Fix the 5th trash game

[Roland Johansen]

Here are my general comments:

A good number of you seem to not like improving tiles. Early improvements on tiles can give huge benefits and it's something to consider. Also, the city defenses are a little scant in some of the saves - having access only to warriors/archers can be bad if you get unlucky on barbs (like me). I think hooking up some sort of strategic resource is critical in the early game.

I fully agree on the benefits of early terrain improvements. A terrain improvement makes a tile about twice as efficient and because a civilization typically develops at an almost exponential rate until the expansion phase is over, a doubling of that exponential rate is huge.

I don't think that early strategic resources are critical to defend against barbarians. I normally play on huge maps (at higher than monarch difficulty level) and strategic resources are spread thinner on those maps while research is more expensive on huge maps. Both of these factors result in barbarians, even axemen, regularly appearing before you've had the chance to get a strategic resource connected. Sometimes because you didn't go for the technology early enough, sometimes because the resource wasn't in the neighbourhood. Since there is more open space on huge maps, the barbarians typically will also appear in larger numbers.
Often it is up to your archers to defend against them. With some fogbusters on forests and hills, you can defend yourself quite well against even axemen. Especially once your archers get the shock promotion.

Of course, axemen and chariots are often more succesful at defeating barbarians. I agree with that. But the statement that strategic resources are critical versus barbarians is a bit too strong. Axeman are also more expensive than archers. But of course, in the end, they're more cost efficient versus barbarians.

Roland: Like mice's save, the access to gold is nice but it also lacks food. However, Judaism has spread to our cities which is a huge bonus diplomatically. IW is complete, which is nice for all that jungle but no strategic resources hooked up yet. Maybe grab the horse/rice city? Delhi has developed quite nicely.

Iron will be connected in 6 turns and then I'll be able to build barracks-enhanced axemen, spearmen and swordsmen in two of my cities. It's a lot later than what you did, but it hasn't caused me troubles. It could have cost me a few archers if I would have been unlucky with barbarians, but it hasn't. The fogbusting northern warrior might have helped a bit and the city placement by other civilizations might have helped a bit.
The settler that can be poprushed now in the capital is destined to go to the horse, rice, dye(2) city. The archers are moving ahead of the settler and one or two workers will follow him. (I think I'll build another worker in the capital).

I don't know why you think that my gold city (Madras) doesn't have enough food. Of course, using both of the two gold mines at the same time takes 4 food. But the city is expanding its borders in 8 turns and will have finished a granary in 10 turns (actually quicker as one of the workers is going to chop a forest). When the borders are expanded, the city will have a cow and a floodplain in the fat cross. Both of which can be improved by the worker in the neighbourhood which can stop chopping forests at that point. If you irrigate the floodplain, then you will be at +2 food with the 2 gold mines, the floodplain and the cow. Not great, but good enough with a granary and there aren't many other tiles you want to use really quickly after those 4 tiles. The city will grow very quickly if you don't use both of the gold mines. It's not that I want to use massive pop-rushing in that city next to using the gold mines.

By the way, my research rate is about twice as high at the moment as most of the other games. That's not only because of the gold mine (also because of cottages), but it does play its part. I really love gold.

 

[cabert]

I see 3 different, valid, approaches :
- military (shyhue and mine, although not total equal, are similar : he has 2 axemen, I have 1 and 1 more coming soon, he has chosen IW, and I have chosen alphabet. You don't fight with alphabet, but you can't extort techs with IW ). It's not yet an option, really, but axe rushing works well.
- settlers = horinzontal developpement (cam, mice, pigswill). Land is power . Mice got the gold spot, which will soon pay for more expansion
- vertical expansion = workers+bigger cities. It's the most efficient way in the very early game, but the limit is low (happy cap, health cap). So it needs to open opportunities for the near future. I think Roland's gold mine shows it's power already.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I wouldn't want to describe my approach as a vertical expansion. At least, that is not my goal. I want to develop my economy a bit while expanding because I know that each new city will increase the upkeep. If you don't build any cottages, then it will start to hurt badly around the fifth or sixth city.

I actually think that the players who went for a fourth city and are already planning a fifth actually are already thinking about investing in their economy a bit to maintain the expansion. It's just that the moment that they invest in an economy is shifted a bit compared to my approach.

I actually think that a good expansion is just finding the right balance between building new cities and developing your economy. I want to keep expanding at a steady pace while some others want to grab a few good spots and then develop them and then expand further. I like expanding at at steady pace because the cottages can develop while you're expanding. The players who want to grab a few good spots before developing their economy probably do this because they are afraid someone else will take them.

What is the best approach? Yeah, that's a hard one and usually depends on the map size and the actual map and availability of resources.

But maybe I should let the players who grabbed 4 cities talk for themselves and let them explain their more long term goals.

By the way, I wonder why so few actually tried to develop iron working. It is very important with all of those jungles in the area. A savegame without iron working is significantly weaker than one with iron working, in my opinion. But of course, I wouldn't have developed iron working if I hadn't thought so.

 

[shyuhe]

I think I had a lot more barbarian trouble than any of the other players, it seems... I recall having at least a handful of archers and warriors wandering around into my territory, which is why I'm surprised that there are others out there with only single warriors in cities. And barbarians in warlords are smarter - they won't suicide themselves against fortified archers in strategic locations but will bypass them enroute to cities. As I said, I hate the RNG

 

[Roland Johansen]

I think I had a lot more barbarian trouble than any of the other players, it seems... I recall having at least a handful of archers and warriors wandering around into my territory, which is why I'm surprised that there are others out there with only single warriors in cities. And barbarians in warlords are smarter - they won't suicide themselves against fortified archers in strategic locations but will bypass them enroute to cities. As I said, I hate the RNG

Barbarians in warlords behave a bit more unpredictable or random and that makes it harder to fight them. It's not true that they won't suicide them enroute to your cities. They still do that regularly.

For example: in this game a barbarian archer approached Delhi from the west. So I decided to move my single archer in Delhi on top of the most northern of its western hills, I also upgraded it with a combat promotion (it was a barracks archer). I moved it to the hill because I didn't want my mines to be pillaged. Because of the large borders of Delhi and the roads that I had build around Delhi, my archer even had a full turn to start fortifying. I also started building a new archer in Delhi in case I lost and I could poprush it in an emergency. My second archer was finished by some forest chopping that I was doing in the area.

The barbarian archer moved past the hill archer onto Delhi with a few roads and the pastured cow ready to be pillaged if it moved futher. I wasn't going to let that happen but I waited one turn before I started attacking with my two archers. However, the barbarian archer decided to attack my hill archer anyhow. My hill archer had by now a 70% advantage (hill + combat + 10% fortify) over the barbarian archer and won the battle.

So, it's not that they won't suicide themselves anymore. It's more that they aren't predictably suiciding themselves anymore. The barbarian archer could have moved onto Delhi and then I would have been forced to attack him or suffer some pillaging.

There seems to be a relation between the chance of victory and the chance that they attack you. A warrior will rarely attack a hill archer, while an axeman will (almost) always attack him.

And if you've lost several units to the barbarians in this time period, then you're right to hate the RNG because I don't think many of us did lose that many units (maybe some warriors at most). You will just have to show us your superior gameplay in the next time period. When more units are available, the RNG isn't that important anymore.

 

[KMadCandy]

your faithful returning officer needs a rules question answered. i thought we were not allowed to vote for ourselves for best or trash game. someone sent in a vote for himself. so i get to send him to sit in the corner? it is quite possible that rule only applies to the trash games. the voter's identity will not be revealed. even in my drug haze i hold the voter/officer relationship sacred. thanks!

i haven't opened saves yet but i've read the posts. them barbs were mean to me too! i didn't lose any units, but they tore up some improvements. i was playing those moves conservatively, didn't want to lose the city, but i was not pleased at my cows let lose from the pasture! i made a gold city not exactly where i wanted to. i resented bismarck for messing up the dotmap in my mind, but quite enjoyed watching him deal with the barbs for me *giggle*.

 

[Roland Johansen]

i haven't opened saves yet but i've read the posts. them barbs were mean to me too! i didn't lose any units, but they tore up some improvements. i was playing those moves conservatively, didn't want to lose the city, but i was not pleased at my cows let lose from the pasture! i made a gold city not exactly where i wanted to. i resented bismarck for messing up the dotmap in my mind, but quite enjoyed watching him deal with the barbs for me *giggle*.

Did you place the gold city at the same spot as I did (hill east of desert)? I also saw Bismarck getting attacked by multiple barbarians.

 

[mice]

your faithful returning officer needs a rules question answered. i thought we were not allowed to vote for ourselves for best or trash game. someone sent in a vote for himself. so i get to send him to sit in the corner? it is quite possible that rule only applies to the trash games. the voter's identity will not be revealed. even in my drug haze i hold the voter/officer relationship sacred. thanks!

I can answer that one Kmad. People cant vote for themselves in any vote.

BTW get well soon.

 

[shyuhe]

You will just have to show us your superior gameplay in the next time period. When more units are available, the RNG isn't that important anymore.

I wish! I've been getting very discouraged recently in my SP games. The AI keeps on roasting me till I'm nice and tender I even got a few 0 point losses My personal HOF is starting to look very pretty.

Oh yeah, how many more turn sets is this SG going to take? I'm going to be on summer vacation soon and I will not be able to access my computer. Just a heads up that I may have to drop out towards the end (early May-ish).

 

[cabert]

I wish! I've been getting very discouraged recently in my SP games. The AI keeps on roasting me till I'm nice and tender I even got a few 0 point losses My personal HOF is starting to look very pretty.

Oh yeah, how many more turn sets is this SG going to take? I'm going to be on summer vacation soon and I will not be able to access my computer. Just a heads up that I may have to drop out towards the end (early May-ish).

should be over mid may, if all goes well

Kmad : no voting for oneself. Please PM the voter, he should vote again.

 

[KMadCandy]

the anonymous voter has amended his ways, so all is well! i have four valid notes now. in other news, the self-described "Dutch jury" sent in the ballot with the numbers spelled out for clarity, which is a good thing. however, french spelling was used, not dutch, which made me giggle

roland it sounds like my gold city was where yours was! haven't looked to be certain. it was so funny, the change in my thinking from "grrr grumble" to "oh wow, this is a very good thing in one sense, he's totally being the barb buffer zone for me!" i'd forgotten about that, haven't had such cozy neighbors in a game with barbs in quite a long time. so even in my own "OMG tear my hair out" attempt i learned that and some other things, which is nifty.

 

[pigswill]

I can sympathise with Shyuhe. Looking at my turns so far in this game I've not been playing at all well; getting worse rather than better. Hopefully its just a passing phase. Maybe I just need to think about what I'm doing and pay more attention.

 

[shyuhe]

when in doubt, blame the RNG If the AI grabs a city spot you wanted, blame the RNG It (kind of) makes sense.

@Kmad: what's a "Dutch jury"?

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Here are my general comments:

Ojevind: Underdeveloped Delhi isn't to my taste. Monotheism is also not very useful at this point as there isn't that much infrastructure to build (OR bonus) and Judaism has already been founded. Only 1 worker for 3 cities is a little light on workers, considering the number of unimproved tiles that remain. You also had the bad luck of having Cyrus discover alphabet

To add on to cabert's comments (I hope you're not offended) regarding your coastal city argument - I don't really agree with the need for a coastal city. You'll eventually run into the coast once you start warring or from later expansions - it's not a very high priority (unless you see lots of seafood). Also, blocking only works if you can carve out a backyard that you can fill at your own leisure. Dividing the continent can lead to... some serious diplomatic issues later.

I'm not offended, but I must disagree about Monotheism; I find Organized Religion to be extremely useful. And I stick to my guns about the necessity of having an outlet to the sea. As for dividing the continent: I want to keep Brennus from encircling us. Bismarck has quite a bit of territory to expand into, so he will probably not become too cranky with us, especially not if we ensure that we have a big, solid army. Builders who want to be allowed to build in peace need big armies! And it would be very, very useful if Bismarck becomes a "brother in the faith". That is more likely to happen the less contact he has with Brennus.

However, I do agree that I have been remiss when it comes to working tiles. Normally, I would have had at least two workers at this stage.

 

[shyuhe]

The reason why I don't think OR is such a hot civic at this point is because 1) there's only so much infrastructure to build at this point - granary and library and 2) it involves adopting a state religion. Assuming you can spread hinduism to all of the other cities, you'll still be adopting a religion that's contrary to what Cyrus (he won't hate you that much) and Brennus have (he'll loathe you). Brennus can play like a mini-Izzy at times, so I think it's a pretty big gamble to be running a contrary state religion. However, Brennus' preferred civic is OR, so you may be able to negate the bad state religion bonus with a "you run our fav. civic" bonus if Brennus goes into OR also.

I guess it's just sounding like a cost/benefit analysis at this point To each his own I will try an early OR in my next game to see how it plays out.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

The reason why I don't think OR is such a hot civic at this point is because 1) there's only so much infrastructure to build at this point - granary and library and 2) it involves adopting a state religion. Assuming you can spread hinduism to all of the other cities, you'll still be adopting a religion that's contrary to what Cyrus (he won't hate you that much) and Brennus have (he'll loathe you). Brennus can play like a mini-Izzy at times, so I think it's a pretty big gamble to be running a contrary state religion. However, Brennus' preferred civic is OR, so you may be able to negate the bad state religion bonus with a "you run our fav. civic" bonus if Brennus goes into OR also.

I must say that I *hate* Brennus. As you say, he is almost as bad as Isabella in religious matters, and he is rather aggressive in other respects too. I wouldn't say I hate Brennus as much as I hate Isabella, Alexander or Napoleon, but he is definitely one of the guys wearing black hats. Montezuma is more pathetic - usually, he fires his shot too soon and can then be taken out.

The idea of perhaps trying to appease Brennus a bit by sharing OR with him is a good one. I am opposed to refraining from using the religion we discovered out of fear of Brennus, though. There are limits to how pliant one should be, especially when it comes to abstaining from a rather big advantage, which having founded a religion is.

Whichever save wins, I must say I find this a good, stimulating, challenging game.

 

[KMadCandy]

shyuhe, i'm not sure if "Dutch jury" is a phrase meaning something other than simply a jury from the Netherlands. Roland will have to tell us.

and Ojevind you can say that again about stimulating and challenging! and with some easter candy, i'll feel well and enjoy the next round *knock wood*

 

[mice]

Your defences are extremely light. Especially Madras looks vulnerable as without cities to the north or south, barbarians (axemen, archers) could easily slaughter the single warrior defending the city.

Yes, this is a problem. I played a couple of turns on an a barb axe monstered the gold city.

regarding the placement of Madras. Yes it is weak. I see from your dot mapping that you like to use all the available good tiles. My city placement is at the stage of grabbing resources,and blocking out the AI only.

I think Fbelintani's Madras is good because it will be very powerful later in the game. My Madras was just a copper grab.

No iron-working but settling in the jungle. Yes , learning all the time

I just noticed that Bangalore isn't in a very good location - it is food poor. You have a floodplain and a cow, which doesn't leave a lot of excess food to work those gold mines that you've grabbed.

But doesn't grabbing a bit of gold early on give a big advantage? I mean early tech muscle can pay big dividends, even though the city will not reach full potential. Then there's the happiness from forges.

It's a moot point as I think this city will really die to Barbs

 

[pigswill]

Re outlet to the sea. At some point we'll probably need to set sail and explore the world. However that's not going to be very early on. Its worth considering that this is a game that's generally played in phases; each player will have their own strategy so the phases will be slightly different between people.
However the first phase for everyone is getting established: a few cities, a few workers, some units. Its hard to see how an outlet to the sea is necessary in the initial phase. You'll have a more solid game later on if you concentrate on early necessities.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Re outlet to the sea. At some point we'll probably need to set sail and explore the world. However that's not going to be very early on. Its worth considering that this is a game that's generally played in phases; each player will have their own strategy so the phases will be slightly different between people.
However the first phase for everyone is getting established: a few cities, a few workers, some units. Its hard to see how an outlet to the sea is necessary in the initial phase. You'll have a more solid game later on if you concentrate on early necessities.

One of the ways a religion spreads is along coasts. We have Hinduism in one coastal city (the one near Berlin) and will hopefully have it in the other coastal city too before long. Also, I do think we should try to build the Colossus; it's a fairly cheap, early Wonder that lasts a long time and gives lots of flokarinos. Er... money, that is.