the inattentive reader from the truth. Your second city doesn't possess the river and levee and Great Engineer, and has also not optimized its terrain like the city I described did.

Quit lying to the readers of this board, and use honest examples.

Those who understood were DaveMcW, Voice of Unreason, Myself, Th3 Punish3r, and of course, Crusher1. No need to hate on those of us who have also used WB and reached the same conclusion. Everyone is guilty of being off topic because you, and everyone else keep on bringing the subject up, over and over again.

The good thing is that Crusher1s point is valid and 100% correct. It was very simple to understand if you simply thought about it as so many already have. Don't hate and get jealous because you lack the ability to comprehend a fools gimmick.

Just take your medicine and admit your wrong, as so many people can clearly see, and move on.

 

[ShannonCT]

Those who understood were DaveMcW, Voice of Unreason

These two have correctly pointed out that Wall Street does nothing for cottages at 100% science. They have both basically said that Crusher is being obtuse, deliberately or otherwise.

Myself, Th3 Punish3r, and of course, Crusher1.

...which are almost certainly the same person. No three individuals with separate brains could conceivably cling to the same lie with such vigor in the face of such clear evidence against it.

 

[Norzin]

Tehehehehehe!

Wowser! You should also put DaveMcW and Voice on that list too. Matter of fact, any person who disagrees with you and proves you unequivocally wrong should be on that list too. Don't forget to put your mother, father, and boss on the list too. Actually, no. Lets put anyone who lives in California, Texas, and New York on that list too!

in the face of such clear evidence against it.

Poor sweety. The evidence is overwhelmingly against you. You got it backwards.

 

[Norzin]

Kids these days. 3,000 post and still lost.

 

[101confused]

Hi all. I'm a long time Civ III player who has just recently started playing Civ IV. I have to admit that I'm really confused after reading through this thread. In my last game playing as the Ottomans I had a really nice city site with a shrine that I was going to use for my Wall Street. Anyways, after reading all these replies I decided to stop what I was doing and think about where I really wanted to put Wall Street. So I did a world builder test like a bunch of other people and now I'm even more confused. In one test I had a bunch of towns which seemed to be giving me more gold but in another test I used a city which had a bunch of food and was able to build wealth and run merchants. So basically, what do I do? I can see that towns are better in very specific circumstances like seen in a few of the above screen shots but the problem I find is that doesn't happen to often. I guess I'll just try to find a nice merchant city unless I get lucky with the perfect town city.