Fix the 5th trash game

[KMadCandy]

as i said, i'm a playing a cultural game. i hit a roadblock where i flipped a city from george that had his national epic in it when i'd not yet built mine. this was terrible thing, i couldn't move it and his city wasn't gonna be my GP farm! i got advice and was able to fix it by gifting the city back, then i could build it again since national wonders are apparently like missionaries, the limit is how many you can have at once, not an "ever" limit like the pyramids.

i think that only happens with culture flips, not with cities you capture in a war, since it had never ever happened to me prior to last night. but i'm mentioning it here in case it counts during war, and in case we go to war against bismarck and capture some of his cities, because it could be a big fat deal.

if it's possible in wartime ... be aware that bismarck's globe is in Munich, giaur's archer can see the graphic. national epic came to me altho the library required to build NE did not. it still worked and gave me GPPs before i built a library, so clearly at least some of the "x needed for this" rules aren't followed in these cases. maybe it even lets you capture globe if you don't have 6 theatres, i dunno. his national epic is in berlin. his hermitage is in hamburg; his heroic epic is too, but we already built ours, so his would go poof and he'd get a chance to build it again (if he, like, stayed alive). obviously his forbidden palace is in bombay.

ps i did get revenge. not long after i flipped Atlanta aka "freaking NEpic ruin my day city", i flipped Philadelphia, home of Chichen Itza. memo to george washington: "if you ruin a woman's GP farm plans, she will find a way to undermine your defenses everywhere. don't mess with me." even tho i gave atlanta back, i kept philly .

 

[cabert]

I'm happy to go with the group decision.

My marriage would like it if we took a week off, but as discussed before, dragging these things out does sap momentum from the exercise, and I'm very worried about that (more so than my marriage it would seem! ).

to be honest I intended to go with option 3 initially.
Pigswill, our most respected trash team captain, could certainly hold the ground if needed.
I'd be disappointed to miss a fixing round, but then again i didn't fix anything since trash game 2 .

The two submission thing sounds good to me, but it would work best if they were differentiated somehow (e.g. one warmonger vs. one builder game, or one to be submitted by this (American) Friday night vs. one to be submitted one week later).

I don't like it too much I must say (no offense Kmad). What I learned the hard way is to try to anticipate problems, and playing 2 times the same round is worth nothing in this area (reloading can be good to try out specific strats, for the experience, but it's totally meek in the strat department).

This why I suggest that the most experienced players try to do the anticipation thing for others.
I tried it in my earlier post, and Giaur pointed the potentially missing coal which I somehow oversaw (at this stage, I'm not used to have such a small empire, and lack of coal is not something I'm used to).
I'd like you guys (and Kmad) to give the best future reading you can. This is certainly a better learning experience than checking the cards and replaying.

 

[KMadCandy]

I don't like it too much I must say (no offense Kmad). What I learned the hard way is to try to anticipate problems, and playing 2 times the same round is worth nothing in this area (reloading can be good to try out specific strats, for the experience, but it's totally meek in the strat department).

yeah i even *giggled* in the post since i didn't think it was within the spirit of the whole thing . no offense taken silly.

 

[Cam_H]

I'm still happy to go with the group decision, but I will be unable to participate in any meaningful discussion on the game for several days, and that's before addressing the 'Mrs. Cam issue' .

Cabert - I'm glad you were thinking Option 3., as respectfully that was my inital thought too.

I don't have great problems with the 'do over' concept provided that the two games aren't essentially the same with the second having a few less moves.

Can I say that I am thinking (IMHO) that this game could still be won peacefully?

 

[cabert]

Can I say that I am thinking (IMHO) that this game could still be won peacefully?

Sure you can say it, but I wouldn't count on our neighbours agreeing with you .
I'm a bit paranoid maybe, but the "enough on our hands" from bismarck makes me nervous. We're pushing some of his cities with our culture, and we all know this pushes some AIs buttons.

edit : did I mention this was a trash round, to be played up to 1820?

Reminder of rules :
- a winning game, even during a trash round wins us the game (= I don't want to plya further if the game already has been won)
- a lost game cannot be selected, even during a trash round (= no fixing possible if the game is over)

I don't think any of us is going to launch in the next 40 turns, and I also don't think any of the AIs is going to launch in this short time, so it's a full duration round.
Depending on the trash game, the next round may be a run for victory (= final round, no finish date, just try to win).

 

[Öjevind Lång]

The votes are in .

We have a winner .

The winner is Giaur the Great

Congratulations, Giaur!

I'm afraid I'm bowing out of the game at this point; there are other things I feel I should concentrate on. I might pop in and check how things are going. Best of luck, all!

 

[cabert]

Congratulations, Giaur!

I'm afraid I'm bowing out of the game at this point; there are other things I feel I should concentrate on. I might pop in and check how things are going. Best of luck, all!

If you've got time in the next 2 weeks for 40 turns, you may still try it.
I hope I didn't freak you out by beeing paranoid .

 

[Öjevind Lång]

If you've got time in the next 2 weeks for 40 turns, you may still try it.
I hope I didn't freak you out by beeing paranoid .

Yes, we'll see what things look like in two weeks. As for your second point, being paranoid when playing Civ with Brennus and Bismarck as neighbours is a Good Idea.

 

[FeedBack]

Hey guys!

Congratulations, Giaur! First game, first election! Good it was not a trash round!

About our options... I'd really appreciate if we could take THIS week off. I have a deadline this week and I think I wouldn't submit a game. I don't think I can vote also, as this weekend is "Mother's day" in Brazil... I know last game I was the one who proposed the two-week turnset that "killed" the game, but as this week is a mess for me and next is a mess for cabert, I can't think another way of addressing this.
Of course you can say "screw FB", but I would like if you didn't!

 

[cabert]

I'm happy to go with the group decision.

My marriage would like it if we took a week off, but as discussed before, dragging these things out does sap momentum from the exercise, and I'm very worried about that (more so than my marriage it would seem! ).

Hey guys!
About our options... I'd really appreciate if we could take THIS week off. I have a deadline this week and I think I wouldn't submit a game. I don't think I can vote also, as this weekend is "Mother's day" in Brazil... I know last game I was the one who proposed the two-week turnset that "killed" the game, but as this week is a mess for me and next is a mess for cabert, I can't think another way of addressing this.
Of course you can say "screw FB", but I would like if you didn't!

2 players + me needing a bit more RL time in the next 2 weeks.
That's more than enough to call for a break IMHO.
Yes, sure, cam wants to live on the edge and is willing to risk his mariage for the momentum of this game, but Mrs Cam would come and ally with mine to testify against me in my very likely incoming divorce .
So being totally selfish :
- the game is a "normal" trash round, due friday the 18th in the evening.
- if ovejind can play in those 2 weeks, he is welcome. If he can't, we may want to look for another player. Seeing that we're close to the end, I won't try to recruit anymore, it's a bit senseless.

now, the fact that we have 2 weeks to play this doesn't mean we don't need to discuss.

My guess at crystal ball glancing is that bismarck will hit us.
My guess at crystal ball peering 'level 2' is he'll send a bunch of cavalries, but I need to check if he even has horses .
My guess at crystal baal peering 'level 3' is we should be able to take the hit, provided we draft an army of riflemen and build some cannons.
My guess by peering into the crystal ball from another angle is wang kong will tech like mad and not trade us anything because we traded with his worst enemy.
My guess by peering into the crystall ball from yet another angle is we have coal (although we only have 6 cities, we have a good chunk of land).

SO here comes my strat for the beginning of the next round. I put it in spoiler because it's a bit to much of a direction. FREEDOM! If you have no idea how you would play the round, you may peer into this. If you are just unsure, play it your own way

Spoiler :

0° trade our way to tech parity, as much as possible
1° switch to nationhood. Draft 6 riflemen. Go to free speech after that.
2° settle in the middle of our empire for a better production site
3° tech to steam power. Get coal , get the iron back from cyrus asap. GE rush IW in calcutta. GT in Vienne can wait (we need the theatres before that!). Wall street in calcutta can be useful (it's not cheap to build, so the IW will pay for itself somehow).
4° tech to railroads to improve our land if we have coal. If not, I'll go to physics for artillery.
5° start to build a defensive navy at some point. Not just yet though.
6° If bismarck doesn't attack us, I'll try to get something from the war (by backstabbing the weaker side, preferably bismarck ).
7° we'll see. combustion for oil is a low priority, except if we need a strong navy. I'd try to go relatively straight to rocketry.

 

[KMadCandy]

ojevind i'd miss you if you don't pop in to at least watch and give your thoughts so you have to, sometimes as your schedule allows, please please please? i like seeing your ideas and thoughts that are often so different than mine, and taught me different perspectives, even if neither of us won a best round *giggle*.

cabert told me in another thread that you cannot capture national wonders from the bad guys in a war, only during culture flips. so my worries in that post above don't apply here, which is good. i don't want bismarck's globe theatre, even tho it would save hammers, i want to place GT in a location good for us.

ooooooh boy you guys are making me nervous saying bis is coming after us! i think he has a DP with us in giaur's save, but i haven't rechecked. cyrus is mad at me in my culture game, he refused to talk like forever, more than 25 turns, when i cancelled trades, stinky george made me. then i got him back up from cautious to pleased, and he'll even sign a DP with me, yet he still has too much on his hands. *deep breath* he doesn't like washington either, but at the time that "WHTMOOH" showed up, he hadn't been speaking with me for ages, and he disliked me more. and my power is like, way lower than wash's. and cyrus's is top of the charts by far.

i'm trying to work a DP with a neighbor of his and/or mine to block each side of my territory from him (he's on the other side of the inland sea map), too bad there are no sea monsters in the sea that are friendly with me. hatty will sign one (his direct neighbor), so will bismarck lol: my direct neighbor, deja vu) but they'd block the same side. washington (the one who caused this mess) is friendly but doesn't like me enough for a DP, he'd block my other side. trading him democracy for i forget, economics, i got him to through in adopting Free Speech, which is his own favorite civic, with the trade. so hopefully as that + goes up he'd sign one.

if an AI will actually DoW ya while they have a DP with ya, which i've never seen, i am soooooooooo screwed. i know they'll declare at pleased or friendly if they made the decision to before they got to pleased or friendly, but with a DP seems illogical. there i am naive again, expective logic . i'm sitting here with warriors in most cities, some with archers. at least my iron and bronze are hooked now, and bismarck hooked me up with ponies; already had ellies but never did make jumbos. cavalry #1 is actually in the stable now. if this wasn't an HoF game where i'm bound by honor, i'd sooooooooooo beg one of you to fix it for me! then again, if it wasn't, i wouldn't be so motivated to win hahahaha. *deep breaths*

sorry for going on so long about a game not related to ours. hubby's at work and i hoped typing that would help with some of the nervous energy. we shall see. the game is fun either way. even if he squashes me, i've learned things and won't be devastated, i have had fun and shall try again to prevail!

 

[cabert]

ooooooh boy you guys are making me nervous saying bis is coming after if an AI will actually DoW ya while they have a DP with ya, which i've never seen, i am soooooooooo screwed. i know they'll declare at pleased or friendly if they made the decision to before they got to pleased or friendly, but with a DP seems illogical.

why would it be illogical? you never declared on an AI you had a DP with?
Anyway, it happened to me already. That clever huyna capac had a DP with me and backstabbed me.

 

[pigswill]

Its all very exciting. If Bismark does invade how do we divide Giaur's arm between us?

Thought on avoiding a 'weak' trash round: vote for weakest round, don't select the one with highest score, selelct the save with second (or third) highest score.

 

[KMadCandy]

you never declared on an AI you had a DP with?
Anyway, it happened to me already. That clever huyna capac had a DP with me and backstabbed me.

well, no. i only sign DPs when i think somebody's gonna come after me. and i never think that the guys willing to sign DPs are going to come after me . i've declared on guys that think i'm their best friend, sure. but never somebody i signed a DP with, since signing one in the first place is rather a drastic measure the way i play. oddball, remember?

pigswill - how do we actually compare scores across saves tho? do we use absolute numbers? or do we look at the score relative to the scores of other civs in that particular game? i mean, if my score is 58000 but that's last place and next to last is 4,347,829,565, that's quite different from somebody who's in third place in their world but has a score of i dunno, the range of possiblity. my example is of course not achievable, and was exaggerated to absurdity just to illustrate what i mean.

no offense (i doubt you'd take any but i'm copying cabert ), but i don't hardly any weight on Firaxis score anyway. it's just a number, and based a lot on things that IMO aren't really a reflection of how well you did during the game at the end of the game when it gives your final score; that's even more true of the score showing during the game while the situation is still changing. ooooooh, maybe you mean we vote honestly and the way we normally do, ranking the one we think actually worst as 3 points. but then we play the one that totals up to be second worst?

now i think i get it! you're not talking about game score, you're talking about our scoring system? i think?

@KMadCandy:

This means I will give you my arm if I am wrong. When you are convinced to sth, you use this phrase (at least in my native language).

he directed that to ME. so "we" don't get to divide it, i do, personally. and i divide by ordering him not to cut it off of his body.

 

[cabert]

Its all very exciting. If Bismark does invade how do we divide Giaur's arm between us?

Thought on avoiding a 'weak' trash round: vote for weakest round, don't select the one with highest score, selelct the save with second (or third) highest score.

you mean we should go for a best round, just not taking the very best?

edit

well, no. i only sign DPs when i think somebody's gonna come after me. and i never think that the guys willing to sign DPs are going to come after me . i've declared on guys that think i'm their best friend, sure. but never somebody i signed a DP with, since signing one in the first place is rather a drastic measure the way i play. oddball, remember?

well, you're out of your own world, and you have to take into account the fact that giaur didn't sign the DP to defend against a particular threat. I sign DP when I'm not top power of the world and feel a bit vulnerable.

 

[pigswill]

KMad: Nothing to do with in-game scores but our votes (3pts for worst etc).
You want Giaur's arm, you take it. Letting him keep it is not however an option.

cabert: I mean take the second or third worst, not the very worst.

 

[cabert]

KMad: Nothing to do with in-game scores but our votes (3pts for worst etc).
You want Giaur's arm, you take it. Letting him keep it is not however an option.

don't sell the arm before bismarck actually attacks someone on our continent. It's just me being paranoid for now.

cabert: I mean take the second or third worst, not the very worst.

OK, makes sense. I'd take third worse then (since you're not immune for this round ).

 

[shyuhe]

Congrats Giaur

Do you remember what the AI relations were when Bismarck got his hands full? I'm thinking he's going to go after Brennus who is no longer Cyrus' vassal right now. Bismarck won't go after us because it'll bring Cyrus in against him (which will probably crush him). So... as long as we keep our DP's around, I don't think Bismarck will dare to attack us. If Brennus vassalizes himself to Cyrus before a war declaration though.... things could get nasty.

This is unfortunately going to be my last round, as I am going to be losing access to my desktop at the end of this week. I'll try my best to uh... put up a good looking save

 

[Giaur]

I do not remember. I rarely check that, cause I can defend from anyone. There is possibility that he has full hands on us (small chance), cause he is an assasin, but he has Astro (galeons), there is greater chance that he is annoyed on someone from other continent. I am not sure how much the change in his attitude to us changed his war plans. Best thing we can do is protect our borders. It was to be done anyway.

 

[KMadCandy]

well, you're out of your own world, and you have to take into account the fact that giaur didn't sign the DP to defend against a particular threat. I sign DP when I'm not top power of the world and feel a bit vulnerable.

yup, very odd being out of my own world in this SG. gives quite a different perspective on things, learning a lot, even from the things that don't end up working. not in the way i'd expected to learn, but it's way cool.

meanwhile, in my own little world, cyrus did declare war ... on mansa musa . i love mansa, i hate that it happened to him, but better him than me. poor mansa. he did kind of bring it on himself. everybody was in free religion except for hatty and cyrus (jewish) and mansa (buddhist). when i heard the trumpets i was afraid to look at the screen!

You want Giaur's arm, you take it. Letting him keep it is not however an option.

i don't want his arm, i want to protect him and prevent him losing it! therefore i am relying on technicalities which allow me to do so. just cuz you're all returning officer and stuff doesn't make you "chief surgeon in charge of body parts" buster.

I do not remember. I rarely check that, cause I can defend from anyone. There is possibility that he has full hands on us (small chance), cause he is an assasin, but he has Astro (galeons), there is greater chance that he is annoyed on someone from other continent. I am not sure how much the change in his attitude to us changed his war plans. Best thing we can do is protect our borders. It was to be done anyway.

giaur, stick with me, i'll defend you from our fellow SG players. i cannot however be confident that i can always defend myself from anyone in Civ4. often i can, but when they have more cities and more production capability, and/or a tech advantage, i get less and less confident. i'm not monty after all. i'm reallllllllllly hoping that he's met wang kon and that wang totally pissed him off and that's who he's about to attack. i doubt it, but i really hope so.

if i just magically happen to learn german, starting from not knowing any at all, within the next two weeks, can i call you to get help playing this round? actually i think captain cabert would not approve of that. likely cam too, our faithful co-captain in spirit even if not in actual title due to scheduling constraints and, ummm, potential conflicts of interest between responsibilities here and his relationship with mrs. cam.