For the LAST time - Hitler was a Lefty!

[Finmaster]

Amen Richard! No need to argue about communism with a brainwashed 12-year-old who doesn't know the meaning of the word.

 

[SKILORD]

In a perfect world, both communism and capitalism would be wonderful systems that would put an end to hunger, poverty and the like and ensure that all get to live a good life.

Ayn Rand's Anthem describes an Ideal Communistic system, I hate to have to quote twice on the sma ethread from the same source, but it is a masterpeice ( I like it at least).

 

[SKILORD]

Hitler's statism was effectively socialist

Well, let us examine this, but not with Hitler alone, I am going to now spend a great deal of idle hours researching the Economic policies of Benito Mussilinni, Adolf Hitler, and the longest lasting but oft forgotten Fascist leader, Fransisco Franco.

I'll get youy a response Rich, and it'll be pretty good.

 

[Phantom Lord]

Hitler was a dictator and the NSDAP was not a party in the common sense, at least after the empowerment law was passed. Hitler's home politics had the sole focus to enforce his plans to conquer the world and put the "aryan race" into power.

This has nothing to do with left or right. In fact there is no left or right in a dictatorship, because a dictator's goals are not within the range of political attitudes we've defined to categorize democratic parties.

 

[Stefan Haertel]

Until now, I forgot to add that it's solely the right-wingers who keep defending Hitler until today.

 

[smalltalk]

The German social-democratic party SPD takes pride in her anti-nazi history. Her members were driven into exile, persecuted or silenced. The party was opposing Hitler back in 1933 when he was put into power with the helping votes of the conservative Centrum party.

Some time ago, there was a bit of a fuss here in Germany, when a loudmouth politician accused the Christ-Democratic Party to be the successor of said Centrum Party. Whether this is right or not, I can't say, but obviously Hitler was supported by the right wing parties.

Originally posted by Stefan Haertel
Until now, I forgot to add that it's solely the right-wingers who keep defending Hitler until today.

I can give one counter example: maybe you have heard of this Horst Mahler guy. He was a presumed supporter of the RAF terror group in the 70ies and is now a prominent figure in the neo-nazi scene. But I don't think, this is typical.


BTW, I'm amazed by the level of knowledge shown by some posters, especially AoA and Jelciakajo. The difference between fascism and naziism is often missed. Maybe because of the fact that people tend to use these terms in a rather "unanalytical" manner, as a fuel for flames... Also people seem to be unwilling to differ between communism, stalinism, maoism.

 

[Vote BNP]

Yes , there is a big diffrence between Nazism and fascism.

 

[Peri]

Of course. He would have only been chancellor for 5 yrs.
History would have paid him little heed. There are many many more Germans in history who had a far greater impact on their country. People would have breathed a sigh of relief at his death and never spoken of him again.

 

[Stefan Haertel]

I can give one counter example: maybe you have heard of this Horst Mahler guy. He was a presumed supporter of
the RAF terror group in the 70ies and is now a prominent figure in the neo-nazi scene. But I don't think, this is
typical.

Yes, a friend told me about that once, and this fact was sitting in the remote parts of my memory.
I don't know why he did this, but in any case, I never trust anyone who uses violence to achieve their goals.

But do any of you have doubt that had Hitler died in
1938 he would have been considered one of the great heroes of German history?

He established a dictature, tortured and killed hundreds of thousands of people until 1938 and spat on human rights and democracy. Once he was dead, even if the NSDAP would have remained in power, the Germans would soon have realized that the only goal of his reign was to lead a war.

He would have been a painful memory. He would have been remembered, but not as a hero.

 

[pandora]

Originally posted by smalltalk
The German social-democratic party SPD takes pride in her anti-nazi history. Her members were driven into exile, persecuted or silenced. The party was opposing Hitler back in 1933 when he was put into power with the helping votes of the conservative Centrum party.

Some time ago, there was a bit of a fuss here in Germany, when a loudmouth politician accused the Christ-Democratic Party to be the successor of said Centrum Party. Whether this is right or not, I can't say, but obviously Hitler was supported by the right wing parties.

that is basically right.
even more: i can not give you a detailed example right now, but in the second line of adenauers administration where a lot of freaks who where in charge in the burocracy (and even in very "interesting" positions) til at least the early fourties (some til the end).
burocrats, you know. why to put in knew ones if they could just keep the ones that organized railroad operations without becoming "famous" for it...

 

[Vote BNP]

But in the 1930s, the German people had become somewhat disillusioned with Democracy.

 

[thedirk]

Hitler and Stalin allies? That must be why they spent untold lives and resources trying to destroy each other.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by thedirk
Hitler and Stalin allies?

From 1939 to 1941 certainly, including exchange of military technology adn material, strategic material, cobeligerancy against Poland, assinging spheres of infulence for aggresion, excahnge of military trahing missions, but there was no honor among thieves.

Regarding NASDP, there have some middle and right wing workers parties, and many parites have mifrated or been co-opted from one thing to another.

 

[Peri]

Originally posted by Vote BNP
But in the 1930s, the German people had become somewhat disillusioned with Democracy. They saw that Weimer led them into a horrid recession that Hitler got them out of. The German people longed for the days of the Kaiser when times were good and Germany was a respected world power. Hitler would have been remembered as a hero had he died in 1938 for helping his people come out of the misery of their depression, restoring the powerful German army, ending the debt of Versailles, and increasing German land and territory. I think the German people would have been most appreciate for all this.

Then you are very much mistaken and a sad victim of revisionist history.

 

[SKILORD]

I wouldn't say revisionist, I'd say he just doesn't know anything but the rough of it.

I am still working on my peice on this (hard to find such things for free, since most websites focus on blind hatred. I've found some
excellent books that I can't afford, though)

I also became caught up by the writing of another short story, Political Freedom which drained about 2 days.

 

[smalltalk]

Originally posted by Vote BNP
Hitler would have been remembered as a hero had he died in 1938 for helping his people come out of the misery of their depression, restoring the powerful German army, ending the debt of Versailles, and increasing German land and territory. I think the German people would have been most appreciate for all this.

That depends on your preferences.
If you are after machiavellian power politics and unscrupulous ethics, I will agree. He is your man.

But if you're after a nation of thinkers and poets, then I disagree. Burning your precious books, exiling your best scientists and artists, killing dissidents just blows it. Have a look at Hitlers postures and gestures, listen to his manners of speach, read a chapter of "Mein Kampf" - This man is more than embarassing - he is a disgrace.

 

[Kentonio]

I dont think he's trying to portray Hitler as a good guy, the way I read his point was that when history looks back at leaders who achieve things there is a common tendancy to gloss over some of the less pleasant methods used. Bear in mind also that Hitler would not have had the huge recognition he has now, he would have been a quite obscure German ruler who the majority would never have heard of outside of Germany. Under those circumstances I think it is quite plausible that he could have been considered quite favourably by many people.

 

[Kamilian]

Well, if he would've died or been killed or something before the start of WW2, then MAYBE he would've been hailed as a hero - but in Germany only. In the other countries, there's a possibility that they wouldn't say negative things about him, but that they wouldn't really accentuate the positive either.
Why would he be hailed as a hero by Germans? Why is it even POSSIBLE?
Well, after Versailles, Germany was completely humiliated and the treaty may or may not have been too harsh (maybe it was in fact too lenient? i mean there were plans to completely divide Germany into several separate states), but the German people were certainly humiliated and it fueled their hatred and lust for revenge. This hatred, in turn, gave the nationalists, extreme-rightwingers (such as the German Worker's Party, which owuld turn into the National Socialist German Worker's Party), monarchists, and counterrevolutionaries the support they needed. The German Revolution of 1918 was actually "aborted". It didn't really go all the way - social and land reform was not completed. The entire country was in virtual anarchy from late 1918 to 1919, and even into 1920. The SDP barely was able to hold power - the Bavarian secession was the result of an Independent Socialist Party-led revolution, resulting in a radicalized socialist republic in Munich until the Freikorps, veterans and right-wingers organized into paramilitary, entered the "republic" and crushed the gov't there. Then, in 1920, even they revolted against the Weimar Republic because it was still very weak. While democracy endured on shaky foundations until the 1930s, nationalists were gaining power. THere was a major fear of communists and hyperinflation ravaged the nation. In Austria, one of the main reasons for the popular resentment as because Anschluss, or union, with Germany was strictly forbidden. Both countries were basically destroyed and were no loner respected. The people became disillusioned with the Weimar democracy because the nationalists and other anti-democratic right-wingers scapegoated the Weimar-Republicans as traitors and the real reason for Germany's defeat in WW1. While in the latter half of the 20s, Germany was making a stunning recovery, it was still pretty weak because the Reichstag had proportional representation system - even the tiniest parties could get in if they had any votes, fracturing the Reichstag and forcing the moderates into coalitions. And, like I said, Weimar Germany was making a recovery in the later 20s, but then thje Great Depression happened, hyperinflation returned, and unemplyment soared again. This pushed the gov't to the edge - it resolved to using the Emergency Decree law of Article 48 to maintain power as the Reichstag was blocking a lot of the laws that the executive branch proposed. This turned pre-Nazi Germany from democratic into authoritarian and almost allt he time until its complete collapse, the Weimar Republic used the Article 48 to keep power. By 1932, the coutnry was on the brink of civil war - the nationalist extreme-right vs. the communist extreme-left. The President appointed Hitler as Chancellor because he thought he could be contained that way. He was wrong. Hitler gained full power because the Reichstag was by then almost completely Nazi-controlled and issued the Enabling Act. THe Great Depression almost destroyed the "reforms" that the Weimar Republic had brought in the later half of the 20s, so Germany's infrastructure had to be rebuilt again. Hitler did that, even though he crushed any and all opposition and used extreme racism and nationalist propaganda to "hypnotize" the masses into supporting him. So chances are he would be called a great leader by Germans had he keeled over in 1938. Then, after his death, there would probably be a power struggle because even when he was alive the higher-status gov't and military people bickered among each other and coveted the powers of the office of the Fuhrer. I wouldn't be surprised if, had he died in 1938, Germany would disintegrate into civil war.
No, I am not pro-Nazi, I am not pro-Hitler. I hate both very VERY VERY much. But we can't deny facts - and the facts were that Hitler did temporarily improve the majority of German (well, at least ETHNIC German) life. So it is a big possibility that ethnic Germans (German-Germans, Austrian Germans, and Sudeten Germans) would praise him.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Oppression and murder by Hitler and the nazis was widespread in Germany before 1938. I rather doubt any serious history would made him out to be a hero after the Schliecher, Bredow, and other political murders (outside of the SA leadership) of June 1934. Nor after all German mental patients had been 'euthanized' in the first bit of the Holocaust. Vote BNP, you are such complete infirm ground factually here, with such a provacative assertion that to continue with this line would likely be judged as provocation with ill will, and I am (pleasantly) suprised at the tolerance it has thus far received. A mostly cool headed group of scholars herein.

If AoA were still here, he could read you chapter and verse of each pain, terror, and suffering, inflicted by the nazis before WW2.

 

[polymath]

If Hitler had died in '38 there would have been a resounding sigh of relief from most of the Western European nations.