For those who have seen Matrix Revolutions

[Julien]

=> If you haven't watched it yet and don't want any SPOILER, don't read this.

As Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions are nothing more than one movie in 2 parts, We'll discuss both together here.

My opinion is that the Computer Graphics and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ?

Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly :

1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix.
The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO.

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ?

3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger.

4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide.

5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities".

--------------------------------


Now a few questions of a few details I haven't fully understood.

a) Why does Sati have to go to the subway/underground station ? What is her role in the story ? Is she a kind a "back-up copy" of the non-infected Matrix that the oracle has made for the time when Smith would be deleted ?

b) How could the "train driver" access the world between the Matrix and the real world if it was only a programme inside the Matrix ?

c) Why would the "architect" come to talk with his own "oracle programme" (that he made and controls) at the end ? Is he also merely a part of the Matrix rather than a creator from outside ? It doesn't make sense.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I'm of the thoery that the world with Zion and the machine city etc is actually another matrix, hence Neo being able to use his powers and see the machines even when blinded and hence Smith being able to infect a 'human'.

b) How could the "train driver" access the world between the Matrix and the real world if it was only a programme inside the Matrix ?

This theory works perfectly for that

 

[Cilpot]

I agree with Davo. All evidence points to the real world being a second Matrix

 

[newfangle]

There is no "Matrix inside a Matrix."

Newbs.

Its very simple. Neo is a program, just like the oracle, just like the architect, who serves a purpose. (Smith's purpose is to destroy Neo, and once he achieved this, he was deleted).

Without going into too much detail, the entirety of Revolutions focused on the "choice" of the oracle to end the war. Everything else happened just as in the other 6 matrices, except now there is peace.

 

[Alice]

I have mixed feelings about Revolutions. On one hand, I admire the simplicity with which everything was solved. On the other hand, its easy to do that if you leave unanswered questions. I still don't understand how Neo has "powers" outside the Matrix, for example. (btw, I don't believe in the matrix-within-matrix theory).

As for the other questions (what do they eat/where are the fish/there's not enough metal, etc), I think we don't need all that background information. The story is what's important.

 

[newfangle]

Originally posted by Alice
I still don't understand how Neo has "powers" outside the Matrix, for example.

Because he's not human. Well he is, technically, but the machines designed him.

His final power was the ability to jack-in wirelessly and control the machines (part of his purpose).

 

[Puppeteer]

I enjoyed both the second and third movies when I saw them, then after each one I started analyzing and having problems with them.

I finally realized that these movies aren't really very deep in design or philosophy but are mainly action thrillers with hastily borrowed philosophy and really cool special effects--well, they were really cool the first 25 times we saw them. To analyze them deeper tears them apart quickly.

There could be plenty of questions about the trainman's depot, and I somehow expected the Merovingian to show up at the end somewhere (he, the trainman and Smith are the machines/programs that appear to be outlaws and get away with it), but the movie's world is not that carefully constructed.

If you want to pick on Zion, start with air and water.

They tried to explain Neo's power in the real world as some mysterious connection back to the source; ESP interface or something I guess. The movie kinda asked for a suspension of disbelief there.

The first movie was new and cool and created a new world. The 2nd and 3rd movie exist to make more profit by trying to explain more about the first movie, but the people who really care about how the first movie's world are disappointed by the movies' explanations. This ain't Star Trek.

At least we got to see Persephone again.

 

[Julien]

I agree with Puppeteer.

It's almost pointless to dig deeper into the story to know if Neo is a human or machine, or whatever, as it's mostly a movie made for profit, and the Wachowski brothers probably haven't got the answer to my questions either.

BTW, are they Jewish ? Zion, Seraph, etc. are all related to Judaism. That would explain the proximity of Zion (Israel) to the Machine City, as we saw in Animatrix it was somewhere in Saudi Arabia.

I heard that the Warner Bros. was also created and is still entirely controlled by Jews. Is that true ?

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

Oh yes, and they're secretly poisoning our minds.

 

[cgannon64]

This is after seeing it a few hours ago and going into no extensive theories, just what they show:

I thought the ending was crap. Having only some of humanity saved? It seems a little cheap to me. For one thing, you expect a Savior to fail completely or suceed completely, not somewhere in between. Even if you say that it was a total salvation, because those who chose to stay in the matrix were allowed to, this still seems cheap to me. How can someone stay in the matrix? What, are you going to tap them on the shoulder, tell them the whole world is a fantasy and there is another, real world, and then ask them which they would want to live in?

And why is Smith suddenly the anti-Neo? It seems to me that they just wanted to put a face to the evil in the movie so they hyped him up as a super-powerful anti-Neo. In the first movie he seemed to be the visible voice, face, and power of the machines. Now he is just some super-powerful rebel intent in mindless destruction.

One more thing. Why would the machines suddenly have mercy on the humans? All through the three movies they were merciless killers, who wanted all humans either dead or enslaved. But they suddenly let the humans live just becuase Neo saved the machines from Smith? (Why did Smith have the power to kill the machines anyway? He was a program, couldn't they have stopped him?) The machines are supposed to be truly logical; isn't the most logical thing for them to do is to let Neo save them from Smith, kill him, and then kill all the humans? A dirty trick, yes, but its the best solution to their situation. And why did the Architect say that breaking promises is a human thing? Isn't loyalty a "foolish human emotion" anyway?

And why did they suddenly show the machines as compassionate things and Smith as the only cold, logical program among them? Smith, after all, represented the machines in the first and second movies, and he was the cold, logical one. But then suddenly machines became nice with the people in the train station and the giant face. Oh, don't get me started on the gigantic face...

Oh, and why did the little girl suddenly control the sunrise at the end of the movie? And did the matrix reset or disappear when you saw those cool effects on the floor when she was lying there?

One final complaint: If the movie is a parable for Christianity, it fails miserably. It seems to start out that way - one man and his close followers come to save humanity from the lie they were living. But after this is breaks off. Suddenly the machines - Satan, sin, evil - are holding all the chips, and Neo (Jesus) has to negotiate, almost beg with them? And Satan shows mercy to them? Doesn't work, at all. I shouldn't have expected a parable about Jesus anyway, but being Catholic I couldn't resist.

All in all, I think the ending was cheap, stupid, and confusing. Seems to be that the Wackowski brothers had a great idea but didn't know how to end it.

@ newfangle: Neo is a program? What are you talking about?

 

[newfangle]

@CG- I strongly recommend reading Jeratin's posts in the Revolutions spoiler's thread. It clears up everything (but still leaves me feeling cheated).

 

[Margim]

Reloaded and Revolutions killed the Matrix. Without either of them, the Matrix would have stood alone as a great movie. Now the whole trilogy will slip into b-grade obscurity. (just my opinion - time may prove otherwise, but i doubt it)

 

[cgannon64]

Well it is the Number 1 weekend release of all time, so you KNOW its in b-movie land...

 

[Margim]

Come on, people flocked to see Harry Potter as well. Yeah, that one's going down as one of cinema's all time greats.

 

[SwitchMoO]

Originally posted by Julien
=> If you haven't watched it yet and don't want any SPOILER, don't read this.

As Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions are nothing more than one movie in 2 parts, We'll discuss both together here.

My opinion is that the Computer Graphics and the action was great, but the story is far from perfect. At the end of Matrix Reloaded, I expected a very complex and interesting plot for Revolutions, that could possibly extend to a 4th or 5th episode. Instead, the end has been precipitated by a peace that doesn't make sense. Why would a war that lasted so long come to such an abrupt end just because Neo destroys Smith ? The machines don't have feelings or moral and could very well have made a false promise to Neo and exterminated the humans afterwards. Anyway the victory was certain for them. If they could end this war so easily, why has nobody else tried negotiating before ?

Other things that needed to be thought a bit more properly :

1) Even after seeing Animatrix, we still don't know who built the Matrix, when and why. The architect ? Who is he ? He pretends not to be human, but the Matrix was created after the war between the humans and the machines had started in Animatrix. If Smith could infect the machines, it means that they are also conected to the Matrix.
The fact that Neo get supernatural power in the real world (Zion) and that the Matrix is left to a mysterious human looking creature spoils the realism of the whole story, IMHO.

2) The Matrix world seems so small. Zion and the Machine City seem so near. What happens to the rest of the world ? Is there still nature ? Is everything controlled by the machines ? We never see any ocean. Machines probably can't live in the water if they get shortcircuited by human electric guns. Does that mean that fish and sealife still exist ?

3) If all humans are confined to Zion, which is a closed metallic city, what do they eat ? There are no fields for cereals or vegetables inside Zion. I haven't seen any animal or source of water either. If humans can't go outside Zion safely or the Nature has been destroyed, they should have all died of hunger.

4) Machines supposedly get their energy from the humans in the red capsules, as we have seen in Animatrix. But why would they want to kill people in Zion if they can just capture them to use their energy. Then, as a human life is limited, what will happen to the machines once their human prisoners have all died ? They should try to keep humans under control but free to reproduce in Zion rather than exterminate them, which would amount to suicide.

5) There is not enough iron or metal in general on earth for Machines covering the entire globe - especially if they built such huge "metal cities".

--------------------------------


Now a few questions of a few details I haven't fully understood.

a) Why does Sati have to go to the subway/underground station ? What is her role in the story ? Is she a kind a "back-up copy" of the non-infected Matrix that the oracle has made for the time when Smith would be deleted ?

b) How could the "train driver" access the world between the Matrix and the real world if it was only a programme inside the Matrix ?

c) Why would the "architect" come to talk with his own "oracle programme" (that he made and controls) at the end ? Is he also merely a part of the Matrix rather than a creator from outside ? It doesn't make sense.

It actually makes a lot more sense than you would think:
1)The machines and, eventually the Architect, created the Matrix. It's like asking who made New York...humans did.
2)The whole world isn't machine-filled, but it is completely devestated. AS you seem to have seen the Animatrix, then this should be obvious. Due to the blackening of the sky, no life could exist except in areas where creatures already lived sans light. The Machine city is simply the machine city from 2nd renaissance, 01. Zion mustn't be too far away, but the rest of the world is either desolate or cities taken over by the city. And Neo's powers come from the source...
3)mushrooms and the like, not to mention artificial light would allow the growing of other foods. And all we see of the city is the main chamber, the dock, trinity's room, link's room, council chamber, and gathering chamber. There's likely a heck of a lot more to the city that needs no explaining...it's a sci-fi, not a documentary.
4)They're killing the Zioners b/c they're taking people out of the Matrix. They don't have to worry about losing their food source because they have the humans somehow reproduced artificially (artificial insemination, etc.)
5)They don't cover the entire globe, they just have 01 and perhaps a few other major cities. THe rest of the world is simply desolate.

----------------
The other things you mentioned:
A)She is a program being smuggled into the Matrix from the machine mainfraim, which is the real world mentioned (not referring the actualy, physical existence). She is being brought in because of her 'parent's' 'love' (simply a word). ANd, let me say that love isn't an emotion, so AI or not a machine can love someone. Love is merely complete devotion, truly a one way street (though if you love, you will likely be loved back). But away from tangents.
B)The train driver isn't a 'Matrix' program per se, he is a program from the machine mainframe which is connected to the Matrix, much like a VR game is connected to a computer database.
C)They have true AI (not at all what we call AI), so let him have his fun. I'm sure AI machines like to talk with each other.


And regarding the comment about it being a shallow movie...perhaps you're just looking at it wrong? the obvious theme is about not knowing the real from the not, but there are subtler themes...that regarding choice, and how we choose our future based on our current actions. If we develop as someone with a strong moral sense, then we will inexorably try to save someone's life instead of being lazy and watching the game. Just like Neo had an uninteruptable love for Tinity, so he would save her despite the situation. THere are more, but my friend is more mindful of the subtle themes than I am.

And to make most questions flutter away in the wind....
It's a movie! Suspend your disbelief!

PS, I find it odd that you didn't even mention the fact that humans are VERY inefficient and that the machines would have an easier time getting energy elsewhere.

PPS, no hard feeling, I hope. Just trying to give movies credit where credit is due.

101, 303

 

[superslug]

I don't think the two sequels are going to detract from the greatness of the first movie, anymore than the Star Wars prequels diminish the original trilogy. As a matter of fact, they make me appreciate it more.

 

[Turner]

I was a bit disappointed in the movie. There was so much more that could have been done. I don't really like how they ended the war by Neo killing off Smith. Or as some would say, Smith being deleted by the Matrix because his function was complete. But I don't buy that theory. The Matrix (or architect, whomever) could have deleted smith at any time, if they could have done it at the end.

The "SuperBrawl" wasn't that super. . . the first fight scene in Reloaded where Neo fought all the Smiths was much better. Although there were some cool special effects in the Superbrawl. But the fight in the rain wasn't as good as I thought it was going to be.

Trinity's death was just stupid. She deserved a better death than that. Although in a sense she died exactly how she wanted to - fighting for Neo. I actually expected Morpheus to be the one who died. He time after time sacrificed himself so that Neo could fulfill the prophecy.

I'm rather glad they didn't kill The Kid off. I don't know why, but there's something about him that I liked. I thought the Mjolnir took him out when they crashed through the gate.

Now, the sentinels attack on Zion was pretty cool. That was one part that was hyped up in the trailers that actually lived up to my expectations.

They left the ending wide open for more movies. Not sure how I like this. Perhaps because I'm disappointed with the way the movie ended, I'm glad they did. This gives them the opportunity to go back and do things with it. But this could also go the way of the Terminator or Star Wars. . . too much. I can already see the freed people of Zion going through the Matrix and being missionaries, to save the people of the Matrix. Don't think of them as implied in the movies, but think of them as the door to door missionaries. . . that's how I see them. Such an infection upon the matrix that the machines go to war again because of it.

Kinda disappointed that it wasn't a matrix-within-a-matrix. That had a lot of potential.

And does anyone else see the irony in Smith becoming what he dispised? He said in The Martix:

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.

This is exactly what he became. He was, in the literal sense, a virus infection on the matrix. He took over program after program, and in the end, the cure was Neo. I think that Smith being destroyed was because he destroyed Neo. They were opposites. Yin to Yang. You can't have one without the other. Now I'm not sure of the mechanics on how he was destroyed at the end, but the Oracle had a part in it. Hell, she was the mastermind behind the whole thing. I saw as soon as she 'allowed' Smith to assimlate her what was going to happen.

It does seem that the last half of the movie was just thrown in there to get it done. Almost like they were tired of it, and wanted to be through with it. But it's good that it's over. I'd like to see what else these two can come up with.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

I find it quite annoying when people say that the second two matrix movies weren't as interesting because they were too "philosophical" and not possessing of enough action. Personally I find movies that wanna be like Jackie Chan, but actually take themselves seriously to be a disgrace to film.

Now on topic, I haven't seen the movie, but was stupid enough to read this thread. CRAP.