Forum Game - mastering Monarch

[lymond]

I think sampsa is referring to the timing of the settler. I'm not sure what you did to get the 2nd wb, but the clams are not as strong. The fish/wheat gives plenty of fuel for the first settler and growth. You could even whip the first settler into the wb. The point is getting the next settler out faster instead of waiting many turns for the 2nd wb, when it can be more gradually built or finished with OF

6>3 is a really strong whip as it is fast and you can time some good OF with just a couple turns production with strong tiles. Personally, I'd probably do the first coupla cities with 4>2 whips. No, you don't need the warrior in there for some time. You can stall growth at the relevant size with the settler or worker for unhappy to wear off - or just until you get the right production in place for the whip - then grow/whip. warriors are fine for growing, or the 2nd wb...whatever the needs are at the time.

These types of things will help you move up. You don't need to get overly into it now, but just start being aware of the timings of everything. Less experience players tend to sit and wait for these workboats to finish and then 30 or 40 turns go by.

..so it is more about getting one to focus on the most important things first...strong food/.growth, chops, whips, fast settlers, good worker decisions, barb protection.

I'd add too that - since the clams are there - I'd have no problem whipping off of them. The wheat/fish is what you definitely don't whip off of.

 

[Arcanior]

Looking back through my report, I definitely see @sampsa's point. It would have been better to put the chop into a settler, not the WB, since I already had two strong food tiles (wheat and fish)...

Another question - once Sailing is up, do I build a lighthouse in Babylon as well? It seems like not a bad thing to build while growing back to chop size, especially since I think I will have more or less enough warriors by then. Although it's just for the +1 food on the fish (and now the second clam as well), and not for building the GLH afterwards.

Edit: I just did the math, and we're Organized, so that's 30 for a permanent +2 , or two warriors. That doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

 

[sampsa]

@sampsa, when you say the 2nd work boat was a mistake, that's because of the three strong tile thing?

If I understand this correctly, it's only worth it if I'll always be working that tile, so now my whip sizes are 5>3 and 6>3. And that - correct me if I'm wrong - means that I should start keeping a Warrior in the cap for happiness, since I don't have any happiness resources. Should I have built another Warrior while growing back to whip size instead?

Agreed, my thoughts were a bit confusing AND my intuition on this could be simply wrong. The problem is that since you want to do some whips, it's hard to efficiently use so many strong tiles due to -issues. If you had just 2 power tiles, you could whip 4->2 and possibly even stack some whip anger to get settlers/workers out. The main issue of course is that improving that tile cost you 30 and delayed expansion a bit.

I'm sure it's no big deal anyway.

 

[lymond]

Looking back through my report, I definitely see @sampsa's point. It would have been better to put the chop into a settler, not the WB, since I already had two strong food tiles (wheat and fish)...

exactly..the chop will speed up the settler whip and you have two very good food tiles already

Another question - once Sailing is up, do I build a lighthouse in Babylon as well? It seems like not a bad thing to build while growing back to chop size, especially since I think I will have more or less enough warriors by then. Although it's just for the +1 food on the fish (and now the second clam as well), and not for building the GLH afterwards.

LH is not a priority in Babs, although you are Organize so it is a quick build. Again, you have strong food already, and settlers/workes/protection are the priority for Babs right now. Later some settler or worker whip OF will likely finish the LH in 1t, but until you get some extra happy anyway, I'd say it is not a priority.

I think sampsa's intuition on this was correct.

edit: you definitely want a second worker sooner than later, so I'd whip second settler into worker. I suspect right now that subsequent workers may not be totally urgent with next cities, so you could whip the 3rd settler into LH..at least to part build it

edit again: Although I think a scout wb soon would be even better than LH cause I don't think you will get foreign trade routes without it.

though actually that wb probably better out of Akkad..some point after GLH started and Writing is near.

 

[Arcanior]

@lymond: good call on the scout WB. Although, if I complete the road on the pigs, won't I get foreign trade routes via Akkad? I have a coast connection to Peter in the south.

 

[lymond]

hmm..looking back at the last view of that area, it appears that you should have the trade connection. (yeah, always considered Akk the focal point of that trade route but wasn't sure if the fog was clear) I was focused on that fog to the right of what I assume is Moscow, but it appears open to the W and N. So not as urgent, although still nice to have to scout for more AIs and borders. As I mentioned above, that wb probably better outta Akk at some point.

hmm..I wonder if Peter is on a separate land mass...can't tell

oh..you don't seem to play with BUG or BAT!

 

[Arcanior]

Alright then; one more short turnset.

T43: I turn research to 0%, and get +10 gold. Not exactly spectacular; I need those trade routes.
T44: Babylon grows to pop 4 and pops the Warrior I've been building to grow. If I keep it on Babylon for a turn, it just reaches its happy cap; I can't move it off or generate one unhappy face. Even on its happy cap, it can only get the settler to 38/100 though. I'll have to wait an extra turn to be able to whip; I really start feeling my earlier mistakes here. I put the slider back to 100%.
T46: I 2-pop-whip my settler in Babylon. In Akkad my pig pasture is ready, and I finish the road to get the trade route up.
T47: My settler pops and I move him to City3 for our fish-sharing city. I move my worker back to continue chopping in Babylon - we need a second worker ASAP. I put the 21 overflow into a Worker.
T48: I switch Babylon's production to a Work Boat (I know Akkad would be more ideal for a scouting WB, but I figure at this time it's a better build for growing on than a warrior. Also, if I'm sharing the fish next turn and the wheat once I found City1, I'll be needing both clams...)
T49: I start chopping one of Babylon's hills to put into a worker. My settler founds Dur-Kurigalzu on City3, and I assign the fish to this city. Babylon starts working the clams. I put my research to 0% for one more turn and get +16 . Better already.
T50: Research back to 100%. I suddenly notice - and this feels like a big mistake - that I've mostly been ignoring Akkad's whipping potential until now. It's been slowbuilding a warrior for the past ten turns or so, and is 2 turns away from reaching pop 4. I'll whip a lighthouse in two turns once Sailing comes online, then. Could I have whipped something else earlier here?
T51: The chop goes into my Worker at Babylon, which will finish next turn.
T52: You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails. I start Masonry and prepare myself for boatloads of cash when I get the GL. My Worker in Babylon finishes, and I put the overflow into my next Settler. I start a Lighthouse in Akkad, which I will whip next turn. Also, I can't use my worker yet to go chopping in Akkad, since he can do so in five turns at the earliest (to research Masonry). Do I have him do something else first, like build a mine in Babylon? I don't think there are many better things to do... I'm questioning if I should have built him at all at this point.

At this point, I've run into a small issue. I hadn't considered that the last forest of Babylon now belongs to Dur-Kurigalzu. Do I still chop it and use it to build something in Dur-Kurigalzu? If so, what? My first intuition would be a settler - combining of course with a whip.

Spoiler screenshot :

Edit: About BUG: Yes, I used to play with it. Haven't played on this laptop before, though, so haven't installed it yet. I will do so, since it does really help a lot (with intuitively seeing unhappiness timers and whatnot.

 

[Dubioza]

Don't whip LH, that'd be 1pop whip. I forgot ORG gives cheap LH's..
You do know you can swap overlapping tiles between cities while in city screen, right?

 

[Arcanior]

I do! So you think I should slowbuild the LH? I think I'd best save my chops for the Great Lighthouse. In that case, I might already build a mine on the PH in Akkad, to speed up building of TGL later.

 

[Dubioza]

At this point, I've run into a small issue. I hadn't considered that the last forest of Babylon now belongs to Dur-Kurigalzu. Do I still chop it and use it to build something in Dur-Kurigalzu? If so, what? My first intuition would be a settler - combining of course with a whip.

Well, that chop can go to the city of your choosing, just go to city screen and swap that tile to city you want that chop in, before you chop it.
Dunno, I think I'd put that chop in Akkad (assuming your worker is chopping there) to maybe another worker and 2pop whip a worker into LH.

 

[lymond]

This is all a timing thing again. You could either started the LH earlier and whipped it at some point (or slow built with hammer tiles) or started something else like a Settler at size 3 for now to get in some production. Bottom line, try to pay attention to growth and happiness. It is a little different when you have a city like Akk that is primarily focused on a single goal. However, that goal is dependent on a tech that has not finished yet. This city is one I might want a warrior in it because it does want to work some production. Workers could pre-mine GH (chops forest when done) and pre-chop other forest there. (it's not easy to tell when not playing the turns)

yeah, you don't want to 1pop at the moment, but I would not say you would not 1pop the LH

(you have a dead spot around horse area for barbs...NW warrior is fine where he stand, move SW warrior 2N. You may need another warrior down SW but can't tell from pic.

(yep, forest tile ownership can simply be switched in the city screen by switching the citizens)

edit: meant to say don't be afraid to switch to the unimproved hammer tiles earlier on to stall growth and finish LH and maybe that warrior (still queued?) faster. We tend to emphasize growth but that is if we plan to actually whip something like a non-org LH.

while pretty much always working food specials, the pros tend to manage citizens quite frequently - like every turn based on hammer and growth needs, and what the city is trying to do. Also, the whole tile sharing thing as well.

did Babs need that warrior or was he better in Akk?

oh..and warrior to the SE can move out some..probably 1S2E...he gets some visi over the lake as well.

(oh, if no one has mentioned, a single unit spawnbusts a 5X5 tile area from the spot he stands on)

Lastly, I'd say build a wb in Dur now and immediately whip at Size 2 into a worker...probably send it scouting E.

 

[sampsa]

I'd finish the warrior and 2-pop whip a worker in Akkad.

 

[Dubioza]

In Akkad, you should've worked pig+FP+forested grassland last turn to get the warrior out 1T sooner, to garrison Akkad. I check all of my cities in city screen every turn, cycle between them. Babylon should grow 1 more size, since it's 1T away from growing. Maybe it's ok to put OF into settler this turn, grow next turn and swap to settlert turn after.
What were your workers doing? Did worker that's currently in Akkad just got there? Is he new worker that was just produced in Babylon? And guy that's on grasshill in Babylon is the one that was improving the pig earlier in Akkad? If so, you're waisting worker turns, which are the most valuable early game.
Since this is your current situation, I'd say in Dur-Kur queue a workboat and whip it in 2T, finish warrior in Akkad, start chopping in Akkad, slowbuild LH until chop, then put 1T into worker with chop. Get 29 hammers into worker to get the most OF, even if that means working pig+2xFP+naked PH or coast (20 from chop+tiles), then whip a worker into LH to finish it in 1T. You want 2 workers to be chopping and mining in Akkad for GLH.

Like lymond said, it's all about timing. Quite often, if not all the time, you have to think few turns ahead and synchronize growth times, whips, improvements, queues and worker turns.

 

[sampsa]

finish warrior in Akkad, start chopping in Akkad, slowbuild LH until chop, then put 1T into worker with chop. Get 29 hammers into worker to get the most OF, even if that means working pig+2xFP+naked PH or coast (20 from chop+tiles), then whip a worker into LH to finish it in 1T. You want 2 workers to be chopping and mining in Akkad for GLH.

Otherwise good advice, but this is simply bad micro. Better is simple whip worker, chop lighthouse. Otherwise it's the same, but in your example you need to work bad tiles for one turn. There is nothing lucrative in overflow in itself. It's just in the bank with no interest.

 

[Dubioza]

Well, since he's already on size 4, maybe working more tiles for few more turns would get the tech 1T faster? With full OF it could finish LH in 1T and would net some OF into GLH already. It would also have more food in food bin for faster regrowth. Getting worker out 2T sooner is also beneficial, I see your point. Yeah I agree, your micro seems better now when I think about it. But my example isn't that far off, I think. I just don't like whipping without max OF benefit, except maybe settlers to get them sooner.

 

[Arcanior]

Alright, I'll try to integrate all of your advice into the next turnset. I do have to say, especially the micro with the workers and the queue-swapping. Don't get too frustrated if I don't get it entirely right, though, I'll try to, as lymond say, survey my cities every turn. I'll write my thoughts out in this post, so you can judge if my way of thinking when deciding these things is right.

Let's go!

T52: I move my W warrior back so there's no dead spots in the SW with regards to spawnbusting (5x5-areas). I also move the warrior SE a bit to the E. I also take Dubioza's advice, putting the Babylon OF into a settler, and letting Babylon postpone its growth until next turn. I let Dur-Kurigalzu build a workboat. I'll let Akkad finish its warrior this turn for happiness, and switch to a worker for whipping next turn. I move my worker in Babylon on the other grassland forest hill for chopping and switch its ownership to Babylon (I didn't know switching ownership like that actually affected chopping, thanks for that).
T53:I switch Babylon's production back to a warrior, so it can grow. D-K growing this turn is also okay, I think. It can whip its workboat next turn, as Dubioza said. I also start chopping the hill near Babylon, to put into the settler later. About the hill in Akkad... @lymond mentioned prebuilding a mine there, which sounds like good advice. If I whip the worker next turn, I'll have a lot of overflow going into the lighthouse, so it will be better to have the from the forest going into the Great Lighthouse. Or is this faulty thinking and is whipping earlier simply better? This way, I'll keep a 12 tile for longer, though.
T54: I whip the worker in Akkad, and the WB in D-K. I really don't know what I should do in Babylon at this point. I think it's best to continue to let it grow on the warrior. Next turn I'll switch to settler, when the chop comes in, and then switch to warrior again, until I'm at 4 size, when I can whip again.
T55: I switch to a settler in Babylon. The chop comes in and the settler will be at 41/100 next turn. I'll switch back to a warrior next turn to allow Babylon to grow to size 4. I have the workboat in D-K scout to the E, and let D-K grow back on a warrior. I'm not really sure what I should do with the Worker in Akkad. I suppose it's not a bad idea to build a mine on the PH, for when we'll be building TGL, so I do that.
T56: I really have the feeling I don't know what to do with my workers. My worker near D-K who finished his chop last turn can chop the forest below for D-K (out of Babylon's BFC) or build a mine for Babylon... I'm not sure what I'd use the chop for in D-K, though. I feel like I have enough workers now, and maybe a mine would not be too bad in D-K, because the only decent tile it can work for the moment is the fish. I'm going to stop here, because I feel I really need advice.

This turnset was very short, but mostly because I feel there's a lot going on and I feel like I have a lot of tools I don't know what to do with, especially my workers. I can mostly understand the mistakes I made earlier in build orders, but I still feel like I'm struggling to grasp what I should have my workers do at what point. What do you think?

Spoiler screenshot :

 

[Dubioza]

You could've chopped that grassland in Akkad while you were on it, you'd have LH finished now. Did you just pre-chop it? That can be useful sometimes, but I don't like doing that, unless tile is roaded so you don't lose worker turn later getting back on that forest. After that I'd probably go with both workers on grasshill to mine it (depends on growth timing, but probably would be able to finish it and put that chop in GLH) - that's a better tile than PH mine (1/3/1 vs 0/4/0), additional commerce and food for faster growth. Improvements depend on what you're trying to do. I'd say atleast 1 mine next to Babylon is a must by now, you can switch it to D-K when you whip Babylon, and other way around. I like to road hills while I'm on them, just so I don't lose worker turns getting back on them. So, if I'd chop a foested hill, I'd road it before moving off of it If you'd do that with the hill closest to Babylon, settler for D-K would settle it 1T faster. I'd say you're good with warriors for now, 1 more WB in Babylon for missing clam seems more important than warrior. Maybe one more to start scouting other side or N? But, it's still good. Finish mining those hills in Akkad, then start chopping into GLH.

You're still open to some barbs and barb city spawns on W side (barb cities can spawn even in 5x5 radius if tiles are still in fog of war). Warrior next to Akkad (soon) move 1NW on the hill and 1 more warrior to south. This yould also prevent barb galleys spawn in some areas.

EDIT: You should really install BUG and BULL. They really help you seing more numbers, so you can plan better.

 

[lymond]

yep, you can throw BUG/BULL in custom assets and still play this game

don't worry at all about us getting frustrated...we fully expects mistakes to be made. we've all been in your boat..ha

actually, it is really better to play shorter turnsets, although with a learner game you can always replay stuff too

 

[Dubioza]

Ye no worries, dude. I was in a rush, sorry if I sounded frustrated I wasn't.

Is that BigFatCross indicator on your last screenshot? And I missed it? A BUG feature? Now we're rolling!

EDIT: I think you missunderstood me earlier, I was referring to your T52 screenshot when I said it's ok to put Babylon's OF into settler, since it was your plan. It'd be better to put it into WB, if that was in your queue, maybe even finish it while gorwing to size 3 and start settler on 3 strong tiles.

 

[Arcanior]

T56: I move both western warriors 1NW. My worker near D-K starts a mine, and I switch Babylon's production to a WB. The scouting boat reveals fish to the E.
T58: Masonry pops. I'm not really sure which tech I want next. Calendar is still a ways away, for the city near the spices, but I feel I should be progressing in that direction. The question is: Pottery or Writing? I think Writing first definitely has its merits. Pottery's main advantage would be granaries for faster whipping, but I fear we'd stack up unhappiness too fast, especially as we don't have happiness resources. I choose Writing.
T59: Both mines in Akkad finish. Akkad is at 3 pop now, the Lighthouse at 44/60, and has 42 coming up (including the 100% bonus from ORG). I wonder if I should whip for 30 overflow into TGL... I will only be able to work one of both mines, though, and whipping is essentially equivalent to 10 turns of working a mine. The pig tile would make sure that the second mine comes back online pretty fast, though. On the other hand, I'd gain an extra unhappy face, and I've got one of them left for five turns... But I do think whipping would mean a slightly faster TGL, so I do it.
Babylon is back at size 4, so I whip another settler. The mine in D-K is ready, and I switch D-K to work the mine.
T60: Akkad finishes its Lighthouse, and I have 30 overflow in Akkad. I switch to the PH, since I have 4 turns of unhappiness left, and don't need to grow next turn (which I would have done had I worked the floodplain). The new Warrior in D-K can move to the SW. I put Babylon's OF into the WB it was building, which will finish in two turns. Good, because since I'll be sharing the wheat in a couple of turns with my new city, I'll need the extra food tile. I move my settler to the City1 spot. One of the workers near Akkad moves into the forest to chop it into the GL, while the other moves north to chop one of the Spice forests once the new city is there next turn.
T61: Nippur is founded and starts working the wheat. Babylon will have to work a slightly worse tile (the lake) for two turns, until the second clams come online. I could have prevented this, had I not wasted a few turns building another Warrior earlier and gone for a WB straight away.
T62: My new WB moves onto the clams. I start building a second mine SE of Babylon. Akkad has grown to size 3 and is unhappy and will stay that way for 2 more turns. After that, it can work the grassland hill mine. I also start chopping the Spice forest near Nippur.
T63: Babylon starts working the second clams. Should I start thinking of getting a Lighthouse here? I think it might me more worth my while, especially since D-K is still building warriors. I switch to a lighthouse in Babylon. Our scouting boat reveals copper and a barb archer 6S5E of the pigs south of Dur-Kurigalzu.
T64: Akkad becomes happy and starts working the grassland hill mine. Dur-Kurigalzu finishes its warrior and continues growing on a warrior. My scouting WB reveals another landmass/island to the far SE. Including the chop, TGL will still take 17 turns in Akkad... Would this have been less without the whipping I did in T59?

I'll end the turnset here. Was my tech idea the right one? What do I research after Writing? My intuition tells me to go for Math, since that opens up Calendar and Construction, though it doesn't seem like Construction really is much of a priority here. I also do not want to be super late to CoL, but Math is just a good way to get there as Alphabet. Alphabet opens tech trade, but since there's only Peter so far...
What do I do with the worker that just finished chopping in Akkad? He can't really do much more there, so I should move him to one of my other cities. At this point, that means either road-building for a new city, more mining in D-K or chopping the suboptimal plains forest 2SE of D-K. I suppose I could also build farms, but I'm not sure a 3 tile is worth working now. Maybe farm the spices?

Spoiler screenshot :