Future of Caveman2Cosmos

[Faustmouse]

Raxxo, why don't you instead start being creative and post your ideas for future crimes and pests(control) with detailed building stats etc?

 

[raxo2222]

Raxxo, why don't you instead start being creative and post your ideas for future crimes and pests(control) with detailed building stats etc?

Well I was more interested in general feel of future eras.
For example Prehistoric is fight for survival. Diseases and animals are major threats.

Also I posted link to Future Timeline on peppers space modmod, so he can have goldmine of ideas for Information - Galactic eras.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok, I don't know what era you're in Joe, but the following is the prerequisite set for
Police Squad (UNIT_RIOTPOLICE)

• BONUS_FIREARMS
• BONUS_AMMO
• BONUS_RUBBER

Maybe rubber is too demanding but Firearms and Ammo seems to be pretty much top priority for so many things, including most units.

Given the insight we just made into the Surgeon, however, perhaps we do need to make it so that these prerequisite bonuses also go on the Police Station. I'll remove the Rubber prereq - I suppose they can get around that although that was for the armor.

Police Cars

• BONUS_FIREARMS
• BONUS_AMMO
• BONUS_AUTOMOBILES
• BONUS_TIRES
• BONUS_DIESEL

And it requires either the Police Station OR the Police Precinct.

We can forgo enforcing access to these on the police station because we've at least established a minimum of Firearms and Ammo on the building to fix a lot of potential reasons for this fallback problem.

The police station requires furniture, and bricks or concrete. No other buildings. We already fixed furniture.

In summary, this is the same basic problem as the Surgeon displayed earlier today. The fallback unit's unlocking building needs to have the same minimum basic prerequisites as the unit itself so that you aren't tempted to construct the replacing building (cutting you off from the earlier unit(s) as well) without being assured of being able to then train at least the simplest form of the units that building unlocks. It's taken a while for this design rule to finally become obvious. I need to look at this for the Police Precinct as well.

Neither the Police Station nor that Police Precinct obsolete and currently the Police Precinct doesn't have ANY bonus prerequisites, so the only way to cause problems is for them to be constructed, replacing the buildings before them when you can't train the units they unlock (and thus also bar the previous units - which COULD also be given an OR prereq of the next building up in the hierarchy to further eliminate the possibility of these collapses, though I don't think that will be necessary.)

This should all be in the Partisan thread by the way, But......

I'm in Modern Era.

And why are you using ForceObsoleteTech tags for Sheriff and Riot Police at TECH_MECHANIZED_WARFARE ? Way too soon and the Forceobsolete breaks the chain.

I had just gotten Sheriff's office built and was hurrying Sherriffs in New Orleans (which has the 5 Thugs in it from Asoka). I'm not the Tech leader because I'm using No Tech Handicap Option and the AI is using Tech Diffusion. So I'm getting Mechanized Warfare researched and Boom no more Sheriff's in New Orleans because you ForceObsoleted them way too soon. In fact the Whole ForceObsolete for this LE line IMHPO is dead wrong to use. I don't like your line of reasoning either. It's another example of Theory Programming with out enough actual game play to see if it works. It's broken again imhpo. These LE units are going Obsolete and forcefully removed Long before they should be. It seems that the premise was Industrial and Modern Eras would be long time running Eras. Well with the New Eras added They Are Not any more. So when Crime is reaching it's peak performance the counter LE is being ForceObsoleted!

And It's not the resource Rubber that is the problem. That is Not going to fix this disconnect that you have purposefully programmed into this Line of units. You have penalized any player, Human or AI that is lagging in tech by Late Industrial to Modern Era, to be bereft of usable LE units when Crime is escalating. No wonder the AI builds the Crime giving buildings, they get tons of gold from them that they then turn around and try to build Useful LE units that they can not keep because the timeframe for usage is very small. Vicious cycle.

There is so much more again imhpo that is wrong here. And the statement "getting to use earlier units at a cheaper cost" as a reason for this is misguided. You have to build more to fight the advancing Criminal units but instead of seeing that cost (and how it totals up to be just as expensive) you've cut it off completely. We still have a Major problem here. And ForceObsolete Needs to be removed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Moved threads.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ok, I don't know what era you're in Joe, but the following is the prerequisite set for
Police Squad (UNIT_RIOTPOLICE)

• BONUS_FIREARMS
• BONUS_AMMO
• BONUS_RUBBER

Maybe rubber is too demanding but Firearms and Ammo seems to be pretty much top priority for so many things, including most units.

I have not got that far in a game but shouldn't rubber be replaced by plastic by then?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have not got that far in a game but shouldn't rubber be replaced by plastic by then?

Rubber should not be replaced by Plastics but by Synthetic Rubber if you don't have a Rubber resource. Trouble is every building that gives a new resource is also laden with excessive Air, Water and Flammability malus. It's Out of Control. Hydro and Mr. Azure had no idea that repetitive +5, +10, +15 of these 3 Properties on scores of new factories and mills had no counter balance buildings to absorb all this added weight. The assumption was All factories pollute for All time. Wrong idea, bad idea, now we pay the price.

 

[Faustmouse]

IMO, I don't think it is "out of control". I NEVER had a house burn down event except sometimes in the PH era. But after that: Nada. Pollution gets up quite a bit, but you don't need every factory in every city; if you spread them through your empire and build anti pollution buildings, I usually stay below 400 for both. Maybe one city gets above it, but this one will get the National Park NW and builds more factories then. Also I mostly have huge amounts of and so even if I get over 700 Pollution or more it doesn't really matter. Just my 2 cents on this to get another ones opinion instead of just you own

 

[tmv]

this one will get the National Park NW

... aaaaand you're out of coal. Which might be a bad thing.

 

[Faustmouse]

Yeah, strategic choice. It is really no issue to lose access to coal in one city... Plus IMO this was removed recently.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have not got that far in a game but shouldn't rubber be replaced by plastic by then?

We use both rubber and plastic today so why would plastic replace rubber?

 

[tmv]

Plus IMO this was removed recently.

Correct. My mistake. I thought about the smiths and losing coal in that city might have been a big problem - so removing this "property" might have been a really good thing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Also I mostly have huge amounts of and so even if I get over 700 Pollution or more it doesn't really matter.

This from a recent game that is fully updated? And "huge amounts of and " will disappear very fast too.

 

[Faustmouse]

This from a recent game that is fully updated? And "huge amounts of and " will disappear very fast too.

Yes. But I also plan ahead early, leaving forests everywhere on the map and build most anti-pollution buildings early and skip pollution buildings if I don't need them. This also includes stuff like the Nutella Factory if I have trouble with pollution; you can build it later. I like this part a lot, as it is very tricky to navigate through! But I can see that problems for the AI may arise here Really a shame IMO...

 

[JosEPh_II]

The flood of Air and Water Pollutions that come with the factories age will have to be dealt with after the v38 release. Also there are Early buildings that are way out of line now for the Mod with the amounts of Air, Water, and Flammability they give. When these get toned down there will be a better progression and also give the AI some room to work with. Right now even in the later Ancient early Classical you can run into Pollution problems of the magnitude those eras never experienced.

Example: How does a hat "hut"/workshop early game give +3 of both Air and Water Poll.? Is the Hat maker thowing dead cacasses in the well or out in the streets to rot? What? Arbitrary assignage back when the mod did not get past modern era. There are sooo many like this that have to change.

 

[Faustmouse]

Water pollution WAS pretty bad much earlier than the Industrial Age. I'd go the route and adjust the Water Pollution per Pop higher. Think about what would happen if you don't have sewage treatment plants....

 

[JosEPh_II]

Faust I got to ask, how old are you? Do you have actual real life experience from the mid 1900's, say 1950s thru the 70's? How about grandparents? Where they living at the turn of the 1900's?

 

[Thunderbrd]

The flood of Air and Water Pollutions that come with the factories age will have to be dealt with after the v38 release. Also there are Early buildings that are way out of line now for the Mod with the amounts of Air, Water, and Flammability they give. When these get toned down there will be a better progression and also give the AI some room to work with. Right now even in the later Ancient early Classical you can run into Pollution problems of the magnitude those eras never experienced.

Example: How does a hat "hut"/workshop early game give +3 of both Air and Water Poll.? Is the Hat maker thowing dead cacasses in the well or out in the streets to rot? What? Arbitrary assignage back when the mod did not get past modern era. There are sooo many like this that have to change.

The plans to address this are unveiling in the research requests thread. I agree, these things are highest priority to correct. I feel it starts with a little evaluation of the bonuses we have but primarily this is all to form the basis of establishing a system that makes the whole structure work. I'll talk more directly rather than just in responses about the way I think we can resolve this subject and numerous others with one underlying plan.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Example: How does a hat "hut"/workshop early game give +3 of both Air and Water Poll.? Is the Hat maker thowing dead cacasses in the well or out in the streets to rot? What? Arbitrary assignage back when the mod did not get past modern era. There are sooo many like this that have to change.

Mercury if i remember from the design of those buildings. The production and use of it.

 

[Faustmouse]

Faust I got to ask, how old are you? Do you have actual real life experience from the mid 1900's, say 1950s thru the 70's? How about grandparents? Where they living at the turn of the 1900's?

28, but I don't understand why you ask? I know you are , but if you are going to tell me you know how bad pollution was in the middle ages from personal experience, I'd be quite surprised I assume you asked because I think pollution was worse back than as it was (in your view), right?

Not to brag, but to give you some informations about my background: I'm holding a Master's Degree in molecular biotechnology and my thesis was about biofuels. I've been to China and have seen how bad the smog can be; I know the mortality rates from Air Pollution from actual scientific papers. I've also travelled Southeast Asia for quite some time and as diver and due to my background in biology I can tell you that marine life there is not all unicorns and rainbows due water pollution. Also certain cities have - by european / US standards quite poor water quality (drinking water and nearby rivers).
We are lucky to life in countries were pollution isn't a big deal (although a certain guy that wants to make coal great again might change that a bit), but in other countries that are not was developed, it sure is.

Edit: By all means, I appreachiate it a lot if you readjust those cookie cutter values on factories, as I also think this is poor design. But the pollution challange and how to handle it is an important aspect of the game; just like the hunt in the prehistoric or siege warfare in the middle ages :/

 

[Thunderbrd]

Mercury if i remember from the design of those buildings. The production and use of it.

And lead. They used to use lead strips in hats and people were going nuts if they wore hats too much. A la 'the Mad Hatter' character.