Future of Caveman2Cosmos

[Faustmouse]

And lead. They used to use lead strips in hats and people were going nuts if they wore hats too much. A la 'the Mad Hatter' character.

My father had to work with Mercury as well. Just from the fumes of it his teeth became lose and would've fallen out, if he hadn't stopped working there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

28, but I don't understand why you ask? I know you are , but if you are going to tell me you know how bad pollution was in the middle ages from personal experience, I'd be quite surprised I assume you asked because I think pollution was worse back than as it was (in your view), right?

Curiosity mainly. I figured you were younger and had a degree of some kind. But also was interested in what your parents and grandparents in particular might have told you about pollution in their time.

The timeframe I mentioned here in the USA was a period of ramping up of industry that cause a similar ramp up in pollution. But that pollution was not every where. Mainly in the Big cities that had major industries. Especially the industries for making iron and iron products and in turn the combustion engine. Pre WW1 this was in well defined areas of early industrialization, mainly NE USA. Elsewhere the water and air was clean. Then when WW2 came a knocking it escalated even more. The "sleeping giant" was awakened by Japan. And America's industrial might and expansion took off. So did pollution in those same areas. But again other parts of the nation were not suffering from these problems. Rivers ran clean, wild life thrived and the air was clean and crisp. By the time I was graduating from High School (1970). The automobile industry was pumping out automobiles by the millions. And Large metro areas all over America was starting to see the adverse effects of uncontrolled combustion. But still the vast majority of land in America was not under attack by direct pollution like the big cities were. How badly you were affected by pollution was relative to were you lived.

As for living in the Middle ages, some think I'm from that time period. But even then pollution was relative to where the large cities were. Europe was evidence of that back then. With 1,000s of ppl living in those big cities and when every morning the lady of the house would dump the chamber pot into the street that had no real gutters....well the consequences of doing that are marked in History. But the country side was not under the same malady. So it again was all relative to where you lived.

Now even earlier times around the Mediterranean the Greeks and Romans knew how to remove the waste from their cities. But somehow the Europeans just did not (for the most part) adopt these 2 example cultures means of sanitation. Yet the knowledge was still there from this earlier time.

So yes pollution modeling in the mod has to be a process of ramping so that by the time you the player hit the industrial Era you are facing stiff problems. But those same stiff problems don't belong at the beginning of the games early Eras. When Pollution was introduced it was under the assumption that Every hut or workshop that made Anything Had to pollute. And the penalties were and . But when AIAndy introduced the property system there became more than just the and . But the values assigned previously before the new system were never re-evaluated. That time has finally came to the Mod. Which I know you are aware of. Because now there are substantial Penalties coming into play for ignoring these Property systems.

Well this has taken me 35 minutes to type. And I'm starting to lose my focus, so I'm going to stop. (yes I'm a Terrible typist and it frustrates me very much cause it hinders me from being articulate enough to get a coherent point across most of the time)

 

[Thunderbrd]

When we visited Mesa Verde last year we learned the park was not originally slated to become a national park due to the native ruins in the cliffsides there but due to the peak at the center of the park that can see for miles in every direction. It is rather impressive, the view, but as they explained there, haze from coal power plants has infected the region severely and has dramatically hindered how far one can see. True to what they said, it was very visible how much damage had been caused to the air quality in all directions. And it hasn't let up. Not all areas are immune just because they're a ways outside the centers of population. But it's true that there are still some places where the air is cleaner. Just that diffusion has really made it tough to find much of the clean air I used to experience regularly as a kid.

 

[Faustmouse]

I agree on most points you say Joseph. But I think Civ models that pretty well: Rural Pop 6 cities inside a big Forest are way less polluted than pop 50 cities with major industry in it. And pollution spreads through the adjusting plots, but this does not cause any problems in C2C IIRC.

May I ask you, with those early (everything before Industrial) pollution creating buildings, have you reached autobuildings like Major Global Warming or Ozone Depletion or stuff like that? Because I don't think these belong in those eras. So early polluting buildings can be seen as a "tutorial" for players to keep an eye on and see that problems are getting worse when you go full industrial. Maybe the worst Pollution autobuildings should require the Industrialism tech then? Some (like acid raid or smog, and most water pollution ones) should still be possible even in ancient times; just because you have a sewer system that gets wastewater out of your city doesn't mean it doesn't cause much harm anymore.

Again I'm with you that pollution wasn't as bad in the middle ages as a city with ALL pollution autobuildings would suggest. But as you said, the biggest cities back then with lots of iron works and many people in there WERE polluted places and they'd deserve some of these autobuildings.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I did not build the Global warming series or Acid rain etc. of course. Hydro I think did. All I'm trying to do is keep a somewhat balanced approach that will not destroy every AI by Modern Era. Like we had evidence of just last fall, SO and a couple other Bug thread save games.

It is still possible for the AI to fall into this again but not as badly as before. And the player is now more vulnerable now too. Again as evidenced by player grumblings/posts and even in my own ongoing test games. Games that are actually played and not autorun all the time.( Auto run games have a place in testing but not much more than for seeing AI tendencies because the Human interaction is not there.)

 

[Faustmouse]

I did not build the Global warming series or Acid rain etc. of course. Hydro I think did.

Yeah I know it was him, not you. But I meant something else: In your games, during medival times, came these buildings into effect? Were they autobuild because your pollution was actually high enough to reach them? Because if so, this is a problem and should be changed; either by giving those autobuildings a prereq tech or by increasing their threshold.

 

[raxo2222]

Now that V38 is officially released, what are your plans for V39?

 

[raxo2222]

What era simulates best glory and dangers of real life era equivalent?
What is least accurate in these matters?
Not counting Galactic and later eras, as these have speculative physics (faster than light travel/communication, time travel, reactionless propulsion, subnanotechnology, high dimensional manipulation) and engineering.
That is in game Prehistoric is about hunting and fighting against disease.
In real life it was pretty much this.

As for Industrial, Modern and Information eras pollution and ignorance exist.
There is no electricity property though.
Blackouts should have worse consequences as era progresses.
There is also industrial revolution - that is we replace workshops with factories.
Workshops shouldn't be obsoleted until equivalent pepper's megafactory is unlocked.
Crafters can be obsoleted when equivalent factories are unlocked.
That is there are 4 tiers of producers for some manufactured resources:

Crafter, Workshop, Factory and Megafactory.
They unlock in lets say Prehistoric, Medieval, Industrial and Information eras.
Obsoletion would happen in Industrial, Information and Transhuman eras.
Actually they may get unlocked in era earlier or later so their obsoletions would be shifted accordingly.

Unless for example they would autoupgrade instead of obsolete on given tech.

 

[Noriad2]

Not sure if electricity should be a property. Either you have electricity or you don't. Having more electricity than you need doesn't really do anything except it will probably lower prices and make delivery more reliable.

 

[raxo2222]

Not sure if electricity should be a property. Either you have electricity or you don't. Having more electricity than you need doesn't really do anything except it will probably lower prices and make delivery more reliable.

Well negative crime doesn't do anything. Positive crime makes trouble.
Negative electricity property would cause problems. Positive electricity might have small productivity boost and extra energy consumption (increased demand)

Mainly it could affect Housing pseudobuildings and resource manufacturing.

On unrelated note: looks like China has high water and air pollution properties

 

[raxo2222]

I'll bump up this thread since V40 will be released soon.
In long term each era should be challenging outside of military too.
Now once apes start researching things (on beginning of game humans are pretty much glorified apes) they wont stop until total mastery of omniverse.
That is even without war you should be watching out.

I reread this thread. Making Industrial - Nanotech eras as realistic as possible when it comes to various threats will be problematic.
Scientists: Problem is serious, we need to address it.
Team X media: END OF THE WORLD IS NEAR!!!!!
Team Y media: Problem doesn't exist and never existed.
Internet: Flip coin between three, and pick one, that matches your existing views.

Do we should ban extremists and conspiracy theorists from this thread?
Now what if China and India were as developed and democratic as Europe?

 

[Esfera]

Nanotech eras as realistic as possible when it comes to various threats will be problematic.
Scientists: Problem is serious, we need to address it.

I know that this kind of conversation tends to focus around global warming/climate change, however, I personally think that superbugs, unchecked AIs, solar flares and asteroid collisions should be given more attention by the media and by activists/lobbyists. Those issues are arguably just as a dangerous as global warming, and yet, no politician seems to give a damn about them.