From great questions...

[Sir Donald III]

...come great ideas.

In answering Provolution's 1st question in the Presidential "Debate", I came up with an idea to have us stay the course on Wonder Building.

This would be Code of Law Section D:1

a. A Wonder or Small Wonder build is Vetoable by the voting populace, ONLY IF the city building it loses no more than an "acceptable" number of shields or turns of production by switching to a different Unit, Improvement, or Wonder, and by a Majority of "Stop Building" Votes in a Veto Poll.
a(1). If there is an occasion where a Unit, Improvement, Small Wonder, or Wonder requiring more shields than have already been devoted to the project does not exist, then the Standard in subsection (a) will not apply.

b. A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:
Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.
If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.
b(1). If an investigation of a foreign city reveals that that city would build a Great Wonder before the Japanatican City in contention for that Great Wonder, then the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply.

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the Standard referenced in section (a) and posting the Veto Poll.

d. The War Ministry may call for a Veto Poll, regardless of build status, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica is within 2 turns of attacking that city. However, in such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack. The Culture Ministry is still responsible for creating the Veto Poll.

Basically, once we decide to build a Wonder, (or a Small Wonder,) and reach a "point of no return", as set by the Culture Minister, the Wonder stays until either we are unable to build it, or we are faced with imminent threat.

Comments?

 

[Provolution]

I back this up. I am for democracy, but not for mob rule. We need to protect Wonders against random absence form the forums, so that the naysayers do not use every turnchat as an opportunity to stop a wonder. When a wonder is decided on, simple majority polling every turn should not be enough to switch it to a swordsman.

 

[Ashburnham]

I like it.

Wonders are not your everyday granary or marketplace, they are towering cultural achievements and should be protecting from fickle whims. We have only to look at the husk of the Great Spotlight in Zojoji to remember how much we can lose by a simple ill-timed poll.

I think a little fine tuning of your wording is in order, SD3, but overall I think this is a very good idea.

 

[TimBentley]

I like it. Maybe you could change the names in 1b to $WONDER0 (it seems like $SMALL_WONDER0 could fit sometimes as well) and $CITY1? Anyone who makes mods or is strange like me and looks in the text files for no good reason understands what I'm talking about. This is not a serious request, by the way.

 

[Sir Donald III]

As a would-be modder myself, I appreciate that someone knows what I'm going for.

So what think you Provolution and Ashburnham? Shall we up the requirement to 55% (CoL) or 67%?

 

[Cyc]

Right now, although I agree with the premise, your proposal is to inflexible. It doesn't allow for enough of the different situations that could arise. For instance, what if no investigation was held on a city that was building the Wonder we were building and they beat us too it? What does your Law say to do in that case? Also, b(1) is incomplete. If the the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply, what does apply? These things need to be stated if you are going to be making a concrete Law.

 

[Nobody]

cant hurt (the democracy game) <--- just writing so i have ten characters, but now i have too many oh the shame *stabs self in stomac*

 

[Gregski]

Sounds like a good plan. The basic concept has to be that once we start a wonder, only a real emergency may be allowed stop it. However, why don't we add something like the following to counter the threat specified by the last point of the proposal (someone could improve the wording):

The ministry of war is responsible for setting the level of military
defence of the region and the city in particular so that even in the face
of an unexpected attack by an enemy, the region and city can be defended
without sacraficing the wonder.

 

[MOTH]

This is exactly the type of thing that each minister should be establishing for their term in office. In my platform running for culture minister I intend to discuss and poll these very criteria.

My exact opinion is that I am in favor of this premise because I have not seen this type of planning, discussion, and polling done by ministers prior to this term.

As for specifics on the override, I would argue for a 67% level of "stop building" for Great Wonders and a 55% level for Small Wonders with a quorum of at least 37% of the census having voted. I would also change it to $LEVEL of non-abstain votes (although it means some math must be done)

Wonders are a major investment and the criteria to waste a significant portion of the investment must have significant approval.

 

[blackheart]

Good work SD3.

 

[Epimethius]

I am for mob rule. The people's will is final, and anything that gets in its way should be beaten into small pieces. I don't like this.

 

[Sir Donald III]

Sorry for abandoning this for a whole week or so... Anyway, a few ideas have popped in from the thread.... New Text in Bold:

a. A Wonder or Small Wonder build is Vetoable by the voting populace, ONLY IF the city building it loses no more than an "acceptable" number of shields or turns of production by switching to a different Unit, Improvement, or Wonder, and by a Majority of "Stop Building" Votes in a Veto Poll.
a(1). If there is an occasion where a Unit, Improvement, Small Wonder, or Wonder requiring more shields than have already been devoted to the project does not exist, then the Standard in subsection (a) will not apply.

b. A "Veto Poll" will be set up for 48 Hours and have this format:
Should we continue to build $WONDER0 in $CITY1 ?
Continue Building
Stop Building
Abstain.
If a majority of the Citizens vote to "Stop Building", the city's build queue is returned to its respective Governor. Otherwise, the Wonder build still stands.
b(1). If an investigation of a foreign city reveals that that city would build a Great Wonder before the Japanatican City in contention for that Great Wonder, then the "Veto Poll" in subsection (b) will not apply, and the Culture Minister can decide to abort or continue, wihtout a poll.
b(2). If a rival nation finishes a Wonder that a Japanatican city is constructing, then the build will be changed to any project that requires more shields than are currently in the shield box. If this is not possible, then any project may be completed. The Culture Minister and the Respective Governor are encouraged to list their contingency preferences in the TCIT.

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the Standard referenced in section (a) and posting the Veto Poll.

d. The War Ministry may call for a Veto Poll, regardless of build status, if units from a nation at war with Japanatica is within 2 turns of attacking that city. However, in such an instance, if the Veto Poll passes, the War Ministry may only order a Unit build that can be built within 1 turn (including shields already committed) that can attempt to hinder the enemy attack. The Culture Ministry is still responsible for creating the Veto Poll.

 

[Octavian X]

Unnecessary. I don't particularly like it when such procedure is defined by law - it creates too much room for misinterpretation, confusion, CC possibilities arising from minor missteps. The will of the people should be done. This law clearly stands in its way, as the decision of previous voters if basically superimposed on the decision of new ones.

It also points out a basic flaw in our polling system - you can't force all the people to vote all the time.

 

[Provolution]

I agree with the intention of this proposal, wonders should be hard to repoll when they are decided on. Octavian, you cannot make some of us run through the Forbiddden Palace or Great Lighthouse hijacking once again. That you blame this to WOTP is another story, but I am never going to argue something that some idiot can change over night with a lucky poll. People need some preditability when arguing wonders, anarcho-syndicalism or Spartacist political dogma should be exterminated, in real life and in computer games, that is my 5 cents.

 

[Cyc]

But Minister Provo... I only wanted two cents. Although I disagree with Octavian X. This law does promote the will of the people on both ends of the spectrum. With the guidelines it imposes, the previous voters will is protected with restrictions or standards listed. The will of the new voters is protected by the opportunity for change that it allows (under certain restrictions). So I don't understand the statement. I'm also trying to figure out the last comment, but we'll let that go. Must be something you're putting in yer doughnuts these days.

SDIII, it looks much better with the new additions. I'd like to make another change, but I need your help with this one (Section C.). Here's what I've come up with so far:

c. The Culture Ministry is responsible for setting the Standard referenced in section (a)
1. when he's writing the next Veto Poll
2. at the begining of his Term
3. whenever he damned well feels like it
4. when SDIII tells him to
and posting the Veto Poll.

What do you think? Any ideas?

 

[Provolution]

Cyc

That was mostly jest But the point is, I like SD3's proposal to handle both sides, both positivists and revisionists, so that wonders gaining support to build, should be harder to close down at the point of the least resistance.

 

[Cyc]

Ooops! Sorry, Provolution. I've just reread my post above and it seems I'm directing the post to you. I'm not. The only part that directly concern you was up to the first smilie. From that smilie to the next, I was speaking to Octavian X.

I pretty much agree with what you said (in a Peter Max kind of way...)

 

[mhcarver]

I have no problems with this proposal

 

[Sir Donald III]

Cyc:

I don't think Option 4 would work too well

Option 1 is, to me, a subset of Option 3, though it only becomes valid at the moment the poll is created.

So I see only 2 options:
1. At the time the Build begins (i.e. the Culture Ministry assigns a standard per Wonder before the Start of the next Turnchat.)
2. At the beginning of the Term.

Thoughts of the gallery?

Persoanlly, I favor my option 2, though I can see where my Option 1 would be a bit more flexible.

And again, the Minister has the discression as to whether the standard would be expressed as a number of Shields, or a number of Turns based on uncorrupted SPT.

 

[Ashburnham]

So I see only 2 options:
1. At the time the Build begins (i.e. the Culture Ministry assigns a standard per Wonder before the Start of the next Turnchat.)
2. At the beginning of the Term.

I think SD3's 1st option (setting the standard at the start of the build) makes the most sense. Anything else is either too inflexible (as is the case with setting standards at the beginning of the term), or too arbitrary.