Forget the current situation. Should the modern state of israel been formed? Where?

greekguy said:
MAD. Israel has nukes, so Russia ain't firing anything at them any time soon.
Well, it was hypothetical, but I don't think Israel's nukes can hit that far. I could be wrong though.


It was the Pals who rejected the UN Partition Plan, which essentially meant war was the only option. They didn't declare war, but their "protectors" in the Arab World were the aggressors in '48.
Or maybe they wanted a different Partition Plan?

well, i guess that's just a difference of opinion. :)
Yes, I agree. So would you advocate British citizenship on the basis of subscription to Anglicanism?

No, i'm not saying there were more Jews than Pals in 1948. I'm saying a huge percentage of the overall Jewish population was located in Palestine in 1948. Here are the demographics from wikipedia:

Year Total Muslim Jewish Christian Other
1922 752,048 589,177(78%) 83,790(11%) 71,464(10%) 7,617(1%)
1931 1,036,339 761,922(74%) 175,138(17%) 89,134(9%) 10,145(1%)
1945 1,764,520 1,061,270(60%) 553,600(31%) 135,550(8%) 14,100(1%)
not sure if I am reading this correctly, but it seems to me that the Muslims were 78% in 1922 and the Jews were 11%. Then in 1945 the Muslims were 60% and the Jews were 31%. I think what this is saying is that 31% of people in Palestine during 1945 were Jewish, not that 31% of Jews lived in Palestine. If that's the case, it was due to Jewish immigration in order to establish Palestine as a Jewish homeland. Can you post a link?
 
John HSOG said:
I think that the Israelites are far safer and secure with their own nation.
Possibly. But there is a difference between biblical Israelites and Israelis.
 
mrgenius said:
Well, it was hypothetical, but I don't think Israel's nukes can hit that far. I could be wrong though.

i think they can hit. the distance between Southern Russia and Israel can't be more than 2,000 miles.



Or maybe they wanted a different Partition Plan?

the UN Security Council approved it and so did Israel (even though they wouldn't have the entire British Mandate).


Yes, I agree. So would you advocate British citizenship on the basis of subscription to Anglicanism?

If the UK wants to grant automatic citizenship to all Angelicans I wouldn't really care. However, if they said you had to be Angelical to immigrate to the UK, i would have an issue with that.


not sure if I am reading this correctly, but it seems to me that the Muslims were 78% in 1922 and the Jews were 11%. Then in 1945 the Muslims were 60% and the Jews were 31%. I think what this is saying is that 31% of people in Palestine during 1945 were Jewish, not that 31% of Jews lived in Palestine. If that's the case, it was due to Jewish immigration in order to establish Palestine as a Jewish homeland. Can you post a link?

that's correct, the chart says 31% of the people in Palestine in 1945 were Jewish. However, I can't think of any other places (except for maybe NYC) that had a population of half a million Jews in 1945. thus, Palestine had the most number of Jews in a defined area in 1948 and was the logical choice to create a Jewish Homeland.
 
greekguy said:
i think they can hit. the distance between Southern Russia and Israel can't be more than 2,000 miles.
Yes, but I meant to the most important cities like Moscow. I guess it would just depend how much Russia wanted to take them out.

the UN Security Council approved it and so did Israel (even though they wouldn't have the entire British Mandate).
Two sides can decide something against the wishes of the third side, that doesn't make it correct, fair, or even useful. When there are compromises, usually parties try to sit down and work out a solution that all sides can agree on. The Arab states attacked before that could happen, but that doesn't mean it was the Palestinians' fault.
If the UK wants to grant automatic citizenship to all Angelicans I wouldn't really care. However, if they said you had to be Angelical to immigrate to the UK, i would have an issue with that.
Alright. I'll leave this point here.

that's correct, the chart says 31% of the people in Palestine in 1945 were Jewish. However, I can't think of any other places (except for maybe NYC) that had a population of half a million Jews in 1945. thus, Palestine had the most number of Jews in a defined area in 1948 and was the logical choice to create a Jewish Homeland.
But that's the whole point! Palestine had the greatest number of Jews in a defined area because of zionism and the idea to make Palestine a Jewish homeland! The Jews didn't immigrate before zionism, they immigrated there in order to create a Jewish state. This is circuitous reasoning. (Like the argument that God promised the land to Israel. "God promised it to us, just like it says in our bible, which us Jews wrote.")
 
No, but in countries that are civilized (as you claim the Arabs not to be) there is the rule of law, including the CRIME of terrorism (which is not war, unless I am mistaken about Israel's laws).
There is also the small legal matter of authorizing the use of deadly force when required to preserve the life of yourself, nearby civlians or your fellow officers. Blowing a rocket-barge up from the air is hardly extrajudicial assasination, it's a nation-scale case of shooting a deranged lunatic with a gun pointed randomly into a busy street.

One could use the same argument: if Israel does not support the occupation and slaughter of Palestinian lands and people, perhaps they should stop silently supporting their government. Maybe they should refuse to pay taxes, or contribute to the economy, or use their land for any military purposes. Otherwise, they support the IDF and are thus target.

Your reasoning, not mine.
The point is that we hardly percieve the Israeli side as the agressors, mostly around areas like Gaza we're we have pulled out entirely, and still continue to recieve rocket barrages and agressive actions despite having completed our side of the bargain. Unlike Hamas, our government doesn't claim it wants to destroy the Palestinian Entity, but rather negotiate with it for a permanent peaceful settlement, however we're being forced into retaliation by repeating rocket barrages.

You might have a point there, but I am confused: was his wife an Arab Israeli or Jewish? If she was Jewish, I doubt she would allow him to marry her to harm Israel (if she was Arab Israeli I could imagine that).
He was from the town of Nablus under PNA control, she was an Arab-Israeli given to him by the family as part of the muslim tradition of the father deciding on his daughter's marriage. Islamic property rights extend to women, apparently.

So where was the water supply for Israel before it seized the Golan? Why didn't the Syrians poison Israel in the previous wars?
They did try it, in fact, back in 1964 (three years BEFORE the war), the Syrians brought along heavy engineering equipment to try and deflect the flow of the water of the Banias river, which feeds into the sea of Galilee, Israel's main fresh water reservoir, so that it wouldn't flow into Israel, effectively leaving us all down here to die from the ensuing thirst. The project was eventually abandoned due to multiple incursions from Israel and Syria into each other's territory and eventually the Six Day war, which placed that area firmly into Israeli control.

We may be paranoid, but that paranoia is hardly unrooted.

Israel built it, it can take it down. So if I build my house on your property, then you ask me to take it down, you will be happy with "No, I already built it, it's too expensive"? Maybe it is expensive and difficult to dismantle, but that is not the Palestinians' problem.
It is physically impossible to remove a city of 25,000 inhabitants without crippling your own economy and putting an impossible strain on your welfare system. It simply cannot be done, unless you're suggesting we undertake a Russian "repopulation" program which simply means denying people of their most basic property rights and separating them from all their possessions while we move them to the West.
Instead of insisting over a certain piece of land which cannot be moved, what is the problem with accepting an equal stretch of land somewhere else in a less populated area, where the move will be faster and easier? The areas we're talking about consist of less than 3% of the Palestinian demand.

So when they were not taken seriously, the Irgun said, "Oh, it's alright, we warned them and they didn't listen. They can die now and we will have no moral qualms."? With or without warning, they showed the same disregard for human life as terrorists today.
No, they didn't, and the fact they called ahead to give warning is living proof of that fact. Had they truly had no care for human lives, they'd simply gone ahead and blown up the Hotel without letting anyone know what was happening. This is also, to the best of my opinion, the only action anyone brings up when talking about the Irgun's "terrorist" tendencies, which hardly compares to today's numbers!


I have never been there. But from wikipedia:
Taking the word of an internet encyclopedia over that of a local who admits there's a small minority of Druze loyal to Syria, but that the vast majority isn't doesn't make your point any stronger. It just makes Wikipedia biased, and doesn't change reality one bit - the majority of the inahbitants are loyal to Israel. They serve in the IDF, and vote for the Israeli Parliament. They use our welfare system and for the overwhelming majority, they don't support the terrorists trying to destroy us. After all, it was the Lebanese Hezzbollah that shot multiple rockets into Arab Villages as well in the Galilee region, killing multiple civilians, without even appologizing... we're in this boat together, and you're not going to convicnve me the Israeli-Arabs are second-class citizens when they're clearly not.
 
The point is that we hardly percieve the Israeli side as the agressors, mostly around areas like Gaza we're we have pulled out entirely, and still continue to recieve rocket barrages and agressive actions despite having completed our side of the bargain. Unlike Hamas, our government doesn't claim it wants to destroy the Palestinian Entity, but rather negotiate with it for a permanent peaceful settlement, however we're being forced into retaliation by repeating rocket barrages.
(bolded mine) This is it: the Palestinians do. And whatever your government "claims" does not make it true. I'm not sure you understand the motivation for the majority of Palestinian resistance: it is not just Gaza and West Bank that Israel has taken from them, it is the ENTIRE part of what is today's Israel.
They did try it, in fact, back in 1964 (three years BEFORE the war), the Syrians brought along heavy engineering equipment to try and deflect the flow of the water of the Banias river, which feeds into the sea of Galilee, Israel's main fresh water reservoir, so that it wouldn't flow into Israel, effectively leaving us all down here to die from the ensuing thirst. The project was eventually abandoned due to multiple incursions from Israel and Syria into each other's territory and eventually the Six Day war, which placed that area firmly into Israeli control.
I have not heard of that; can you link me to that information? It does not appear on Wikipedia's page of that river.
[/QUOTE]
It is physically impossible to remove a city of 25,000 inhabitants without crippling your own economy and putting an impossible strain on your welfare system. It simply cannot be done, unless you're suggesting we undertake a Russian "repopulation" program which simply means denying people of their most basic property rights and separating them from all their possessions while we move them to the West.
Instead of insisting over a certain piece of land which cannot be moved, what is the problem with accepting an equal stretch of land somewhere else in a less populated area, where the move will be faster and easier? The areas we're talking about consist of less than 3% of the Palestinian demand.[/QUOTE]
I think for most Palestinians, it really isn't about the land itself. It's the idea that their land could be taken from them. (And thus I really don't understand why Israel is so set on that piece of land either.)
[/QUOTE]
No, they didn't, and the fact they called ahead to give warning is living proof of that fact. Had they truly had no care for human lives, they'd simply gone ahead and blown up the Hotel without letting anyone know what was happening. [/QUOTE] If no one left, how is it different? They still decided "Well, we warned them. Go."
This is also, to the best of my opinion, the only action anyone brings up when talking about the Irgun's "terrorist" tendencies, which hardly compares to today's numbers!
Assassination of Lord Moyne:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Moyne#Assassination
Deir Yassin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre (disputed)
But you're correct, there are far fewer in the history of Jewish terrorits acts than Palestinians. The reasons are that Jewish groups accomplished their goals very rapidly and when they did, they dissolved and were integrated into the IDF (which many Palestinians would probably consider terrorist).

Taking the word of an internet encyclopedia over that of a local who admits there's a small minority of Druze loyal to Syria, but that the vast majority isn't doesn't make your point any stronger. It just makes Wikipedia biased, and doesn't change reality one bit - the majority of the inahbitants are loyal to Israel. They serve in the IDF, and vote for the Israeli Parliament. They use our welfare system and for the overwhelming majority, they don't support the terrorists trying to destroy us. After all, it was the Lebanese Hezzbollah that shot multiple rockets into Arab Villages as well in the Galilee region, killing multiple civilians, without even appologizing... we're in this boat together, and you're not going to convicnve me the Israeli-Arabs are second-class citizens when they're clearly not.
No, he did not say he's a local, he said he's been there. That is not at all the same thing. I would value the information from an encyclopedia over that of a traveler. Had you read the rest of my post (or subsequent ones) you would have understood my argument as to why "the majority of its citizens are loyal to Israel." Before Israel captured it, there were very few, if any, Jews. After, Israel encouraged settlement. Now, the Jews outnumber the Arabs, but that does not make it anymore rightfully theirs. And I'm confused as to what Lebanon has to do with it?
 
(bolded mine) This is it: the Palestinians do. And whatever your government "claims" does not make it true. I'm not sure you understand the motivation for the majority of Palestinian resistance: it is not just Gaza and West Bank that Israel has taken from them, it is the ENTIRE part of what is today's Israel.
So you basically say that since they think we've taken everything and hence have no right to exist, blowing us up is justified in their eyes?
Then what exactly is our interest in pulling back if we're going to be taking fire regardless of what we do?

I have not heard of that; can you link me to that information? It does not appear on Wikipedia's page of that river.
Wikipedia rarely covers all your bases. It's a good starting point, but nothing more.
Syrian history, last paragraph.
Turning Water into Fire - the Jordan river as a hidden factor in the Six-Day War, paragraphs starting from the titles "LAYING THE FOUNDATIONS FOR A WATER CONFRONTATION: 1960-1964" until "TURNING WATER INTO FLAMES 1965-1967".

I think for most Palestinians, it really isn't about the land itself. It's the idea that their land could be taken from them. (And thus I really don't understand why Israel is so set on that piece of land either.)
Israel is so set on it because it's already populated. Removing 25,000 people from a city is a logistics challenge that is simply impossible to succeed in. Just take a look at the bloody mess Katrina left for the remaining people in New Orleans and to a lesser extent the countryside in Louisiana, and take in mind that those people wanted to be evacuated...

If no one left, how is it different? They still decided "Well, we warned them. Go."
You honestly don't see the difference?

Assassination of Lord Moyne:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Moyne#Assassination
Deir Yassin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre (disputed)
But you're correct, there are far fewer in the history of Jewish terrorits acts than Palestinians. The reasons are that Jewish groups accomplished their goals very rapidly and when they did, they dissolved and were integrated into the IDF (which many Palestinians would probably consider terrorist).
Or, you know, it could also have something to do with the fact that we didn't resort to terrorism as a default but as a last resolve and prefered negotiations and dialogue over detonating bomb packs inside pizza parlors, and that we educated our children to be free thinking spirits even in face of the attrocities of the second world war and other hardships the Jewish communites endured instead of preaching death as an honorable solution to problems and the burning of infidels as a religious commandment.

No, he did not say he's a local, he said he's been there. That is not at all the same thing. I would value the information from an encyclopedia over that of a traveler. Had you read the rest of my post (or subsequent ones) you would have understood my argument as to why "the majority of its citizens are loyal to Israel." Before Israel captured it, there were very few, if any, Jews. After, Israel encouraged settlement. Now, the Jews outnumber the Arabs, but that does not make it anymore rightfully theirs. And I'm confused as to what Lebanon has to do with it?
A) I said it. I'm the local. I live in Israel, and have been there quite frequently. Lovely piece of country.
B) The Arab-Israeli population is roughly equal if not very slightly smaller in various areas around the Galilee. It's true that there is a vast jewish electoral college in the general area, however demographically speaking it is widely believed by experts here that this condition will change within two or three generations.

And Lebanon has everything to do with this. The loyalty of the Israeli-Arabs doesn't stem from their religious beliefs, more than it does out of the fact that our neighbouring arab countries aren't exactly nicer to them than they are to the Jewish inhabitants.
 
No i shouldnt, "fake" states never work
 
Jews were treated fine in west germany as much as i know. Dont know about east, but to take the land away from who owned it before and create a new country would just cause more problems in the long term.

No, that's not right. The Jews were killed in the largest genocide in history in Germany. If you think that the Jews were "treated fine," then I hope that you never gain any sort of power. Now, presumably you're talking about how the Jews were treated in West Germany after the war. It's true that the holocaust ended along with the "thousand year reich," but nobody knew what was going to happen. The Jews had ever reason to believe they would continue to be persecuted: supporters of Hitler remained, totalitarian communism was rapidly replacing fascism in many parts of Europe, and Europeans had been persecuting them more than a thousand years. It's no wonder that they wanted to leave Europe.

The only way to guarantee the safety of the Jews was to create a country of their own. Germany would have been the worst place imaginable for this new country. The Jews had no claim to Germany whatsoever; Israel would have seemed a punitive measure imposed on Germany. German resentment of the Jews would have continued, possibly even increasing. Considering that, at the time, the Soviet Union was in the process of gobbling up small and weak countries, just about nobody would have been satisfied with an Israel in Germany.

The most logical place to put the country was in the Jewish homeland. The only previous Jewish nation in history had been there, until they were invaded and dispersed by the Romans. There was no other country there at the time, only a British colony. Nobody asked the Arabs living there to leave, but they decided that they would rather return as the victors of a war to drive Israel into the sea. They lost.
 
It's no wonder that they wanted to leave Europe.
I Suppose then, Poland has a legitimate claim to want to leave Europe as well. Or at least not be stuck between Germany and Russia. Plus maybe someplace where the weather doesn't suck. Let's Give them Brazil. You can't move peoples and nations around for convienience

The only way to guarantee the safety of the Jews was to create a country of their own.
Really, think about how many Jews have died in terrorist attacks, in multiple wars etc etc. in Israel. Now think about how many have faced that in Germany. Or New York. I find it very strange that placing them in the most dangerous place for them to live is the only way to guarantee there safety.

The most logical place to put the country was in the Jewish homeland. The only previous Jewish nation in history had been there, until they were invaded and dispersed by the Romans.
The most logical place would be from the land of those who supported Israel. If America was so dead set that they needed a homeland, we could have given them say, Maine. But the cost always seems smaller when someone else pays it.

We're more of a state than Palestine ever was.
Your still less a state then Yugoslavia ever was.

Lastly I find it odd that Peoples who suffer genocide and oppression today recieve less support for Autonomy then those who suffered it 60 years ago. Uighurstan and Tibet recieve no support despite facing those things today. The Kurds, even though we're in a prime position to do so now, recieve no support for their own state.
 
Back
Top Bottom