Freedom for Catalonia?

[Winner]

Is it really that bad Winner? I mean, do you have alot of Jehovah Witnesses or something?

I am speaking in general. The interesting thing is that nationalism emerged by the time religion began to decline. It's nothing but a substitute for faith and it's just as irrational.

 

[Echse]

If they get there free Catalonia I want my Grand Duchy of Hesse back. When I am in the north or in the south of Germany I feel like in a foreign country and If I had a chance I really would want to live in a nation without Bavarians and Saxons.

Now seriously there are hundreds of people and cultures in Europe and most of them were repressed in some point of history but it makes no sense at all when everyone wants a free country in todays world no matter how cruel the past was. We should focus on our similarities and not our differences.

 

[gangleri2001]

Who's complaining?

The eastern europeans.

And about what?

Of 40 years of commie dictatorship.

If you want to take a jab at me with some analogy, try harder.

And you stop pretending that you are the "Messiah of common sense" just because you told a s****d teenager like Edelbroy to shut up.

Provided that the oppression is gone and the people are free, I don't really see a reason to endlessly argue about some historical injustices, it's silly.

Historical injustities? No, the problem is the current injustities, specially the economical ones. All this historical stuff is there because of this: to warm things up by remembering us what they did and what they're doing. Got it?

 

[Pangur Bán]

If they get there free Catalonia I want my Grand Duchy of Hesse back.

Did you say Germany should break up when Yugoslavia split up in the 1990s? When Montenegro split from Serbia a few years ago, did you say Hesse should split from Germany?

 

[Arwon]

It's easy to say that nationalism is poison if your nation is independent ... we who live in nations within states that do not respect our identity? In 1939 the Spanish state executed the president of Catalonia, Lluís Companys, for the sole reason of being the President of Catalonia, even today, Spain has not aborted the trial which sentenced him to die.

Jesus, by that logic, Spain shouldn't be part of Spain since every other crime of the nacionales hasn't been prosecuted either.

I think it's tremendously insulting, and quite bad taste, for you to pretend the crimes of the Civil War and Franco were somehow especially targeted at Catalonia or Catalan nationalism.

Spain on the other hand is an arbitrary collection of lands accumulated by the Castilian crown and its successors. There's no reason it should include Catalunya, but not Portugal. Catalunya has evolved a distinct linguistic national identity, one that is decidedly more credible than many independent European countries (like Austria, Bosnia, Macedonia, and so on). I'm not saying it shouldn't be independent, but it takes a lot of nonsensical thinking to try to discredit its claims to nationhood while upholding many others.

This is basically a true thing and it's where I part ways with Tanicius and Winner in this thread. Uniformity and centralisation just for the sake of it are empty goals. A lot of people like Spain's heterogenous national identity(ies) and the way different parts of the country are completely distinct from each other.

Of course many different identities exist in Spain - I just think it would be a shame if these different national identities, in all their beautiful and rich ambiguity, were eventually resolved in such a polarised and divisive way as a simplistic partition instead of, say, a formal federation. I think separation would cause both parts of the country to become more exclusive and absolutist in their conceptions of their own national identities and that would be sad.

Nationalism is dangerous when it becomes exclusive and all about insiders and outsiders. Beware of anyone who sees ambiguity and shades of grey, and tries to impose simple and final definitions on them.

----

Well, that and complaining about taxation and redistributive state apparatus is a pretty weak justification for an independence movement, especially when you don't hear, say, the Aragonese or Leonese arguing for independence just because their taxpayers are net contributors to the budget. Like I said earlier, if Catalonia wants more equity between its revenues and taxes, it should increase its unemployment rate and reduce everyone's pay or just give every Catalan cancer so they get a bigger chunk of health spending.

It's not like individual poor or sick Catalans don't have access to the same state services as poor Andalucians or Galicians do. They just have less of them there. I mean really, this is basic fallacy of composition stuff.

 

[Winner]

The eastern europeans.

Of 40 years of commie dictatorship.

Saying the same thing twice won't make it any more clever. There is a difference between acknowledging that the previous regime was wrong and (ab)using the history to justify nationalistic agenda.

And you stop pretending that you are the "Messiah of common sense" just because you told a s****d teenager like Edelbroy to shut up.

I am not pretending anything here...

Historical injustities? No, the problem is the current injustities, specially the economical ones. All this historical stuff is there because of this: to warm things up by remembering us what they did and what they're doing. Got it?

Yeah, I get it. It's typical for separatist-minded nationalists to see problems where they aren't and to blow existing problems out of proportions.

 

[mrt144]

Freedom from Catalonia more like it.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I support Basque independence, to preserve their language.

Catalonia however no. Aragon though, Yes.

 

[Winner]

Basques have been able to protect their language pretty well despite being part of Spain for hundreds of years. I really, really, really, REALLY don't see why should they stop speaking their language now when they've been given all the standard minority rights.

SERIOUSLY, separatism in modern-day EU is so stupid it gives me pain just thinking about it. All EU countries are democratic and none is trying to oppress its minorities in some blatantly evil way. We could argue about the policies in Slovakia or the Baltic states, but funnily enough, none of the concerned minorities there are demanding independence.

It's almost as if the more freedom, money and rights some minority has, the more likely it is that some *** start demanding independence. "Oh gee, we are giving too much money to the central government, that's oppression!!!" Yeah, right - so when we have a country with majority ethnic group X and minority ethnic group Y, in which there are rich as well as poor areas, then if the rich parts populated mainly by X people pay more than they receive, it's just OK, these are the rules, but if the rich part happens to have Y majority, it's suddenly not the same rules for everyone, but evil oppression and exploitation.

Riiiiight With that kind of logic in my arsenal, I demand independence for Brno. Our GDP per capita is way higher than that of the neighboring areas - we don't want to subsidize these redneck hellholes, right? Oh, and also the EU should be disbanded immediately since the rich countries are subsidizing the poorer ones - screw that blasted Brussels and its oppression!

 

[Munch]

I demand independence for Brno. Our GDP per capita is way higher than that of the neighboring areas - we don't want to subsidize these redneck hellholes, right?

This is exactly the point.

 

[ParkCungHee]

ah a fellow loyalist to the british crown!!

Ah, but shouldn't New York be loyal to the Stuart Crown?

I am categorically against any more countries appearing in Europe. We need less (preferably only one), not more.

Seriously, I don't get these separatist - don't they have anything useful to devote their time and energy to?

This coming from a Czech, presumably, and not a Czechoslovak? And certainly not a Habsburg subject?

 

[Arwon]

Normally I'm all about the ad hominems against Winner... but guys, come on. Not only are they unwarranted here, but the ones in this thread are just weak and missing the mark badly.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Normally I'm all about the ad hominems against Winner... but guys, come on. Not only are they unwarranted here, but the ones in this thread are just weak and missing the mark badly.

No, I'm not making the usual "Go back to Germany/Russia" comments.

The point is that the Slovaks and the Czechs WEREN'T terribly oppressing each other, yet it is agreed by nearly all observers, that the separation was a good thing for both parties. Contrary to what we usually hear about national independence, their economies are doing fine (in fact I bet more countries are held back by being too big rather then too small), and Czechoslovakia was itself a break off of a larger transnational entity, the Habsburg Empire.

All of this has worked out rather nicely for the Czechs, and the Slovaks and Austrians for that matter.

The tendency towards political independence and local identity isn't a problem for Europe, its a virtue lacking in much of the world.

 

[Arwon]

OK fair enough, but there's some marked differences there, not least of which was that the breakup happened during a time of massive political change (the equivalent would be chunks of Spain leaving in, say, 1977). And maybe Winner can correct me here, but I'm fairly certain the Czech and Slovak halves were very very homogenous, there was a Czech half and a Slovak half already. A Catalan or Basque state would have to work to create such homogeneity, which is one of the reasons a lot of people in those places are against the idea (and why others are in favour of it).

Catalonia would do well economically as an independent country (though, where they think they're going to get water from, I have no idea) so the economic viability counterargument doesn't really hold anyway.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Basques have been able to protect their language pretty well despite being part of Spain for hundreds of years. I really, really, really, REALLY don't see why should they stop speaking their language now when they've been given all the standard minority rights.

SERIOUSLY, separatism in modern-day EU is so stupid it gives me pain just thinking about it. All EU countries are democratic and none is trying to oppress its minorities in some blatantly evil way. We could argue about the policies in Slovakia or the Baltic states, but funnily enough, none of the concerned minorities there are demanding independence.

It's almost as if the more freedom, money and rights some minority has, the more likely it is that some *** start demanding independence. "Oh gee, we are giving too much money to the central government, that's oppression!!!" Yeah, right - so when we have a country with majority ethnic group X and minority ethnic group Y, in which there are rich as well as poor areas, then if the rich parts populated mainly by X people pay more than they receive, it's just OK, these are the rules, but if the rich part happens to have Y majority, it's suddenly not the same rules for everyone, but evil oppression and exploitation.

Riiiiight With that kind of logic in my arsenal, I demand independence for Brno. Our GDP per capita is way higher than that of the neighboring areas - we don't want to subsidize these redneck hellholes, right? Oh, and also the EU should be disbanded immediately since the rich countries are subsidizing the poorer ones - screw that blasted Brussels and its oppression!

This is a complete straw man. No modern nationalism in Europe is even remotely like this.

And anyway, even from a supposedly anti-nationalist POV (would like to see how anti-nationalist you are under "democratic" Russian rule), the EU arguably is the biggest reason the big European states should split up into their often more sensible component parts.

 

[nocho]

I would miss the league matches where Barça can humiliate Real Madrid too much to be in favour of a seperate Catalunya.

 

[BirraImperial]

I would miss the league matches where Barça can humiliate Real Madrid too much to be in favour of a seperate Catalunya.

This. There's nothing better than Barça pwning Real.

 

[gangleri2001]

Yeah, I get it. It's typical for separatist-minded nationalists to see problems where they aren't and to blow existing problems out of proportions.

No, it's a thing called propaganda, which every politic movement uses.

Catalonia would do well economically as an independent country (though, where they think they're going to get water from, I have no idea) so the economic viability counterargument doesn't really hold anyway.

The realistic secession plan is recovering the Franja de Ponent, which would give us complete control over the Segre. A well administered Segre (israeli style and so) has water enough for Catalonia. Besides this, we have also the largest dessalinization plant in Europe. Moreover, the distribution net of the fresh water from the rivers Ter and Llobregat is so well administered that provides water to Barcelona and its surrounding comarques (yep, all the water in the highly populated metropolitan area of Barcelona is water that comes from Catalonia only). Not to mention the planned connection of this net with the net of the Rhone river.

I hope that all this plus the facts that Catalonia is the rainiest region of the iberian mediterranean coast and has access to the Pyrenees helps you understand that an hypothetic independent Catalonia wouldn't need water from Spain. In fact, it'd be the other way around.

 

[Winner]

This coming from a Czech, presumably, and not a Czechoslovak? And certainly not a Habsburg subject?

No, I'm not making the usual "Go back to Germany/Russia" comments.

The point is that the Slovaks and the Czechs WEREN'T terribly oppressing each other, yet it is agreed by nearly all observers, that the separation was a good thing for both parties.

It was also the stupidest thing that has ever happened. People in both countries wanted to keep the federal state, there were no major cultural issues or ethnic tensions - Christ, both Czechs and Slovaks call each other the "brother nation" to this day. In most classes I am taking at my college this semester, about 1/4 of the students are Slovaks. Economically speaking, both countries are still very tightly connected, politically there is this weird harmony that goes against ideology - right wing and left wing governments have no problem continuing in the tradition of very close and cordial relations. Both countries recognize each other's language as official.

So... why the heck did we even separate, again? Because I am still not getting it, the problem was purely political - immature inexperienced politicians were stuck with a commie-designed federal system and instead of trying to reform it into something that could have worked (come one, it wasn't THAT hard), they chose the easy way out and carved countries for themselves.

If anything, Czechoslovakia is a shining example of how absurd nationalism is - it pits people who normally get along very well against each other. Every time some political monster needs to excuse himself, he starts using nationalistic rhetorics.

And BTW, Slovakia came || this close to becoming another Serbia in terms of democratic progress. They were very lucky to oust Mečiar (the idiot most responsible for the separation) just in time.

Contrary to what we usually hear about national independence, their economies are doing fine (in fact I bet more countries are held back by being too big rather then too small), and Czechoslovakia was itself a break off of a larger transnational entity, the Habsburg Empire.

Yes, and see where we ended up - Austria went Nazi, Czechoslovakia was raped and gutted, Hungary became a toy in hands of whoever was in charge in the region and Slovenia was joined with another multiethnic country - which itself suffered a terrible fate due to stupid nationalism.

Had A-H survived in some federal democratic form (yeah, it's utopia), we'd have avoided all that 20th century crap.

All of this has worked out rather nicely for the Czechs, and the Slovaks and Austrians for that matter.

Nicely? Central Europe was rolled over, divided and impoverished - all thanks to separatism and mindless pursuit of independence.

The tendency towards political independence and local identity isn't a problem for Europe, its a virtue lacking in much of the world.

Europe needs to move to a post-nationalistic era. It unavoidably sounds as a terrible cliché, but we really should be uniting, not fragmenting. When I take a look at the political map of the world, Europe looks totally absurd, as a mini version of the rest of the world.

OK fair enough, but there's some marked differences there, not least of which was that the breakup happened during a time of massive political change (the equivalent would be chunks of Spain leaving in, say, 1977). And maybe Winner can correct me here, but I'm fairly certain the Czech and Slovak halves were very very homogenous, there was a Czech half and a Slovak half already.

Correct. For all intents and purposes, both republics with separate administrative systems had existed under the federal framework and there were clear borders with almost no ethnic overlaps (which is funny considering how close the people are on the border).

 

[Arwon]

The realistic secession plan is recovering the Franja de Ponent, which would give us complete control over the Segre. A well administered Segre (israeli style and so) has water enough for Catalonia. Besides this, we have also the largest dessalinization plant in Europe. Moreover, the distribution net of the fresh water from the rivers Ter and Llobregat is so well administered that provides water to Barcelona and its surrounding comarques (yep, all the water in the highly populated metropolitan area of Barcelona is water that comes from Catalonia only). Not to mention the planned connection of this net with the net of the Rhone river.

I hope that all this plus the facts that Catalonia is the rainiest region of the iberian mediterranean coast and has access to the Pyrenees helps you understand that an hypothetic independent Catalonia wouldn't need water from Spain. In fact, it'd be the other way around.

So you guys don't heavily rely on the Ebro so much that you're on almost permanent water restrictions? Right. And your "realistic" solution is to take one tiny section of that already over-used river system for yourselves? Riiiight.