Freedom of debate
- Thread starter Ordnael
- Start date
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
The US Right has been inciting violence against others while claiming to be censored whenever they are asked to be respectful of others for decades, even before Trump made it risk-free to openly and regularly do so.
These are the same "free speech absolutists" who get into office and censor anything to do with minorities or non-right wing viewpoints in public spaces.
Or the cheers or deflections when someone on the right carries out political violence.
"Radical Left Violence!" this, "Woke SJWs Cancelling Everybody!" that, spare me the hypocrisy.
These are the same "free speech absolutists" who get into office and censor anything to do with minorities or non-right wing viewpoints in public spaces.
Or the cheers or deflections when someone on the right carries out political violence.
"Radical Left Violence!" this, "Woke SJWs Cancelling Everybody!" that, spare me the hypocrisy.
GoodEnoughForMe
n.m.s.s.
Time for some game theory.
Ok, so, there are two leading arguments here. I am open to both, but do definitely have my preferences. I know both sides can get pretty impassioned and emotional about it, but I believe we can all come to a reasonable conclusion.
I put forth that Detroit style pizza is better than Chicago style pizza.
“Hold on!” you might say, “that just makes me want to shoot you!”
I believe this can be worked out amicably. My argument is thus;
Chicago style is incongruent with the very concept of a pizza. An alien who came here and never saw any pizza and then was given pictures of 10 different pizza styles would be least likely to identify Chicago style as a pizza.
Chicago style simply takes too long. Pizza is the food of parties and gatherings and sporting events in which men gamble away their very economic livelihood. Why would I want to wait an hour for food? I don’t want to be at this dude’s house any longer than I have to be. The pizza should be done in 30 minutes or less.
Consider the crab; does not the crab represent evolutionary perfection? Would a crab want a slice of pizza bigger than itself? I think not.
Hamtramck, where Detroit style pizza originated, was a formerly Polish Catholic community that hated queer people. Now it’s a Muslim community that hates queer people. That’s tradition that adds that extra unctuous flavor to every bite.
Chicago already has the best hot dog. They don’t need two things they’re good at. That would break the entire fabric of baseball in Chicago.
Sartre once said “Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
It is up to you to give a meaning.” Would not a pizza forged in the old metal sheets of the automobile industry provide meaning? Out of car culture could spring something beautiful!
And finally, the right wing has launched a nationwide plot to silence the speech of all who are opposed to their authoritarian project.
So there we have it. Detroit style pizza is superior.
Ok, so, there are two leading arguments here. I am open to both, but do definitely have my preferences. I know both sides can get pretty impassioned and emotional about it, but I believe we can all come to a reasonable conclusion.
I put forth that Detroit style pizza is better than Chicago style pizza.
“Hold on!” you might say, “that just makes me want to shoot you!”
I believe this can be worked out amicably. My argument is thus;
Chicago style is incongruent with the very concept of a pizza. An alien who came here and never saw any pizza and then was given pictures of 10 different pizza styles would be least likely to identify Chicago style as a pizza.
Chicago style simply takes too long. Pizza is the food of parties and gatherings and sporting events in which men gamble away their very economic livelihood. Why would I want to wait an hour for food? I don’t want to be at this dude’s house any longer than I have to be. The pizza should be done in 30 minutes or less.
Consider the crab; does not the crab represent evolutionary perfection? Would a crab want a slice of pizza bigger than itself? I think not.
Hamtramck, where Detroit style pizza originated, was a formerly Polish Catholic community that hated queer people. Now it’s a Muslim community that hates queer people. That’s tradition that adds that extra unctuous flavor to every bite.
Chicago already has the best hot dog. They don’t need two things they’re good at. That would break the entire fabric of baseball in Chicago.
Sartre once said “Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.
It is up to you to give a meaning.” Would not a pizza forged in the old metal sheets of the automobile industry provide meaning? Out of car culture could spring something beautiful!
And finally, the right wing has launched a nationwide plot to silence the speech of all who are opposed to their authoritarian project.
So there we have it. Detroit style pizza is superior.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Coming back to the original topic, I would agree that free speech is important, and that we shouldn’t take it for granted.
Consequences don’t have to be lethal, and the most significant impact is likely to be self censorship (ie people won’t say what they think for fear of some penalty, eg. social standing, career). But suppressing people’s true feelings is counterproductive. Only when views can be aired and debated can minds be changed.
I also believe that censorship comes from both the left and right.
Consequences don’t have to be lethal, and the most significant impact is likely to be self censorship (ie people won’t say what they think for fear of some penalty, eg. social standing, career). But suppressing people’s true feelings is counterproductive. Only when views can be aired and debated can minds be changed.
I also believe that censorship comes from both the left and right.
dusters
Emperor
Charlie Kirk's case reminded me to read Fahrenheit 451 and to choose the book I would memorize completely in case reality as depicted in that book becomes our reality.
Also chess GM passed away/committed suicide due to excessive bullying and the international chess federation didn't do anything when bullying
started 1 year ago and might do the bare minimum due to public outrage.
More info at
Some people lost/lose jobs due to being canceled and de-platformed while some bully all day, cus they are backed by oligarchs (as in chess case).
There is a saying that "Laws are written by people who can afford to break them".
This cynical mindset
showing true colors of psychopaths and sociopaths has been getting exposed more and more due to Internet's speed of transmitting news across the globe.
Another cynical saying "beatings will continue until morale improves"
Song is meant to make the listener understand that history is cyclical, tyranny has been there for thousands of years and violence breeds violence, but you have to get rid of your anger
in creative, beneficial-for-all ways.
I'm currently still writing a book on current European education system. I'm giving an alternative while appreciating some things which are actually good in it.
Also chess GM passed away/committed suicide due to excessive bullying and the international chess federation didn't do anything when bullying
started 1 year ago and might do the bare minimum due to public outrage.
More info at
Some people lost/lose jobs due to being canceled and de-platformed while some bully all day, cus they are backed by oligarchs (as in chess case).
There is a saying that "Laws are written by people who can afford to break them".
This cynical mindset
showing true colors of psychopaths and sociopaths has been getting exposed more and more due to Internet's speed of transmitting news across the globe.
Another cynical saying "beatings will continue until morale improves"
Song is meant to make the listener understand that history is cyclical, tyranny has been there for thousands of years and violence breeds violence, but you have to get rid of your anger
in creative, beneficial-for-all ways.
I'm currently still writing a book on current European education system. I'm giving an alternative while appreciating some things which are actually good in it.
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Cloud_Strife
Deity
Having been on the recieving end of people expressing their "true feelings" i can only say that this is bull**** designed to give permission to air the worst forms of non-physical bigotry out there, not that yelling slurs and accusing entire minority groups of incredibly disgusting things would somehow prevent increased violence
I don't want to have to endlessly debate my existence with people who have an animus against trans people, it's humiliating, hurtful and dangerous but yet that is what is on offer here apparently.
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Cloud_Strife
Deity
People want to complain about being "cancelled" for their views, even though it's within living memory that even being openly gay or trans would lead you to losing your job or prevent lawful employment full stop.
Klaus Hergersheimer
Emperor
well there is some good news on the free speech front: TV writer Graham Linehan won't be charged with a crime in the UK for supposedly trying to incite violence.
TV writer Graham Linehan won't face charges for transgender post that sparked UK debate
Irish TV comedy writer Graham Linehan will not face charges after his arrest over social media posts critical of transgender people.
apnews.com
You’re right, freedom of speech can never be absolute. But I would still argue that the importance of freedom of speech is paramount and we should be mindful of where it is restricted.
Whilst horrible, I don’t follow as to how this relates to freedom of speech?
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Bad news for trans people, not like the british police had our backs to begin with, just the steady normalization of acceptable bigotry against us
Cloud_Strife
Deity
You should also be mindful of when it is causing harm, as it demonstrably is in britain.
I find it hard to care about people being "cancelled" for their awful views on certain minority groups when it's much harder to live actual life as a member of them.
It's no exaggeration to say we're regressing to the point where being openly trans or gay is dangerous both physically, socially and in terms of holding down a job, what's free speech defenders answer to that? Just to double down on the wave of bs fuelling such social regression?
I find it hard to care about people being "cancelled" for their awful views on certain minority groups when it's much harder to live actual life as a member of them.
It's no exaggeration to say we're regressing to the point where being openly trans or gay is dangerous both physically, socially and in terms of holding down a job, what's free speech defenders answer to that? Just to double down on the wave of bs fuelling such social regression?
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Fair enough. I am not a minority in any way (well I am Scottish in the UK, but that’s a superior minority of course…!)
I think we agree that bigotry should not be allowed (even when considering free speech). But we probably disagree as to what constitutes bigotry.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
It's not up to you to decide what, in my case at least, constitutes anti trans bigotry.
I don't need cis people excusing the worst excesses of anti trans rhetoric and advocacy because they aren't able to read between the lines and grasp what the end goal of so called gender critical is and what it would mean for trans people socially, medically and legally.
It annoys me to no end that some people, especially liberals, think advocating for bigotry is acceptable as long as it's done in a polite tone and you can see that happening right now with the ever increasing emphasis on trans exclusion or the increasing ethno nationalist focus being pushed in western media
I don't need cis people excusing the worst excesses of anti trans rhetoric and advocacy because they aren't able to read between the lines and grasp what the end goal of so called gender critical is and what it would mean for trans people socially, medically and legally.
It annoys me to no end that some people, especially liberals, think advocating for bigotry is acceptable as long as it's done in a polite tone and you can see that happening right now with the ever increasing emphasis on trans exclusion or the increasing ethno nationalist focus being pushed in western media
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Ajidica
High Quality Person
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
- Messages
- 22,511
@Cloud_Strife I'm a bit confused as to what you actually are proposing or would like to see done.
CFC, and indeed every social media platform, is private entity and can more or less do what they like regarding regulating of speech.* However, to what degree the government can regulate an individuals speech is a very different question. It almost sounds like you think governments should be allowed to dictate what people can post - up to including criminal action - for being a mean, offensive, bigot.
*I think. I remember something about if they engage in too much regulation of speech they lose the protection of being a neutral facilitator and cross over into a publisher, but I don't think that is applicable here.
CFC, and indeed every social media platform, is private entity and can more or less do what they like regarding regulating of speech.* However, to what degree the government can regulate an individuals speech is a very different question. It almost sounds like you think governments should be allowed to dictate what people can post - up to including criminal action - for being a mean, offensive, bigot.
*I think. I remember something about if they engage in too much regulation of speech they lose the protection of being a neutral facilitator and cross over into a publisher, but I don't think that is applicable here.
amadeus
rad thibodeaux-xs
I think that is an interesting proposition but in practicality unenforceable. If a forum about cars doesn’t allow topics on sports, that doesn’t make it a magazine, and so on.
I’m not a lawyer so I’m not sure of how exactly the definitions are used but I would think a publisher would be defined as an entity that reviews content for the purposes of quality control before it is made public.
I have to say quality control here because we might be approaching a squishy legal point at which LLM algorithms may start to be employed to pre-review submissions for what are classified now not as publishers. And to that, that this site and others have language filters (although whether one could classify individual parts of language as content is entirely its own question.)
Snowygerry
Deity
Does seem to be a debate that mostly resonates among our US members...
Ordnael
I'll be the roundabout
I don't laugh at the death of anyone? Do you?
Did it felt ingenious to compare being fired from a job because of celebrating another human's death to someone being murdered for their words?
Totally not a misinterpretation of what I wrote, totally...my bad...you win
Lately I am getting to understand your ply, your fear and your hatred...but I just can't agree on prosecuting people for freedom of speech within the boundaries of not asking x or y to drop dead.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Uh huh
Ordnael
I'll be the roundabout
Believe what you will but I was being sincere.
We have been butting heads for a while haven't we?...The result is that I have changed my stance about a number of trans topics...you should be proud
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