Foreign Policy: WePlayCiv

[Maga_R]

They told us what was their deal. Beta was complaining how RB tricked them and did not gave them what they promised. They both attack Germans and WPC get 5-6 northern cities. Where they got none

Hmm, I do not think it is likely RB has broken their explicit agreement with WPC. Looks like there is more to the story .

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, I was surprised too, but this is what Beta told me.

He was like: "Now RB start to read our agreement in different way than when we signed it with the excuse that they have no time to wait for this war to go any longer, because one of their neighbors is arming"

I asked if there was no a way to RB still do the fighting, but let WPC actually capture those cities, where Beta said: sadly they did not considered this possibility, despite we had units there, nor they even razed those cities, so we can replant them and still have the land. I advised him to ask for what they were promised. He asked how is this possible if city gifting is banned and I told him they can just declare war to RB and take those cities, to which Beta sounded pleasantly surprised how easy this could be and he said he will speak with his team about this. Seems it was not accepted by either WPC team or RB as idea

 

[YossarianLives]

Very interesting. Poor WPC is getting walked all over. I wish we could find a way to use this to our advantage, but they are just too weak to really help us against RB.

 

[whb]

Any way we can encourage them to leak it to CivFr... let them know RB are not to be trusted to honour their deals...

 

[Sommerswerd]

I hope they would have broadcast this to everyone by now.

 

[2metraninja]

This is what WPC had sent us some month or two ago:

Greeting to our good friends of CFC,

I would like to thank personally for the great chats we have had with you guys.
It is important to have smooth lines of communications open.

Also our people are most pleased with the wonderful trade we have been able to conduct between our nations.

On this warm note, we would like to propose an extension to our NAP contract.
We are thinking up to turn 200 would be suitable.
Could you agree with this proposal?

Best regards,
Tatu of WPC

I say we confirm our NAP to t200. This is where their NAP with Uciv ends and we would not be able to do anything anyway earlier than this because we will be in deadly fight with RB. And most probably CivFR too.

 

[2metraninja]

This was what we spoke with Ambassador Proviisori before even the war started:

2metraninja: we were discussing and guessing, but you can shed a light on it. do you have explicit city dividing agreement with RB or it is "whoever takes what, it is his"
...
Proviisori: We have a land division deal. It was one of the clauses we wanted when recruiting assistance.
2metraninja: that is OK, because with multitude knights and maces, RB would be in better shape to take quicker more cities
Proviisori: That is right

and this is what we spoke with Proviisori today:

2metraninja: hi there
Proviisori: Hello!
2metraninja: hey
2metraninja: hows things in the game?
2metraninja: lately a lot of discussion is circulating around the teams
Proviisori: Slow for now, because the war has ended.
2metraninja: and the major impression is you got cheated by RB for not getting any cities from the war
2metraninja: can you share details if there was written agreement between you and RB about which cities you will receive and what are each team pbligations?
2metraninja: obligations*
2metraninja: because if there was such written agreement and RB broke their word, that can have quite negative impact on team RB in this game
2metraninja: if it is known
Proviisori: Discussion about the spoils of war is ongoing, so I would not comment on that at this time.
2metraninja: ah, OK, I see
Proviisori: Lets see how it ends and then we will know
2metraninja: still, they played in bad faith I believe
2metraninja: now Poly drafting rifles may have made RB more accomodating
Proviisori: Yes, and German team's plan to kamikaze against us and leave a clear path to RB didn't help.
2metraninja: btw, we got message in the APT site that you have sent us in-game-message last turn, but when we logged to the game, there was game crash and we could not see the message. can you please repeat the message here?
Proviisori: I guess Beta sent it and there is no mention of it in the forum, so I don't know about the contents.
Proviisori: My guess would be that it is about giving the units to you...
2metraninja: oh, how is the plan for this?
2metraninja: what count and types they are gonna be??
2metraninja: and did you got wines of your self, as we see the deal was cancelled
Proviisori: Yes, we have wines hooked up.
Proviisori: Beta knows better about the unit composition. When considering the unique traits of our nation, I guess archery units would be desirable. Good for updating to gunpowder units, while retaining the benefits.
2metraninja: some agg spears with 5 point unused experience would be very useful too
Proviisori: OK, I would recommend sending your preference to Beta directly.
2metraninja: great

 

[Sommerswerd]

That does not sound so good to me. He seems much more guarded than usual. I wonder if their team is going through some internal strife? Sometimes this results in a moritorium on diplo... and no one is allowed/inclined to talk about what is going on in the team.

 

[2metraninja]

Out of a sudden, Beta - the captain of team WPC had sent me a PM. It reads roughly (it is on WPC site and I cant access it from here):

We see you and your allies are winning the war with RB and that makes us happy. We know that Apolyton are advancing in the North ex-German lands. We know we cant speak from position of power, but we must move too, as this is our only chance to get some lands and those lands belong to us. Wanting to hear your thoughts.

First, it is too late I think, as MZ took 2 of the last 3 ex-German cities and is already bordering WPC, so there is only 1 city left. There is no chance WPC can take something from MZ with force. Even the opposite - now I think MZ can just go ahead and start to capture WPC cities. Which will be very bad situation for us, as we will be left without piece of WPC in this case until t200 comes, WPC will be no more.

If Beta are asking us to use our political connections and influence to make Poly give them cities, I think this is not neither possible to convince MZ do this, nor in our interest to use our "good points" and risk making our ally non-cooperative or outright angry at us, just to help as it seems hopeless at this point civ.

I of course appreciate that WPC gave us intelligence info and archers during the First Zulu war and the fact they were treating us as friends and giving us info of their future plans with RB. But so much water have ran under the bridge and they screwed things in each and every possible way. They started a war with Germans which was nearly impossible to win and as result they created a power and political vacuum in the region, which RB was quick to conveniently fill. Because of this early war, RB had the comfort of expanding and claiming land like mad, while having 2 weak neighbors to choose which one to ally and which one to destroy. Again, reading back trough this thread, we knew what will happen even since 100 turns ago:

Well, with the WPC attack appearing to be stalling, the only thing this war has accomplished is knocking WPC and the Germans out of the running for victory.

The war between WPC and the Germans can probably be considered a failure on WPCs part, and regentman is most likely very correct in his prognosis that both teams are out of the race for who will win the game. RB is very much in a strong position still.

I'd like to try to walk the fence as far as being good friends to both teams. If this just isn't possible though and we have to pick a team to favor I want it to be the one that can best help us keep RB in check (not just power wise but also being willing to oppose RB when the time is right).

Ever since, WPC was talking about attacking RB, helping those who will fight them, but what they did?

[03.12.2012 г. 16:00:18] Dimo Neykov: ok, lets talk some more real stuff. when we speak of geopolitics, what are the sentiments of possible joint action against RB if we see they start to become monsters?
[03.12.2012 г. 16:02:30] Tatu: We see it as a good option. When looking at the positions of the civs, they are the next source of friction after the German team.
[03.12.2012 г. 16:03:15] Tatu: Opening multiple fronts is essential for taking down strong nations efficiently.
[03.12.2012 г. 16:05:08] Tatu: Of course it depends how they treat us, if we want to explore this option sooner or later.

They immensely helped RB by joining them against the Germans. Germans split their forces like 2:1 and sent the 2/3 against WPC instead of effectively stop RB for long.

Back then we were somewhat happy that at least RB wont get ALL the Germans cities as they were promised to WPC 6 Germans cities. But obviously, WPC failed in this too. They could not take those cities with force (which can be understandable and excused), but they failed to make the diplomatic efforts and moves to force RB to give them what had to be theirs. So RB ended with ALL the German cities, fighting only 1/3 of the German army. Not helping us much. Even exactly the opposite.

Then we ask WPC how they feel about RB and they tell us they feel cheated and not happy with RB. We tell them we will attack Rb and ask them if they can do something about it. They say: "might be". And finally, when we jump at RB, we ask them simple thing - to stop the happy resource they provide to RB. And they fail to do even this. And since RB are fighting for already 10 turns, WPC had the time to think of this and actually get their units together and attack RB taking their supposedly rightfully theirs German almost empty cities.

Now is too late for whatever to be done I think.

 

[Calis]

Actually they just waited to see, who will gain the upper hand in this war. Now that they realize, it's the coalition, they come and try to gather some of the remains. And they have the guts to call the lands THEIR lands.

Funny guys.

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, as sad as it is, they played bad on both pure game level and diplomatic level and ruined all future prospects they had and we must start to think of them as food, rather than friends.

Still? What should I do? What to tell Beta?

 

[2metraninja]

Here is the original text of the message:

It would appear that you and your allies are having success against Realms beyond. It warms my heart.

However, it is also clear that Apolyton is now moving across the old German lands that were once part of our goals in the last war.

I think our - WPC - only hope of getting any land is to move in now and get what cities we can. We obviously cannot negotiate from a position of strength, however, I would appreciate your thoughts.

What we should say?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Our response (a suggestion)

Hi Beta,

Everyone at CFC was glad to hear that we still have the good affections of our WPC friends. Our team was glad that you reached out to us to give us your feelings about the course of the War. I can understand if you are still recovering for the devastating War against the Germans, and unable to give military support, but any information that you might have to help us in this effort is greatly appreciated.

It it indeed true that Poly with their powerful military is attacking RB and obviously they are claiming the cities that RB captured from the defeated and extinct German not too long ago. It is also obvious to everyone that many of the German cities they are capturing are on the border with WPC and may clearly be among those cities that RB so despicably cheated WPC out of. May those cheating lying b@stards die bloody and lie in shallow graves to have eyes eaten out by crows so that they can't find their way to the afterlife and wander in purgatory forever.

What perspective we can offer on the situation is great indeed, because it was exactly the same situation that caused War between us and CivFr and nearly brought both of us to ruin. We invested and planned for many turns and used many resources to overcome the Zulus that invaded us, only to have CivFr come to us, when the War was obviously won and lay claims to the cities that we fought and won in glorious battle. CivFr based their claim on the flimsy excuse that they themselves had intended to capture the cities some time before we did.

Obviously this was unacceptable to us, and it caused us to declare War on them. I think some clear comparisons can be made between that situation and this one, so our advice is to proceed cautiously. On a related matter, we were under the impression that WPC was in too much of a weakened state from the last War to do any fighting? Is that not the case? What strength of forces do you have that you are seriously contemplating a War with Apolyton?

Your CFC friends

The goal is to get as much info and perspective on their palns as possible...as 2metra says, taking German cities without all out War with Poly is unlikely, and I can't see what benefit there is for us trying to intervene on WPC's behalf... but maybe we can get some units or info out of them that can be put to good use.

 

[2metraninja]

Great message!

I say we send it immediately. Turns of events are quick too.

As we saw, WPC declared war to RB and took 1 city from them under MZ's nose. And MZ might have right that RB is participating in this. Thinking now, I suspect WPC will try the same with us. I was seeing WPC worker roading to one of the RB cities in our sector and last turn I saw RB moved out 2-3 units from this city and wondered why Too bad we did not kept our 2 knights in WPC lands, we could had taken those empty cities if we play before WPC. Or at least force RB to not leave empty cities for WPC.


It will be good move on WPC side to take those cities. I think we already made them a sentence and we just wait for the NAP to run off anyway.

 

[Sommerswerd]

That was the point of my letter... To say to them "We have already declared War for this type of shenanigans" so that they are well aware that we will not support it from them... Hopefully this will slow them down a little in their plans.

 

[2metraninja]

I have sent them the message btw.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Since WPC will probably be dead soon this may not matter, but it is worth noting for the record that they are NAP breakers, so obviously we would never want to make any kind of alliance or agreement with them unless we were getting our payment up front.

 

[2metraninja]

I did told WPC that we believe CP will attack them and we proved right. I met Beta in other game and he asked me if we can help them somehow, to which I said we cant. He them went on and said it will be relieve for him, as he was pretty much the player-team in the last few weeks/months and he knows each thing must have his logical end. He said he will be happy we to have their cities than CP, but I told him we have NAP, so we cant attack them. He said he will declare war to us and to Poly and Uciv (in this order) so we are no longer bind with NAP and we can attack their cities. I did not asked for that, but I said "Thank you" and asked why. He said it is about teams who their team respected trough the whole game most. WPC (supposedly Beta) did played their turn but we got no declaration, so maybe he changed his mind at the end. He said also he will send us some workers and probably a Great General, but we does not see him yet.

 

[2metraninja]

In other news, we got declared by WPC. Seems they do want we to be able to get back at least the city we allowed them to settle in our territory. The other WPC city we wanted to control will be taken this turn from CP.