France to ban the burka?

[Eran of Arcadia]

I thought Sarkozy was calling for the burka to be outlawed, which if a far cry from just saying it's rude.

 

[Lay_Lay]

I don't see how, unless you are arguing that all immigrants must immediately lose all their past cultural identities, or it is a threat to the nation.

I understand your thought, but no, not all. Case by case. My argument is that this specific dogmatic practice infringes on France's cultural identity and solidarity in some specific ways that could be explained in detail. Many will buy the argument.
Can this same argument be applied to other dogmatice practices? Yes. But I am only talking burkas, and would specify my wish that this ruling to never be deemed a precedent for future hearings of this kind, but instead that each ruling be taken on its own merit. Also, it depends on how badly you infringe on the individual liberties of the minority immigrant population. Only a minimal infringement is acceptable, if the goal is to protect a potential victim that is not a person, but something subjective, like "France's cultural identity."

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm pretty sure that it always has been like that, and the fact that the process is mostly over for some ethnic groups (whose biggest waves of immigration are many generations past) makes us think it didn't take very long, since it happened so long ago.

It's never really over in NYC. There is a constant influx of people from the various countries that find their way to their new surrogate neighborhoods through family, friends, and acquantances. Very few come alone with no contacts.

But individuals do indeed become quite assimilated in a very short period of time. I lived with a first-generation Italian-American for 8 years. You would never suspect her parents weren't born here as well unless you spoke to them.

There is a fast food restaurant in Greenville, SC that is owned by Greeks. They all speak Greek behind the counter. The recent immigrants only speak Greek, but their kids are fluent in both languages. And they all speak English with thick Southern accents which they picked up from the other kids in the public schools. It is so unexpected to hear someone switch between the two languages while completely losing the accent in the process.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's never really over in NYC. There is a constant influx of people from the various countries that find their way to their new surrogate neighborhoods through family, friends, and acquantances. Very few come alone with no contacts.

What I meant was, this process is not going on at as large a scale for, say, the Irish or Italians, as for those of other nations. There aren't as many first-generation Italians, just descendants of first-generation Italians whose ancestors have already gone through the assimilation process.

But individuals do indeed become quite assimilated in a very short period of time. I lived with a first-generation Italian-American for 8 years. You would never suspect her parents weren't born here as well unless you spoke to them.

There is a fast food restaurant in Greenville, SC that is owned by Greeks. They all speak Greek behind the counter. The recent immigrants only speak Greek but their kids are fluent in both languages, and they speak English with thick Southern accents. It is so unexpected to hear someone switch between the two languages while completely losing the accent in the process.

I have come into contact with many first and second generation Latinos and I would agree that this is the case. The people who came over as kids, or who were born here of immigrant parents, want to assimilate, at least as far as language is concerned.

 

[Lay_Lay]

Interesting viewpoint. I'm curious, though: would you adapt to local customs and rules, where you strongly felt that they were immoral? If you moved to a country where it was customary for the local mayor to have sex with the wife of any immigrant, and it was viewed as "rude and selfish" to deny him his privilege, would you want your wife to follow through?

Somehow, I doubt it. I suspect that this is because you view sex as a moral issue, but clothing as a non-issue, morality-wise. (If that's incorrect, by all means, correct me)

If I chose to be a guest of an established culture, I would do what they do, even if I strongly felt they were immoral. Because that is how I would want them to act, if roles were reversed, and they were the immigrant in my country. I don't find clothing or lack of, nor consentual sex to be immoral. What a confusing assumption. Perhaps the tube top comment I made? I meant, that to be respectful of the local Riyadh population, I would not be so rude as to think that my woman should go out in hotty clothes. That is disrespectful of local custom and people.

Whichever stance you take on the issue, one should not fail to recognize the rudeness. It is not cool for a hot American chick to wear a miniskirt, tube top, and crucifix, shopping in Riyadh, nor is is cool to be a Parisian burka chick. Both are rude and similar affronts to the host nation. Yes, it is important to remain better than them, by not legislating against burkas, as they legislate against tube tops. /shameonthem

I want people to denigrate the burka in Paris or Dallas, because it's not cool. We won't need legislation if we denigrate it properly. It will go away. Last I heard, talking trash about someone's puritan lifestyle is still legal. Rude begets Rude.

 

[Formaldehyde]

What I meant was, this process is not going on at as large a scale for, say, the Irish or Italians, as for those of other nations. There aren't as many first-generation Italians, just descendants of first-generation Italians whose ancestors have already gone through the assimilation process.

There are still quite a few Italians who have immigrated here in the past 70 years, although they have greatly diminished in the past few decades:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0201398.html

40s: 57,661
50s: 185,491
60s: 214,111
70s: 129,368
80s: 32,894
1996: 2,501

I have come into contact with many first and second generation Latinos and I would agree that this is the case. The people who came over as kids, or who were born here of immigrant parents, want to assimilate, at least as far as language is concerned.

They really don't have much choice if they attend public schools. That is why I am so opposed to offering public education in any language besides English. The faster they learn English, the faster they will assimilate.

 

[Coral]

Whichever stance you take on the issue, one should not fail to recognize the rudeness. It is not cool for a hot American chick to wear a miniskirt, tube top, and crucifix, shopping in Riyadh, nor is is cool to be a Parisian burka chick. Both are rude and similar affronts to the host nation.

The difference is that Saudi Arabia is an authoritorian theocracy that does not even pretend to give women the least bit of freedom, whereas France claims to be an enlightened Western nation that gives equal freedoms to all. You can't hold them to the same standard like that: It's not rude to wear a burka in France because France is generally accepted and expected to be tolerant, whereas you must wear the veil in Saudi Arabia because to do otherwise would mean death.

That's the difference. If we want to claim to be "better" than "them", we must hold ourselves to higher standards. Which means however intolerant you are, you will at the least physically allow these people to freely express themselves in our nation. We're supposed to be the most free, most enlightened nations on Earth, and if we are, we must not infringe on people's rights because of petty fears of their religion.

I want people to denigrate the burka in Paris or Dallas, because it's not cool.

You're so cool, you want people in America to disparage a religious symbol (because it's "not cool"), even though a founding principle of the United States of America is religious freedom. You may have the right to treat them poorly because you don't like their religion, but in America, we simply do not have the right to try to physically deprive them of their religion. So not only do we not need legislation, such legislation couldn't happen because it would be inherently illegal.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It's not rude to wear a burka in France because France is generally accepted and expected to be tolerant, whereas you must wear the veil in Saudi Arabia because to do otherwise would mean death.

That's apparently not the case even if you are a Muslim.

http://www.worldbusinessculture.com/Saudi-Arabian-Business-Dress-Style.html

Visitors to Saudi are expected to dress in a conservative, smart fashion. Men should wear suits and ties for business meetings, despite the heat and women should wear business suits (not trousers) which leave as little flesh showing as possible. Skirts should be well below the knee and preferably ankle-length. It is also advisable for women to carry a headscarf.

It is not advisable for men to wear traditional Saudi costume as this may seem bizarre or even offensive behaviour to local Saudis.

The correct observance of dress code is monitored by the Matawain (religious police) who are responsible for the enforcement of modest dress in accordance with Islamic law.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Saudi-Arabia-2553/2008/9/WOMEN-S-DRESS-CODE.htm

Therefore I would recommend you cover your body, arms and legs completely. Personally I would not have ventured into any public area of Tabuk without wearing my abaya - which is the black floor-length coat associated with Muslim women... As you are only visiting for a day I would strongly recommend that you refer back to the trip organiser who may well supply a loaned abaya for your ventures in Saudi - this really would be the best solution. In the absence of this (OR you purchasing one for your day trip - seems excessive ) you would probably be ok with a loose, full length skirt to your ankles and a very loose fitting, long sleeved shirt. Baggy full length trousers or a long sleeved loose full length dress would work too but nothing should be in any way figure hugging - people could get a bit upset with you if your female form is too obvious and dark colours would help you blend a bit more with the Saudi female townspeople... I would also recommend you carry a scarf while out and about - you may be hassled to cover your hair, although it's more likely to be your husband who would be hassled about it( !!! ) and in fact the incidence of that is certainly less in recent years than it used be. Whenever I visited Tabuk, even with my abaya and my scarf I always felt as if I stuck out like a sore thumb - but it has been about 4 years since my last visit so maybe things have changed a little... As to the question of swimming - Saudi women will sometimes go into the sea - but usually wearing their abaya's! They certainly won't strip off to a swimsuit within Kingdom ( maybe while out on holidays but that's another issue altogether ). So in any public areas where you may be viewed by others, no, you cannot swim in Saudi Arabia. HOWEVER, if your group don't have objections and you stop in a remote coastal area where you are unlikely to cause offense to locals then it's ok to have a swim - just be aware of any Saudi's who may come along and then cover up asap. The coastal regions of Saudi have amazing coral reefs and many expats regularly go swimming/snorkling/diving - you just have to be a bit careful.

 

[Lay_Lay]

I think a relevant question here is, are these specific types of immigrants much like the Italian and Greek immigrants you mention? They do not appear to be as excited to be here, nor do they appear to respect the established culture as much. Is this true, or just my (and many others') lack of understanding? Some of them believe that I am immoral because I do my girlfriend out of wedlock, or because she wears tight jeans? OK, you think we are immoral. That gives me just cause to not want you to immigrate here. Stay out of my life if you judge me as immoral. I don't apply a moral judgement to you. Seriously now folks. Get real. Let's have immigrants that add value to the nation. I fail to see how some random burka family adds anywhere near the amount of value to France, than most any other family waiting in line.

My city has a relatively large population of first generation immigrant Somali men and women. In general, they appear to respect our existing culture, and are willing to change their behavior according to how we live in Ohio. They are blending in, and I think they genuinely kind of like the USA and us as people. Somalian vs burka family is a huge difference, I know. That's kind of the crux of the problem. We probably should be declining these applications for entry, on the grounds of cultural differences. Really, why let the family in? She was wearing the burka when she handed you the application. Someone who values your culture enough to deserve entry, simply would not do that.

 

[cardgame]

Therefore I would recommend you cover your body, arms and legs completely. Personally I would not have ventured into any public area of Tabuk without wearing my abaya - which is the black floor-length coat associated with Muslim women... As you are only visiting for a day I would strongly recommend that you refer back to the trip organiser who may well supply a loaned abaya for your ventures in Saudi - this really would be the best solution. In the absence of this (OR you purchasing one for your day trip - seems excessive ) you would probably be ok with a loose, full length skirt to your ankles and a very loose fitting, long sleeved shirt. Baggy full length trousers or a long sleeved loose full length dress would work too but nothing should be in any way figure hugging - people could get a bit upset with you if your female form is too obvious and dark colours would help you blend a bit more with the Saudi female townspeople... I would also recommend you carry a scarf while out and about - you may be hassled to cover your hair, although it's more likely to be your husband who would be hassled about it( !!! ) and in fact the incidence of that is certainly less in recent years than it used be. Whenever I visited Tabuk, even with my abaya and my scarf I always felt as if I stuck out like a sore thumb - but it has been about 4 years since my last visit so maybe things have changed a little... As to the question of swimming - Saudi women will sometimes go into the sea - but usually wearing their abaya's! They certainly won't strip off to a swimsuit within Kingdom ( maybe while out on holidays but that's another issue altogether ). So in any public areas where you may be viewed by others, no, you cannot swim in Saudi Arabia. HOWEVER, if your group don't have objections and you stop in a remote coastal area where you are unlikely to cause offense to locals then it's ok to have a swim - just be aware of any Saudi's who may come along and then cover up asap. The coastal regions of Saudi have amazing coral reefs and many expats regularly go swimming/snorkling/diving - you just have to be a bit careful.

I wonder what they'd do if a woman or small group of walked into a remote town with bikinis?

 

[Lay_Lay]

I personally do not hold much value in being able to say "we are better than you." I don't need USA to be the #1 nation either. My aim would be to enjoy an all around awesome lifestyle, and could care less if someone thinks theirs is better, or even if their lifestyle really is better than mine. As long as mine rocks!

I actually do care what some US citizen puritan (Muslim or Christian) thinks, because they might affect me. And they think I am immoral. Yes, yes, I'm evil. No go away so I can enjoy my scotch, cigars, and hookers. OK kidding to make the point there. Burka dad and Mormon dad are always going to not respect me on the grounds of what they view as my 'debauchery', so by no means do I want more of them to immigrate here. They seek to cramp my style, my potential for awesome crazy good times, my fun, my freedom.
I want their applications DECLINED on those grounds. Again, I don't care if that makes my country look a bit less free in the eyes of the world. Primary goal, is me, my family, my friends, my country. That order. Eyes of the World. phhhhhhttttttt. Only matters if it affects my primary goal, which I think it mostly does not.

 

[Bill3000]

I actually do care what some US citizen puritan (Muslim or Christian) thinks, because they might affect me.

How would they effect you?

 

[Lay_Lay]

Puritan folks vote for legislation based on moral grounds specific to their religion, which is extremely opposed to my own viewpoints, and which always have the effect of limiting my freedom. That's how puritans effect me. I don't want more of them to immigrate here. It really is that simple.

 

[Elrohir]

If I chose to be a guest of an established culture, I would do what they do, even if I strongly felt they were immoral. Because that is how I would want them to act, if roles were reversed, and they were the immigrant in my country. I don't find clothing or lack of, nor consentual sex to be immoral. What a confusing assumption. Perhaps the tube top comment I made? I meant, that to be respectful of the local Riyadh population, I would not be so rude as to think that my woman should go out in hotty clothes. That is disrespectful of local custom and people.

Whichever stance you take on the issue, one should not fail to recognize the rudeness. It is not cool for a hot American chick to wear a miniskirt, tube top, and crucifix, shopping in Riyadh, nor is is cool to be a Parisian burka chick. Both are rude and similar affronts to the host nation. Yes, it is important to remain better than them, by not legislating against burkas, as they legislate against tube tops. /shameonthem

I want people to denigrate the burka in Paris or Dallas, because it's not cool. We won't need legislation if we denigrate it properly. It will go away. Last I heard, talking trash about someone's puritan lifestyle is still legal. Rude begets Rude.

Not consensual sex - but some random dude banging your wife. But if you're ok with that, then fine. You're consistent, I'll give you that. I just think your ideal for how people act is a recipe for strife and conflict, rather than any sort of cross-cultural understanding or communication. ("Let's denigrate each others traditions!" is hardly the best basis for the exchange of ideas or culture)

 

[Lay_Lay]

I understood the scenario. When in Rome, remains the answer. Or don't move to Rome (I would choose this in your scenario.)

Many dogmatic traditions have been wiped out in much worse ways than simply trash talking it. I understand your view, I am being mean. But I also think that sometimes, some harmful customs should die. We banned burning crosses if it is determined to be threatening (always will be deemed that way.) Without any cultural understanding of the USA, this would appear to be a freedom infringement. It actually is! It's acceptable to ban burning crosses, but it is not acceptable to ban the KKK from existing. Just as it is acceptable to ban burkas and yet permit Islam to flourish, minus the burka. Religions do change. Islam can change. And it will.

Meanwhile, I have different reasons for not wanting burka family to come to my country. More religious nut cases voting against lifestyle options I enjoy. No thanks!

 

[GoodGame]

I understood the scenario. When in Rome, remains the answer. Or don't move to Rome (I would choose this in your scenario.)

Many dogmatic traditions have been wiped out in much worse ways than simply trash talking it. I understand your view, I am being mean. But I also think that sometimes, some harmful customs should die. We banned burning crosses if it is determined to be threatening (always will be deemed that way.) Without any cultural understanding of the USA, this would appear to be a freedom infringement. It actually is! It's acceptable to ban burning crosses, but it is not acceptable to ban the KKK from existing. Just as it is acceptable to ban burkas and yet permit Islam to flourish, minus the burka. Religions do change. Islam can change. And it will.

Meanwhile, I have different reasons for not wanting burka family to come to my country. More religious nut cases voting against lifestyle options I enjoy. No thanks!

DUDE the KKK and their cutesy arson was terrorism (and the fact that it was a cross was quaintly irrelevant) and has no relevance to women wearing oversized housecoats that block their face because they voluntary choose to belong to a religion and interpret their religious obligations as such.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I wonder what they'd do if a woman or small group of walked into a remote town with bikinis?

We should send the fembots to Saudi Arabia and find out.

 

[Lay_Lay]

DUDE the KKK and their cutesy arson was terrorism (and the fact that it was a cross was quaintly irrelevant) and has no relevance to women wearing oversized housecoats that block their face because they voluntary choose to belong to a religion and interpret their religious obligations as such.

OK, so not a great example.

Ohio has outlawed marijuana smoking for many decades now, which infringes on my freedom of religion. My folks were born in Jamaica and we practice a spceific sect of Rastafarianism. I am not able to worship properly. So you see, in Ohio we do not actually have freedom of religion. If someone told you the USA has free religion, he lied or he thinks that Xtian+Jew+Islam = free religion. Haha, no. There are what hundreds, thousands of religions, many of which have some religious traditions that fly in the face of western culture. They are not welcome.

Are burkas one of them? We have our opinions. You know mine. I'd like to worship freely, but cannot. So what do I care if newly immigrated burka girl can?

 

[Lay_Lay]

If the commonly observed proper method of worship in my religion involves something that the host nation deems unacceptable, either morally or legally, the precedent is there to allow the law to suppress free religion, even in states that claim to be currently running the civic.. There is plenty of hypocrisy in it, yep.

Some of the arguments in this thread depend on the assumption that we are currently running free religion, and that we must protect every bit of it. Actually, we have the civic set at, "about as free as it gets", but it's not 100% free religion. This nuance point really crushes some of the save the burka arguments I read.

Should stick to arguing whether or not the burka is harmful at all, or harmful enough to bother banning. Not that we must at all cost protect an individual's ability to worship in the commonly observed proper way, in a new host nation. Because we already don't do that in many cases, including mine.

 

[Elrohir]

Lay Lay, what harm do burkas do, in and of themselves? I can't think of one at all, aside from being unsightly - and I think the same of nose rings, yet I don't think I can reasonably favor using the law to ban them.