Forum Game - mastering Monarch

[Arcanior]

I've often followed forum games on here and tried to integrate ways of thinking I encounter here into my games, but I noticed I often find myself on turn 100 or 150 with a decidedly suboptimally built empire... So I figured I'd post a game on here in short turnsets to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

I'm playing Monarch on a Big and Small map (I usually do Continents, but I've gotten a bit tired of the predictability of it). Random leader is Hammurabi (AGG, ORG).

It seems a bit like a weird start - only seafood, while our starting techs are TW and Agg. I'll definitely move my Warrior SW, but I don't expect to find more food, since we have three seafood items already. I'm also doubting the strategy of first building a Worker, since he won't have much to do for the first turns, and I'd be halting my city growth for nothing, essentially.

So what I'm thinking is: Warrior SW, unless he finds more food or anything else very interesting, SiP. Then, start research on Fishing, and (again, unless we have other interesting resources), start building a Warrior.

Thoughts?

Edit: Image link was broken, should be fixed now.
Edit2: Uploaded save.

 

[Anysense]

Definitely warrior SW first. It reveals...

Spoiler :

Wet wheat! So its worker first. Useful techs would be BW and fishing; I think BW first because you won't have enough production to build boats quickly without BW, anyway.

 

[gramm87]

I'd do warrior 1SW... What about settling 1SE? We give away a food, but we win at least 4 cottage tiles...

 

[Arcanior]

Nice! SiP and worker it is. I choose Mining as a starting tech, going into BW.

@gramm87: 1SE is appealing, since it gives us fresh water access and the extra cottageable tiles. Though I'm not convinced of their worth in our current situation... Also, if I suppose that the islands above are small and hardly settleable, I'd essentially be killing the clam. If there was a river, I might have done it, but as it is, I think I'll settle in place.

I will have a few "lost" worker turns before BW kicks in, though. I suppose I can use those building some roads where they might be needed later on - but first things first.

 

[Arcanior]

Turnset: T0-8. Settling and researching Mining, initial exploration. Scouting for second city spot.

T1: I start exploring. A new forest grows SE of Babylon, just outside our BFC. I go SW, since to the SE there appears to be jungle, which will not be very settleable until IW.
T2: Coast and desert to the south, and a floodplain SW. Looks promising!
T4: Riverside pigs 4SW of our capital! I might settle my second city somewhere around them.
T5: Border pop and we find riverside spices to the west. The northern land appears not to have been islands, so I could've settled 1SE without killing the clams. Oh well. I might share them later on.
T6: More spices... 3SW of Babylon starts to look like a very promising spot. 2 riverside spices in there, riverside pigs, and possibility to share the wheat of Babylon.
T8: Mining finishes.

In conclusion, my second city will most likely be 1NE of the pigs.
As for research path, after BW, Fishing will be inevitable, I think. But that's still a couple of turns away...
I suppose once my Worker is done, I immediately switch to a Warrior? I won't be able to build WB's until I finish Fishing.

 

[Anysense]

I doubt I would ever build those cottages; non-riverside cottages without financial are hardly ever worth it.

 

[gramm87]

I doubt I would ever build those cottages; non-riverside cottages without financial are hardly ever worth it.

True, it would take what, 10+20+30 turns until it beats coastal tiles? I guess the capitol should focus on GPP then, I think it can work 6GPP and stagnate, while the other cities try to work riverside cottages and luxury resources... CoL+Monarchy for happiness?
I'm just trying to help but probably better players have better ideas

 

[Arcanior]

T8-15: More exploration and building our Worker. Scouting for city spots.

T9: Buddhism was founded. No big surprise, but that means there's at least one religious civ in the game, I suppose.
T10: There are more clams to the NW, and it appears that the landmass north is not linked to ours... But to claim the clams, I would probably lose one of the spices in the riverland with the pigs. Decisions... But we have time, yet.
T11: The landmasses are definitely unconnected, and any city looking to claim the clams appears to need a pretty bad city spot... Not a priority, in any case. I might even let them be.
T15: We have our Worker, and I switch to a Warrior!

Spoiler screenshot :

I'll let the worker move onto the Wheat and build a farm. Question: do I wait out the lion on the jungle hill, retreat and go south, or just continue on to the jungle grassland W without a care in the world, seeing as how he already as Combat I from me being AGG?

 

[Pedro78]

I doubt I would ever build those cottages; non-riverside cottages without financial are hardly ever worth it

I don't agree with that. On maps with limited tech trading & late attack date, there are many scenarios where non-riverside cottages are worth it (not only in isolation). It's all about weighing the short-term tradeoffs against the long-term benefits.

 

[sampsa]

On fights vs barb animals: the dumbest thing you can do with your starting unit is dying. Don't die. I'd fortify to take that +95% fight or simply move away. You don't have to scout that jungle corner right now. Even if there is double seafood it's going to be your 4th city or something, so no rush.

Next city by the pigs seems good, but 3rd city should definitely not go where you marked city2. There is absolutely nothing on the 1st ring. 1N of the marked spot is possible, but you can see floodplains down the south and can certainly found a stronger city site there.

 

[rah]

This may be a rare start where you think of moving your cap to the river basin to the west.

 

[Dubioza]

Agree with sampsa here, your 2nd city mark should get clam in 1st ring, and that looks like 4th or 5th city to me. I'd probably scout east coast while circling around capital before heading to jungle. With all that food I'd think about sharing it and look for 2nd city to share fish, if scouting that hill on east side reveals that we wouldn't orphan any seafood. On starting screenshot I though that is a small island north that could share clam. I'd still go there sometimes soon, with galley&settler&defence. Not sure about city1 mark either, maybe you could settle more coastal cities and go for GLighthouse? So, maybe settle coastal with shared wheat? It looks bad, I like settling on the jungle, not around it though Maybe 4S of capitol to share wheat and lake tile? (3f after LHouse) Seing floodplains I'd probably want to settle PH or desert (especially if GLHouse) just above them. Need more map info XD

 

[Arcanior]

T15: Taking sampsa's advice, I move the warrior away. You're probably right that city2 is a very bad spot, and I should not seriously consider settling it. I'm moving further south to see what's around those floodplains.
T16: Worker starts on the wheat farm.
T17: The western coast doesn't really look promising to settle; plains forests, desert, no seafood...
T20: The wheat farm is finished. Babylon starts working the farm; 3 turns until growth, warrior completion, and Bronze Working. I'll play until then and post results.
T21: My Worker has nothing to do and can only begin prechopping in 2 turns. I move him 1N of the wheat and start building a road in the forest; when that is done, he can start chopping for our first settler.
T22: Worker starts the road. My Warrior reveals that there are 4 floodplains tiles below, and red culture south of the sea. If I remember correctly, red culture is probably Japan or Russia. The floodplains site looks good for settling, and there's dry wheat nearby. I can't really decide if I want to settle on a grassland forest (City 2a) and lose fresh water access (not really optimal for a floodplain city with regards to ), or settle on one of the floodplains (City 2b) and lose the dry wheat in the first ring. I can always farm a floodplain or be happy with just the +3 tiles
T23: BW! I have no copper anywhere on the map as of yet.

Spoiler screenshot :

I feel like I'm now approaching the point where I usually start making mistakes. I think I should go into Fishing now so I can finally get my seafood online. Furthermore, I want to start prechopping to get the WB and the first settler out as soon as possible.
To do this, I think I should do the following:
Start building another Warrior now, for fogbusting and settler protection. I can't build a WB yet anyhow, and 2 pop seems a bit early to build a settler.
Prechop the forest my worker is in now. Should I let him finish the road or not? I have a feeling it would be better to have him cancel his road building and first prechop.
When my Warrior is out, I have one more turn until I get Fishing, so I'll start one turn on a settler (3 pop by then).
When Fishing hits, switch production to a WB and put my chop in the workboat.

In the meantime, move my scouting warrior east along the coast to see what's down there.

Am I overthinking this? Are there any obvious mistakes?

 

[Arcanior]

@Dubioza, your settling advice sounds good. I might move my city1 mark down 2S, and settle another city 2N of it, coastal and sharing the wheat. That would give me three coastal cities with enough food - assuming a coastal city site will become available in the east, that might mean the GL is in order...

@rah, depending on whether or not I follow Dubioza's settling advice, I see your point. I never really seriously considered moving my capital, but it's obvious that Babylon will never work as a Bureau cap, while another city might... But it'd really have to be worth it, and that's a call I don't feel really ready to make at this point.

 

[sampsa]

IMO just grow building warrior(s), put two chops into settler (pre-chopping just loses worker turns) and whip settler asap at size 4. So you need to do some queue-swapping. You probably don't want to improve both seafood asap btw, getting more cities is more urgent.

Edit: don't worry about fresh water , just try to get good tiles on 1st ring. Check for seafood, if there is no, I'd settle your 2a spot.

 

[Fippy]

Road helps with pre-chop if needed, your worker then not loses a turn when moving back there
Also good for connecting 2nd city.

Overall pre-chopping costs worker turns, valuable early, unless they are roaded so it's working out nice on that tile.

 

[Dubioza]

I'd still go and explore east coast hill with new warrior before anything else. You really want to share some capital's food, and fish seems kind of obvious 2nd spot, it's closest (less maintenance). After that need to scout more and decide from there. I think I'd do it even with this much info anyways. Then probably 4S of capital and desert N of FP's (that alows later city 1E of south wheat if there's no seafood S, SW). Not sure about the order.

 

[Arcanior]

T23: I go into Anarchy for Slavery. My Warrior reveals Fish next to the floodplains, which confirms my settling choice of either 2b or Dubioza's suggestion of settling on the desert.
T25: The red culture is revealed to be Peter. The more I think about it, the more I tend to agree with Dubioza about settling, and I change my markers.
T26: No more seafood to the east. That means I will found a city sharing the fish 3E1S of the capital. I put a marker down.
T28: Peter is on another landmass. My Warrior in the SW has finished scouting, and will return for fogbusting duties. The SE reveals a lake and pigs (6S2E of Babylon).
T29: Babylon grows to pop 3 and builds another Warrior. Fishing has 1 turn left, so I build one more turn of Warrior, and will then switch to a WB. I start chopping a forest so the chop will go into the WB.
T30: Peter adopts Slavery and I finally finish Fishing. I switch Babylon's production to a WB.

Spoiler screenshot :

Now I'm at a crossroads.

1. What will I research next? I'm tempted to go Animal Husbandry and use the first settler to found City2. Then again, as Dubioza pointed out, if I settle City3, the maintenance will be less. I do feel that the site is not as good as City2, though. City3 is for later, I think. But if I go for City3 first, Animal Husbandry can wait and I could go Pottery for granaries.

2. Related: where do I found my first city? In the current situation, I'm tempted to go for City2. It's a good spot with a 61 tile and 2 floodplains in the first circle, and great potential. City3 is closer though, and will have the fish sharing going for it. City1 looks like something I might found when at least either IW or Calendar are coming up...

3. What do I chop for the settler? I'm tempted to chop both grassland forests, not the one on the hill, because it also nets a movement bonus then.

Thoughts?

 

[Dubioza]

Sorry, I edited previous posts most likely after you've already read it

This would probably be my settling, especially with GLHouse.

 

[Arcanior]

Those settling spots look pretty close to what I had in mind in my last post, except the one SE, but that's because of the newly revealed terrain down there... The GL strategy makes me think - is it worthwhile to found City3 first, skip Animal Husbandry for now, and research Sailing first? That will net me Trade Routes with Peter, which, I think, will substantially increase my .