Fix the 5th trash game

I think I described my rough goals in my turn set description but here's some added details:

I was trying to shore up the economy, while grabbing the horse site. I did not really foresee any war taking place before elephants and catapults were available as Brennus already had iron at the start of the set. However, I later found out that Bismarck lacks iron, ivory, and horses (whereas our two southern neighbors have these resources). Thus, I tagged him as the potential target - plus he's building wonders that are ripe for capturing. I didn't start building any axes though, as I wanted to hold off until catapults and elephants (with axes only as stack protectors). Thus my smallish military. I did trade techs aggressively as I didn't really see myself going after the southern neighbors any time soon, so might as well take advantage of them for the time being.

Brennus is a cranky fellow but he's teching substantially slower than Cyrus is. Vienne is just south of Delhi but it has stonehenge = lots of culture (requiring catapults), and thus a very hard target. He also has two iron sources, one that we can easily pillage but the other is in the heart of his empire. Plus, there's still a lot more jungle clearing to be done before his land will be worth taking (if at all). On the other hand, Bismarck has some really good city sites that would probably be more than enough to cruise to a space victory. There's a lot of grass and hills to the north and plenty of space to reach 10-12 cities (more than enough for a space victory). Cyrus won't backstab us so as long as we are careful of Brennus, there isn't much to worry about.

So with all of these long-term goals in mind, I switched to the same religion as Cyrus and Brennus to secure the southern border (neither Cyrus or Brennus will backstab at pleased - not sure about a dogpile though). I thought about grabbing the stone with the new city but I didn't like the mountain tiles it would pick up, so I opted to grab horses instead. I didn't build further north into the jungle because I wanted to leave space for a filler city later. I doubt the AI will settle between cultural boundaries and I can always close borders if I see an AI settler heading into the space. It's all covered in jungle right now and my workers are already busy so I didn't want to settle the intermediate spot (it would strain my overworked workers).

Regarding Bangalore (I think - the gold city), I got lucky that the axe went after Munich instead so I just grew it to size 4 for double gold. I don't really see it growing much larger than that as I will probably have it working the hills for more production. It's going to grow slowly as it is and it's not very open for whipping so I thought it would make a good hammer city.

Bombay (on the east coast) is turning into a better city now that it has iron in its cross - there are lots of underdeveloped tiles but it has some decent potential. I will probably turn this into a whipping/hammer production city as there just isn't enough room for growth to warrant commerce production and I needed to prioritize hammer production for the upcoming war.

Delhi and the west coast city are turning into the commerce cities - I've forced some specialists for the time being as I wanted to build an academy soon and also pop philosophy (so 2 GS' needed). After that, I think the western city will be cottaged all around (except a few farms for growth) and Delhi will be cottaged as well.

Research wise, I took alphabet in hopes of trading for Brennus' IW. I got that trade and also picked up HBR as a bonus. I got math in exchange for HBR from Brennus. I haven't traded math to Bismarck yet as I want to keep him away from catapults as long as possible. I may also make a few HA just in case. Basically I've tried to keep Bismarck out of the loop so that I can attack him with minimal losses and diplomatic penalties. Once I close borders with the southern guys (after getting enough religious positives), I can settle the north at my leisure, setting up an easy space win after that.

So that's more or less what I was thinking while playing my set.
 
Good point from cabert about underlying idea of the series: its not only to help less experienced players develop but its also about more experienced players having to up their normal game to keep us level with the AI.

Lots of statistics being produced; very useful facts which you can't glean just by looking at the map though looking at the map is also useful for getting an impression of the elements of people's games that can't be reduced to data.

All of which makes it difficult to vote. It might be helpful (if people have the time) if we could explain the underlying rationale for why we played in a particular way (I'm only saying this coz I've done it already :lol: ).

I tried to do it already, but I guess a little more explanations are needed.
I wanted (still do ;)) the great library. having no marble, not being industrious and having no way to get a GE in time, I decided to get asap to litterature and to keep the techs for me. I succeeded in doing so (monopoly on litterature) at the price of trades.
Not trading away alphabet deprived me from maths and IW. It also costs me a bit in the relation department.
I believe I can wait for cyrus to get maths and trade him lit + meditation for it.
I believe I can get IW from bismarck with litterature and whatever (maths for instance).
I believe I can get something from brennus after hurting him bad. For now, I did defensive warfare to avoid WW and take as many of his units for as few as possible of mine.
This war is costing me dearly (production is priority over research for now + whipping). But I believe brennus will attack all the non jewish in your games, so don't think the other saves are safe from him.
Of course, I did box him a bit, which certainly isn't something he likes + by cutting him from bismarck's land, he could only attack me (cyrus is jew).
I didn't declare on him, and I will take one or 2 of his cities = benefit expected from this war.

edit : a few things I noticed about the games (didn't open ojevind's, being out of the competition this round)
- cam : Unhappiness issues, gold city still size 1, a monument would have given you the broder pop a while ago, giving you the cows.
- pigswill : Expansion is badly needed. Not that you didn't notice :lol:
- Roland : alphabet would have been stronger than direct IW. I could have it (I don't, see above why) as trade money.
- Shyhue : bismarck has enough on his hands now. Seeing that he only has borders with you, that means war. Not a bad thing, in fact.
- mice : Undevelopped cities! Unconnected happy resources! Brennus is annoyed + worsening (religion), I cn't see how you could avoid a war with him. And you may get dogpiled on.
- Fbelintani : MM issue. A cottage on the flood plains in double gold city isn't the best solution. This city lacks food. Lucky grab of munich :).
 
I don't have a lot of time so I will be very short on my game plans.

I wanted to expand my economy, so I needed more cities and lots of cottages and the gold city needed to be developed. For that I needed more workers. Lots of forests weren't chopped yet and I used that to help production. That all worked decently.

I went for the horses city early after getting some additional workers for the tile improvements (among which cottages). It wouldn't be very good until I would chop the many jungles around it. But I do have the workers to do that and the city is developing. I build 2 other cities after that, both grabbing additional resources to help the cities grow large, happy and healthy.

I've build 2 axes and 2 chariots just to defend my lands against barbarians. I don't expect any wars with the AI's but I do think I could defend myself My plans were to expand further to the north. More cities and more cottage power.

I should have gone for alphabet as I already said because I would have gotten there first, but I wasn't sure of that and went for technologies that I could use directly. It would have been bad if I had researched alphabet and then be in a position where I couldn't trade technologies with anyone.

I'm going for the shrine now. 1 priest active and a second can be added as a second temple is finished. It takes about 10 turns to get the shrine (rough estimate).

I opened borders in order to get religion spread and foreign trade routes. Everyone is jew now and relations are fairly good. I think I will stay jew. With the large relation bonusses I will be able to trade resources and attack 1 AI without the other 2 getting seriously upset.

Worst points of other peoples games (IMHO)
1) not having iron working and having a city with jungle. Not having iron for wars.
2) having a low number of cities. You need to have a decent chunk of land to develop your economy into one that can compete with the AI.
3) having a low number of cottages. You can't start developing cottages after some 5 cities and in the AD years. It takes a lot of time to develop cottages and if you start late, then it takes too much time to get a competitive economy. I've build lots of cottages, but you can't see their power yet as it takes more time for them to develop than a 40 turn segment of this game. And most of them were only build after I had expanded the worker force and have been there for far less than 40 turns.
 
We are waiting for the last participant to mail his votes to me. They may make a difference, because there is a very close race between two candidates.
 
Actually, I miscounted; I forgot that I had the name of the last voter on a second slip of paper. So there were two participants that hadn't sent me their votes, and now one of them has; and now there are *three* possible "winners", depending on how the last participant votes. I have e-mailed him. In the meantime, the situation is quite exciting.
 
Excellent news :lol: :lol: .

I'd just like to thank everyone who voted for me.
 
Someone said that we should discuss the options a bit more for this save, so I'll do that here and now.

It looks like a challenge to take on Brennus. He is quite a lot stronger than us and we don't have the economy to support a much larger empire. The AI is of course a lot less capable in war than human players. I (and probably many others in this group) have battled AI opponents that had a bigger power rating difference (F9-screen graph). It's just a 2:1 difference: Is that all he's got! ;) :D

We're researching at a good rate, but we don't have the commerce production to support a large empire. Therefore, I think that when someone wants to go to war and capture a good number of cities, then he/she'll also have to expand the economy at the same time. (I would do it by building cottages.) Brennus could develop longbowmen during or before the war which might complicate things considerably. Just don't be surprised when it happens. It's probably better to get catapults before the war. But we might not get to decide the start of the war if Brennus decides to attack us. He's aggressive enough to do it.

A tip:
If an AI has redded out options to attack his neighbours and the reason is: "we have enough on our hands right now" or something like that, then it means that they are either at war or going to declare war soon. If the AI is not at war, then you might be its target.

Another unconventional way to start this save would be to go for normal expansion. It's not the most logical way to go with this save because Brennus hates us and we have some axemen ready to attack. I also don't know if you'll get enough land by peaceful expansion right now. It might not even be possible if Brennus decides to attack us. However if some of us take the aggressive road and some others the builders road, then we have a better chance to get a good savegame. That's the advantage of this round; we can try different tactics and pick the best one afterwards. It almost feels like cheating. ;) :D

I myself don't know if I have the time to play this week. A friend is staying over during a large part of the week. But if I have the time, then I might take the builders road, just because I think the rest of you won't (not because I think it's the best option). I might go to war after a while anyhow.

To everyone: let's hear your ideas about how to tackle this save!

Oh, one question to Pigswill: I'm impressed with the early invention of Philosophy. With our small philosophical empire, it feels a bit like we're the ancient Greeks who also were a highly advanced but small civilization with some well know philosophers. However, what is the goal of an early philosophy slingshot in this game? I have never done that before, it's not my style, so I'll have to ask. Is it for the religion or for the civic or the wonder or something else? We're playing your game, so I just want to know how you were planning to use it so that I might do the same. :)
 
Mainly for denial purposes; once we've got Taoism AI should be less likely to prioritise philosophy; its also a significant component of liberalism (research CS and paper while building 2 GS to lightbulb education). Pacifism may come in useful later once Brennus is sorted but that wasn't the priority. In this instance Taoism ain't important because we've already got Hinduism (+shrine).

This situation isn't that unusual for me; it usually happens because I get boxed in early. Essentially its letting the AI doing the hard work and then pinching the rewards. 4 settlers = 10 cats; very good chance of pinching four cities with 10 cats and having some cats left over.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Brennus declared. Axes will fare ok against gallic warriors. Cyrus is our friend so Brennus will annoy him by declaring. Bismark is also our friend. An optimistic way of regarding the game is that its set up to ambush Brennus. Once we start military production our power rating will climb; 4 scientists can quickly start working mines and forests (-15 beakers,+10 hammers); I haven't chopped much yet so that would also speed up production (maths gives 30 hammers/chop) and that's not including any whips.
 
I've started playing my set, and I must admit I didn't go after Brennus. I actually declared on Bismarck instead. I think it's going pretty well though so it'll be interesting to compare saves against those who went after Brennus instead. I guess the reason I chose Bismarck is that I know what resources he has and doesn't have :lol:
 
I've started playing my set, and I must admit I didn't go after Brennus. I actually declared on Bismarck instead. I think it's going pretty well though so it'll be interesting to compare saves against those who went after Brennus instead. I guess the reason I chose Bismarck is that I know what resources he has and doesn't have :lol:

you could also just look at the powe graph ;).

I'm not entirely satisfied with the way you guys analysed the saves.
bpt for 100% research is certainly not saying a lot.
I'm more inclined to say that the level of tech reached is a better indicator of the research rate :p.
However, 3 cities certainly isn't going to outtech 20 cities very long + it's quite difficult to build as many units with 3 cities than with 20.

Philosophy at this point makes a very good trade bait too.

Liberalism isn't at stake here, we'll run to education while the AIs will go for guilds and such things.
I'm going to double check, but I believe we can use some triangle diplomacy here. It's good that taoism is out already to make the other continent less likely to chase it, while we deal with our neighbours :).

I can't see how we could avoid a war in this round : we need land!
 
I don't know how the votes went, but I feel as though I might have 'dodged a bullet' with this round! Certainly losing Bangalore in the first three turns didn't help.

Piggy's left us with possibly the most interesting game to work with, and in some senses I think Roland might have got his non-trash game (although I admit I wasn't that excited about gifting Bombay to the Germans).
edit : a few things I noticed about the games (didn't open ojevind's, being out of the competition this round) ...
...
- Roland : alphabet would have been stronger than direct IW. I could have it (I don't, see above why) as trade money.
...
- Fbelintani : MM issue. ... Lucky grab of munich :).
Although Cabert's picked up Roland for going Iron Working > Alphabet, I too went that path over mulling it over a lot - particularly as a lucky Barbarian was all that was required to make us metal-less. It was a gamble either way, but as it happened Alphabet would have worked out better.

And Fbel's Munich! :eek: ... it took me a moment to work out how the heck that happened! :goodjob:

I'm looking forward to this round ... 1000AD?
 
1000 AD, theoretically before friday evening east coast time.
Cam suggested a (little) delay, and I'm inclined to go for it, since I'm having a little too much at hand.

That would bring the delay to saturday evening.

- end of round saturday evening east coast = sunday early morning european time = sunday noon australian time. This will give everybody the time to play this central round (I believe this is the round where we win or lose the game)
- we play up to 1000 AD
- we will chose the best game
- Mice will be the returning officer (provided he isn't away next weekend)
 
I'm quite happy to try to stick to our normal schedule, but I simply can't get anythiing done until 'your' Thursday night ('my' / 'Mice's' Friday) at absolute earliest. If this is excruciatingly long for the rest of the team, then I'll pull out to make way for a faster schedule, although it sounds as though the opposite might be the case. ;)

Your call Cap'n! :salute:
 
I'm quite happy to try to stick to our normal schedule, but I simply can't get anythiing done until 'your' Thursday night ('my' / 'Mice's' Friday) at absolute earliest. If this is excruciatingly long for the rest of the team, then I'll pull out to make way for a faster schedule, although it sounds as though the opposite might be the case. ;)

Your call Cap'n! :salute:

I think we need to make this round good.
No rushing, careful play is needed here.
I can't play this carefully enough before friday at best and I sure hope to propose a good save this time :).
 
The later date sounds fine to me too. I'll be 'at home' to receive the votes.

The round where the game is won or lost eh ? It will be very interesting to take time to analyze these saves.
 
I'm not entirely satisfied with the way you guys analysed the saves.
bpt for 100% research is certainly not saying a lot.
I'm more inclined to say that the level of tech reached is a better indicator of the research rate :p.
However, 3 cities certainly isn't going to outtech 20 cities very long + it's quite difficult to build as many units with 3 cities than with 20.

I think Shyuhe and I just mentioned the statistics and didn't comment on them very much. So we were pretty neutral about them. Of course, we chose which statistics we mentioned, but we stopped noone to show other statistics.

The bpt wasn't for 100% research. It was the bpt at a break even point for gold. It perfectly shows your research speed at the moment of the game save. However, it doesn't show that you just took a citizen of the gold mine to grow the city one size larger or that you just switched some mined hills for scientists. So it is not perfect, it is a statistic.
It also doesn't show the potential increase in science production in the future. I think that the number of cities and cottages show how well your economy will develop in the near future. And maybe the number of workers if you haven't build enough tile improvements yet.

At the point of the save, I had 7 cities and thus a considerable upkeep cost of 40 limiting my science output. That's why I'm warning some of you that fast conquest expansion will need a good economy back at home. It's a known fact about civ4 so maybe I shouldn't mention it. However, without more cities, we won't keep up in the science race in the long run. We'll have to deal with the upkeep cost at some point and it's better to expand sooner rather than later (as long as you don't go bankrupt).

Mainly for denial purposes; once we've got Taoism AI should be less likely to prioritise philosophy; its also a significant component of liberalism (research CS and paper while building 2 GS to lightbulb education). Pacifism may come in useful later once Brennus is sorted but that wasn't the priority. In this instance Taoism ain't important because we've already got Hinduism (+shrine).

This situation isn't that unusual for me; it usually happens because I get boxed in early. Essentially its letting the AI doing the hard work and then pinching the rewards. 4 settlers = 10 cats; very good chance of pinching four cities with 10 cats and having some cats left over.

I wouldn't be unhappy if Brennus declared. Axes will fare ok against gallic warriors. Cyrus is our friend so Brennus will annoy him by declaring. Bismark is also our friend. An optimistic way of regarding the game is that its set up to ambush Brennus. Once we start military production our power rating will climb; 4 scientists can quickly start working mines and forests (-15 beakers,+10 hammers); I haven't chopped much yet so that would also speed up production (maths gives 30 hammers/chop) and that's not including any whips.


Thank you. Now I know your approach which can be useful. We all play a bit differently which is nice to see. :)
 
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