Founding a Religion - when is it worthwhile?

[mirthadir]

Been doing some experiments on this. When you do actually get the religion.

Albeit without the 3 commerce tile on Emperor level.

If you can get Hindu and Jewish religion this opens door to Christianity via the Oracle. (Although COl would give court houses) Also for trading purposes i think COl route works better. Although christianity opens up the AP.

The downside is huge. You dont get BW till past 15000/2000bc. Lets hope Shaka does not have iron or copper or someone is going to get rushed. If you want a shrine you will need SH or oracle or another wonder like temple of artemis for great priest. Although temples open up priests too but more hammers.

In terms of worker techs. If you are not imperialist this will slow you down. Leaders like HRG dont start with mining or wheel. So a settler straight off is obvious. Well what is the worker going to do? I might even worker steal and pray for peace.

Now for Jewish religion you would need masonry. Another non worker tech unless you have marble. I find if you dont research the Jewish religion the Ai will trade Bud/ Jewish religion across the land.

Sometimes if I get all 3 I will wait till one expands to an Ai before I adopt a religion. Christianity and Conf are the first religion to give you a missionary. So a shrine might work better with these.

Overall you can get 3 early religions before 1000bc albeit it the expense of your expansion. Although lack of copper/lead are an issue and trading of alphabet later will be key.

My main problem is getting the religion to actually spread when I have open borders and a shrine. Maybe lacking sailing.

5 by that date is actually possible with high enough food. Nab Hinduism/Mono then swap back to mining/BW. Then on to priest/writing; Oracle (chop in an expansion city) CoL, chop/whip in temples, run priests (or UBs which allow you to run priests), and the bulb theo. Swap to caste to run mass scientists, tech med, and bulb philo (and you actually start on this just as soon as your priest farm is sure to pop a GPr first). More of a cheese strat, but doable without nearly the limitations of trying for all 7.

 

[Gumbolt]

Didnt try bulbing Theo. Never checked if it was possible. Might of been the better option really. I was only experimenting really. There was a minor issue of keeping some restless neighbour happy. So the strategy is not as easy as one may think.

 

[futurehermit]

I had a negative experience founding hinduism yesterday. I was playing as HC and I had agricultural resources in my capital and I was on a river, so I decided to take a shot at polyth. I founded hindu, but got off to a slower start than normal in terms of expansion. This was also because I focused on quechua rushing China, who was nearby. Once that was all out of the way, I focused on expanding. Because I had a strong bureau capital, I got CS ca. 1AD and things were going ok. However, the other two civs on my continent--Toku and Hannibal--were both Jewish and pretty much hated my guts the whole game. Hannibal founded Judaism and Toku is notoriously hard to get along with anyways, so I pretty much had no allies until post-optics.

I didn't play it out to a conclusion. I'm pretty sure I would win as I was finishing renaissance military tech while Toku and Hannibal were still pre-gunpowder, but it would've definitely been easier if I had waited to adopt Judaism and have Hannibal as an ally while I focused my attention on Toku.

 

[mirthadir]

Didnt try bulbing Theo. Never checked if it was possible. Might of been the better option really. I was only experimenting really. There was a minor issue of keeping some restless neighbour happy. So the strategy is not as easy as one may think.

No strategy is as easy as one thinks when you play at your difficulty level. It is highly map dependent which strats are most viable; that includes everything from rushes to religion spam to GLH abuse. If you have a neighbor you are going to have to fight, then forget about religion spam. Generally I only go for 6 religions when I've gambled on Poly first, won it, and think I'm isolated. The hope here is to nerf half or more of the AIs by keeping them without religion.

The theo bulb is one of two extremely common and powerful bulbs for tech trading purposes (the other being philo). If you build the Oracle you are well position (4 techs, one of which is writing) unlocks the option to bulb theo. This then allows you to quick bulb (using GSc) Paper, Philo, and Edu and only having to slow research lib; trading those away when safe normally can get you a good shot at extremely nationalism, pp, or astro; alternatively you take DR though many times an AI will beeline this.

 

[noto2]

bulbing theo is handy for warmongers

 

[Gumbolt]

No strategy is as easy as one thinks when you play at your difficulty level. It is highly map dependent which strats are most viable; that includes everything from rushes to religion spam to GLH abuse. If you have a neighbor you are going to have to fight, then forget about religion spam. Generally I only go for 6 religions when I've gambled on Poly first, won it, and think I'm isolated. The hope here is to nerf half or more of the AIs by keeping them without religion.

The theo bulb is one of two extremely common and powerful bulbs for tech trading purposes (the other being philo). If you build the Oracle you are well position (4 techs, one of which is writing) unlocks the option to bulb theo. This then allows you to quick bulb (using GSc) Paper, Philo, and Edu and only having to slow research lib; trading those away when safe normally can get you a good shot at extremely nationalism, pp, or astro; alternatively you take DR though many times an AI will beeline this.

I might go back a few turns and see if it was possible. Neighbour included a few military AI that just bash you because they feel like it.

 

[Gumbolt]

Hmm I went back about 20 turns.

The reason Theology didnt show is I needed mediation.

Used oracle for COl and waited on GP till i could trade mediation. Then i teched theology.

So 4/5 religions using HRG. Should have a good shot at Philosophy. My religions are spreading throughout the lands. Question is can I stop people attacking me first.

 

[Flying Pig]

bulbing theo is handy for warmongers

Yep - and Christianity is, in my experiance, the easiest religion to found without going out of your way to get one. It's also quite easy to get, and as you said opens up Theocracy, which is awesome for giving soldiers power to kill things easily.

 

[TabascoBob]

It took me a while to get on the wagon and quit the early religons; once I did, it was easier to quit the shiny wonders too. That was the key to moving up from noble to prince (although I still struggle, it's not hopeless...) Now I have a reasonable chance of picking up one of the "middles" from CoL or Theo and spreading it to some heathen neighbors. Whether I adopt it or not depends (as does most everything in this game). I am finding that incorporating a deliberate strategy of grabbing Confucism or Christianity and spreading it to my nearest neighbors gives me religon-based options for diplomacy and warring that a purely passive approach to religon only gives me by chance. For this reason, along with the other benefits of having a religon (shrine cash, bonuses from religious civics, diplomatic intrigue, happiness), I will attempt to nab one of the two "middies" (or Taoism, if I miss and other circumstances line up for a run at Phil).

Otherwise, the early religon gambit seems to be just that to me-- a way to go if you're in the mood, but otherwise too limiting in the long run.

 

[Gumbolt]

It took me a while to get on the wagon and quit the early religons; once I did, it was easier to quit the shiny wonders too. That was the key to moving up from noble to prince (although I still struggle, it's not hopeless...) Now I have a reasonable chance of picking up one of the "middles" from CoL or Theo and spreading it to some heathen neighbors. Whether I adopt it or not depends (as does most everything in this game). I am finding that incorporating a deliberate strategy of grabbing Confucism or Christianity and spreading it to my nearest neighbors gives me religon-based options for diplomacy and warring that a purely passive approach to religon only gives me by chance. For this reason, along with the other benefits of having a religon (shrine cash, bonuses from religious civics, diplomatic intrigue, happiness), I will attempt to nab one of the two "middies" (or Taoism, if I miss and other circumstances line up for a run at Phil).

Otherwise, the early religon gambit seems to be just that to me-- a way to go if you're in the mood, but otherwise too limiting in the long run.

On Emperor conf is easy with the oracle. Just remember to tech towards writing before you complete it.

Philosphy with a great scientist is just as easy on Emperor level once you have alphabet/maths.

Bud/ jud/hin are a tough ask unless you start with the right techs. Msyt is a must.

Overall a religion is useful but on most games i would rather rush a neighbour AI for it.

I think the 5-6 religion grab if you are on a island alone is probably possible. Downside is the whole world might turn hindu and cause you AP issues.

 

[TabascoBob]

@Gumbolt: I appreciate the comments, and I'm encouraged to hear that all is not lost (when it comes to founding a religon) at higher levels than I play. I agree that taking religon from a neighbor by force, including their shrine city, is more efficient than founding/spreading yourself.

For the Phil bulb (and I apologize that this is off-topic), is the decision to bulb it <<always>> a matter of beakers? For example, the alternatives to bulbing Phil are usually planting that third academy in a city that is a) generating 10-15 beakers and/or a likely HE or MS city; or b) planting the GS in your science city (sometimes capital, sometimes Second City) for the library/academy/Rep enhanced super specialist.

I guess the beeline to Lib bonus from bulbing Phil comes into the equation too (now that I'm putting a couple of candles on the subject, I guess the Civic and the trade possibilities should go into the equation too.) I usually will look at the bump to science and if the payback from putting up the academy is less than 150 turns, I may not bulb; less than 100, I probably won't bulb.

 

[Gumbolt]

@Gumbolt: I appreciate the comments, and I'm encouraged to hear that all is not lost (when it comes to founding a religon) at higher levels than I play. I agree that taking religon from a neighbor by force, including their shrine city, is more efficient than founding/spreading yourself.

For the Phil bulb (and I apologize that this is off-topic), is the decision to bulb it <<always>> a matter of beakers? For example, the alternatives to bulbing Phil are usually planting that third academy in a city that is a) generating 10-15 beakers and/or a likely HE or MS city; or b) planting the GS in your science city (sometimes capital, sometimes Second City) for the library/academy/Rep enhanced super specialist.

I guess the beeline to Lib bonus from bulbing Phil comes into the equation too (now that I'm putting a couple of candles on the subject, I guess the Civic and the trade possibilities should go into the equation too.) I usually will look at the bump to science and if the payback from putting up the academy is less than 150 turns, I may not bulb; less than 100, I probably won't bulb.

Well I think a lot add first GS to science city as an academy the second towards philosophy. Its a very tradable tech too.

In terms of science most seem to go the mids/representation route and specialist on higher levels. 5-6 scientists can easily bring 30 science beakers a turn. Add in academy, library, Glib if built and you are soon at 100 science beakers a turn by 1ad. That and 7-10 cities soon give you a good tech lead.

On Emperor and below the Ai will always go for Economics before edu and Lib. So much so that its not much of a race at times. Even nationalism will often go before Lib race. Grabbing steel from lib race is not uncommon on lower levels.

I have seen games on here where people have used a late religion like taoism to smuggle a AP win.

 

[mike p]

Founding an early religion (Bud, Hind, Jud) is only worthwhile on Prince or lower. Theology is only worth going first for if you pop the GA from Music, and CoL if you need courthouses anyway. Taoism is OK if you're going to bulb Philosophy anyway, and Islam is only worth founding if you're going cultural. IMO.

 

[MadmanAtW]

That implies ever not needing Courthouses.

 

[Barenziahlover]

Okay, so we all have that inner noob that secretly wants to found every religion and build every shrine. As for me, I smacked that noob a long time ago and have played countless games where I never intentionally founded a religion. Now, I like to think of myself as a fairly experienced player, and I have experimented with founding religions with some of the leaders that start with mysticism - such as Wang Kon, Boudica, Justinian, etc.
Unfortunately I find that founding a religion just usually doesn't benefit me much. The biggest benefit is getting a religion sooner, in my eyes. Rather than waiting for an AI to spread it to me, I get to build temples sooner for the additional happiness, and I get the religious benefits, like ORG REL +25% building hammers sooner. Of course there's the shrine money, but it seems somewhat minor.
So I guess I'm wondering, what are some ways to exploit a founded religion? And who do you found them with? Justinian is a good example of a leader who confuses me. With him I don't know whether to found a religion or not - since founding one will slow down my initial expansion.
I'd like some thoughts on this, please.

They make religion too general in natural. I study the early religion history of Islam One of the Eas Rome Emporous was con by pagon of Mecca into senting than army of 100,000 men under the Emporous into attacking the Muslim in Medine. The Muslim sent than force of 3000 men to meet the Romane army. They met than fought than strange battle where 500 muslim die, 10,000 romane die with than other 10,000 badly wound have to be sent back to be heal. They captive one muslim the Emporous talk to him wanting to know why they fought like they did. The muslim told the Emporous about Islam and Emporous said your religion is closely to my the pagon in Mecca lie to me about Islam so I than pulling out and you are free to go.

 

[Bleys]

I recently used the free GA from Music to bulb Theo. It was the Charlemagne Monarch game recently, got 5 religions out of the deal, and eventually conquered the other Holy Cities and had 7 Shrines when I won the game (AP vote, but I could have gone for any VC). I cant remember my exact tech order to make that happen, but it wasnt anything screwy. I was all set to sleep the GA for a Golden Age later when I wanted a mass civic change, and I happened to notice his bulb wasnt Drama, it was Theology.

I will note this, I founded the 5 in different cities, 3 of them had competing AI borders (early blocker cities), and the +5 Culture from a Holy City really made a difference. It allowed me to get my stack within a move in 2 places when I started taking some land by force.

 

[helemaalnicks]

Game was as follows. I am lizzy, and am going for a 3city HA "rush" against HC. No copper around, so I decided to beeline HBR. In the meantime, I thought, now why am I so bad at rushing?? Because I don't have a good plan to go with after the rush. I need to think about my economy VERY early this game. So I starting chopping out the henge, with a plan... horse archers where going at it, and my first priest popped. The free monument gave my newly captured cities a very quick border pop, and with the first priest I popped for theo (YA, THATS RIGHT, useless frigging theology!!). long term plan part one. I send the missionary to london, popped out a missionary in the other city to convert the neigbour, and in the meantime I whipped the temple in london to speed up priest nr. 2. Put that priest in york, religion spread itself in my own land, and my neighbour did it himself. Bagged me 11 gold per turn after only about 10 turns. Around 500 AD it already got me 20 or so a turn. If you notice no religion on your island, either a theo slingshot or COL slingshot is nice imo. Theo seems like a worthless tech, but clearing the path for paper 1000 BC or so (if you're financial, do you really NEED civ service early?) is VERY nice imo. you don't just get the religion, you also get an almost guaranteed lib race win. I say, early religion is a winner (unless it's buddhism-hinduism-judaism).

 

[Deckhand]

I say, early religion is a winner (unless it's buddhism-hinduism-judaism).

 

[Flying Pig]

That implies ever not needing Courthouses.

I think he means whether or not you can put off building them