Future of Orbis - Civ5 incarnation discussion

[Ahwaric]

One thing to keep in mind: While of course someone will mod in religion in some form, there is no reason to expect (or want) that form to take the same shape as it did in Civ4.
Religion in Civ4 is absolute crap. [...]If (when) someone takes the time to develop a religion system, I sincerely hope they try something new.

Agreed. But for the lack of a better one, I would take even Civ IV base type. It is a start.
In general, Civ V lacks a way to interact with other player's territory. No religion, no corporations, no reason to build roads (no international trade routes).

Yeah, it would be fun I would love something like Romanian/Slavic flavour for Vamps (those misterious castles in mountains, peasants that are afraid to go out after dark... I love Strahd from Ravenloft setting)

More or less the flavour I have in mind, but I want peasants to love their vampire protectors - and have a reason to it. Like the real medieval transylvania - a place where people come looking for a better future

How about including race modeled (to lesser or bigger extend) on Warhammer Skavens?
I do not mean necessarilly "rat-people" (why not? it would not be bad, but not needed), but rather a civ that combine chaotic, dangerous magic with crazy technical engines... and additionally has some focus on stealth and mystery. It could be secon high-technology civ, with very different feel than Mechanos (opposite on Law-Chaos axis)

Good idea, but there are several problems:
mod is not even in alpha stage. In fact, no mod yet
Art - no skaven I think
It will require some work to allow researching both magic and tech for just one civ (I have a good idea I think how to make only one side researchable)

But thanks for the idea, and we will discuss it in the future. I am noting all the ideas I like - for later. So people, please do not stop from posting them.

With many civs having real-world-inspired flavors, it should be possible to just place them on Earth map.. so no trouble making 'official' map for mod

Even though the tech tree is inspired by real world tech, I do not want it to be exactly our world. So, all personal names and pedia descriptions will probably be changed, plus the official map will not be earth...

Personally I would love to have not lizards, and not evil humans, but something based on Yuan-Ti theme - with they focus on sacrifices, mutations, subterfuge, and (at least in some settings) fervent worship of dark gods

I though I will add both lizards and aztec/maya/inca-like civ. But Yuan-ti is really good idea.

One thing I'll say: 14 civs is already quite a few. Get them developed and unique, before trying to add more.

Wise words. In fact, I am not even sure if all 14 will be in inital version.
Plus, not sure how unique these will be at start. Probably more than standard Civ5 civs, but only time will tell.

For now, I more or less finished my research and edit of techs, buildings & units. Basic code for some civs, including leaders and their traits is also in.
I have posted screenshots in second post. Also will update third (civ descriptions) in a few minutes EDIT: Done

No I need to rework policies - the Civ5 approach to government/values (info for those that do not know Civ V)
Plus the hardest/most annoying part. Making it all into an actuall mod - not an easy task in Civ V.
Then I will start adding more unique things.

 

[Kalina]

Agreed. But for the lack of a better one, I would take even Civ IV base type. It is a start.
In general, Civ V lacks a way to interact with other player's territory. No religion, no corporations, no reason to build roads (no international trade routes).

I think those things will come in first/second expansion to ciV. And as you're going to have a lot of work to do anyway, you might consider waiting till they will do work for you and modifing it later

Even though the tech tree is inspired by real world tech, I do not want it to be exactly our world. So, all personal names and pedia descriptions will probably be changed, plus the official map will not be earth...

Still, all civs already added have direct real world inspiration and modifing existing things is taking less time then making new ones - because you can make new things only where you want. And alternative history is so much fun, especially when you don't have modern era to make things too real. Gaimain's Study in Emerald is so good not because it's a kingdom ruled by Old Ones, but because it's victorian england ruled by those creatures.

Wise words. In fact, I am not even sure if all 14 will be in inital version.
Plus, not sure how unique these will be at start. Probably more than standard Civ5 civs, but only time will tell.

Assuming all civs can choose between magic and tech, you might want to emphasize this choice with UB/UU. For example, elves get factories with human slaves with tech and archmages with magic. As long both options are equally good, it should make intresting choice.
Of course, problem with this is most games are lost or won before reaching final third of tech-tree.
From what I know, city-states in ciV can be unique to an extent (I didn't play it yet, but seen unique power of Venice city-state in mod forum) so some civs can be make city-states. Unique enough to make game more intresting, but taking less time to create.

 

[Imuratep]

Is it possible to disallow buildings/units unless you have a certain social policy? If it is you could make magic and industry two mutually exclusive paths. Thus you can either have factories or archmages.

 

[Kalina]

Is it possible to disallow buildings/units unless you have a certain social policy? If it is you could make magic and industry two mutually exclusive paths. Thus you can either have factories or archmages.

Or build your archmages and change civics to allow factories (unless it doesn't work this way in ciV.. I still need to buy it :>). But maybe it's possible to make techs exclusive - if you discover A, then you can't discover B ?

 

[Ahwaric]

I think those things will come in first/second expansion to ciV. And as you're going to have a lot of work to do anyway, you might consider waiting till they will do work for you and modifing it later

That is the plan

Gaimain's Study in Emerald is so good not because it's a kingdom ruled by Old Ones, but because it's victorian england ruled by those creatures.

But creating a new civ loosely inspired on real one has one big advantage - freedom. If it is victorian England I need to explain why some things are different, or explain why do I insist calling it England.
If it is Tourainne - it is just Tourainne, and it is as it is because I said so. Or at least I can change more without explanation.
Same applies to Doviello and Ulfednar. I can make Ulfhednar value their elders and worshipp Odin - which I could not easily do with Doviello, as they worship Cammulos and feed their elders to the wolves...

Assuming all civs can choose between magic and tech, you might want to emphasize this choice with UB/UU. For example, elves get factories with human slaves with tech and archmages with magic. As long both options are equally good, it should make intresting choice.

That I want to do for at least some civs. Some do not make much sense with one of the choices, i.e. magical dwarves or technological wood elves, but whenever possible I want to try it.

Is it possible to disallow buildings/units unless you have a certain social policy? If it is you could make magic and industry two mutually exclusive paths. Thus you can either have factories or archmages.

Not yet, but that is the first thing I am going to code when dll is avaliable.
I did not want to disclose it just yet, but here you are, thinking just as I did.
So, I might as well show you the policies. Check the attached picture.
Enlightement will allow the tech path, Arcana magic one. They are exclusive, so you can't follow both. Arcana is avaliable at medieval era, Enlightement at renaissance.
Despotism, oligarchy and republic are exclusive, too. They are only policies avaliable in the ancient era, so at the the start you will have to choose one.
I am not sure about maritime and commerce, especially regarding the names.
Maritime is planned to enhance fleet, maritime trade and coastal cities, while commerce (or should it be named craft?) will improve all cities regarding productivity, defense and land trade (it reflects developing guilds).
In general, if you have any ideas regarding names and effects, let me know

Or build your archmages and change civics to allow factories (unless it doesn't work this way in ciV.. I still need to buy it :>). But maybe it's possible to make techs exclusive - if you discover A, then you can't discover B ?

I partially answered your question above, but it is also worth noting that it costs a lot to change policy - you loose advancements you had in that branch and the culture you invested to get them is gone. So, a really bad idea to do so....

Of course, problem with this is most games are lost or won before reaching final third of tech-tree.

Yeah, but let's hope we can change that, at least slightly.
But both magic and tech will be avaliable from the start. Tech is always in, and first spellcasters might be avaliable at shamanism.
Theurgia will enhance priests - give them (and all spellcasters) acces to healing magic, plus maybe some divine intervention spells...

From what I know, city-states in ciV can be unique to an extent (I didn't play it yet, but seen unique power of Venice city-state in mod forum) so some civs can be make city-states. Unique enough to make game more intresting, but taking less time to create.

Truth be told, I did not touch citystates yet. I want to make them unique, but not sure how much is really possible.

By the way, good news. Thanks to lemmy101 it is now possible to create total conversion mods in Civ5. So, Orbis 2 is now a mod, all changes are in and I can start filling the techree. Slowly, as I have to work from time to time
But I am really optimistic, and it is possible that the mod will be released before Christmas...
Unfotunatelly, it also means that there are now 99,9% chances I won't come back to modding Civ4.

 

[Opera]

Wow. I like the sound of all that very much.

 

[Pickly]

This is one I'll be checking out once I get a new computer. (Current one runs Civ 5 really, really, really slowly, and is otherwise running up against newer game system requirements).

 

[Tschuggi]

At least one reason to buy civ 5

 

[Kalina]

But creating a new civ loosely inspired on real one has one big advantage - freedom. If it is victorian England I need to explain why some things are different, or explain why do I insist calling it England.
If it is Tourainne - it is just Tourainne, and it is as it is because I said so. Or at least I can change more without explanation.
Same applies to Doviello and Ulfednar. I can make Ulfhednar value their elders and worshipp Odin - which I could not easily do with Doviello, as they worship Cammulos and feed their elders to the wolves...

Right. Civs from FfH weren't based on any particural real-world civ, but rather new creations. You know, it's different thing to have "Verrata - typical merchant republic, like Venetia but different" then "Kuriotates - giga-cities ruled by boy who is really a dragon". For me, first option is much more flavorful.
And I really enjoyed flavor thread for Orbis 1. I was too afraid to write in English when first one was alive, so I hope we will get same thing for Oribs 2

Yeah, but let's hope we can change that, at least slightly.
But both magic and tech will be avaliable from the start. Tech is always in, and first spellcasters might be avaliable at shamanism.
Theurgia will enhance priests - give them (and all spellcasters) acces to healing magic, plus maybe some divine intervention spells...

But you don't have to make choice until Medieval age. Maybe put little bits earlier - for example "Shamans" and "School" from Ancient Age use same resource (from what I know, buildings and units use resources, right ?) Shamans upgrade to better spellcasters later so if you build them, you have better position when you choose magic. But with right tech/civic School provide better bonuses, so it's good to build them earlier if you plan to choose technology.

Truth be told, I did not touch citystates yet. I want to make them unique, but not sure how much is really possible.

From what I see in ciV mod forum, they can have UUs/UBs and UPs. Should be enough

 

[Ahwaric]

Wow. I like the sound of all that very much.

Thanks! Your opinion means a lot.
Hope Orbis2 will live up to the expectations
Also, you already have some influence on it - Verrata was added when I was thinking on new maritime civ - and I found your Venezia mod.

At least one reason to buy civ 5

Again, hope to not dissapoint too many people.

[...]For me, first option is much more flavorful.

Both approaches have advantages. But is easier to make belivable entity (be it person or civilization) if it is based on real one.

And I really enjoyed flavor thread for Orbis 1. I was too afraid to write in English when first one was alive, so I hope we will get same thing for Oribs 2

Well, you can see my english - so please not be afraid.
And this thread has two major purposes. First, to inform people that Orbis is not dead, simply morphing.
Second, to get feedback and ideas. A little brainstorm (and mind-drain)

But you don't have to make choice until Medieval age. Maybe put little bits earlier

Thanks for the suggestion - I might do so (once magic is in).

From what I see in ciV mod forum, they can have UUs/UBs and UPs. Should be enough

That is right. Seems I will have to take a look at the city states

 

[Calavente]

Hi.
I really really like your plans for Orbis II.

I'll have a question though.

will you stop the tech tree at steam-punk XIXth century style ?
Or will you try to go a little farther in the mid XX ? machine-gun, airplane, radio, tanks, destroyer, cars ...etc
I realise it is hard to go up there as you have to develop alternatives techs for civilisation as advanced but oriented into arcane.

But What I really would like is the choice to develop, even in tech line, into a lighter than air airforce/transport/commerce or a heavier than air airforce, being able to make semi-binding tech choices on many places of the tech tree.

Another thougth I had would be to not forbid a tech developpement/loss of units...Etc when changing orientation.
I'd rather have the cost risen. I'll explain :
a scientific/technic orientiented civ will have a hard time developping arcane techs..

Like : arcana gives 50% reduction to arcana techs and units, and give a +100% or +200% cost to enlightment techs.
(+500%; as if it were a era farther : for an arcane civ, renaissance era enlightment techs cost a as much as steam era arcana techs, and medieval enlightment oriented techs cost not as much as renaissance era techs (as enlightment doesn't exist) but costs still much more than if you didn't chose arcana. The reverse being true.)
and if you have neither arcana nor enlightment : arcana techs are costly techs (2-3 times normal techs,) and enlightments techs are also costly : 2-3 times normal techs); so if you want to be competitive, you'll have to decide to go arcana or enlightment.

then later, if you have enlightment and developped musketeer :
they cost you 100prod to build; and you need 6000science to research rifles.
you change to arcana ;
arcane techs are easier to build, but muskets costs you now 200prod or 300 prod, and you'll need 15000-18000 science to get rifles.

maybe you can make a mechanisms so that one would not want to change too many times from tech trees.
an idea :
arcana rise enlightment techs by 20% permanently, and 130% while in arcana, while reducing arcana techs by 50%-multiplier ; changing to enlightment removes the 130% but the +20% is still here, and now, as you changed to enlightment, you add a +20% permanent to aracana techs, +120% while in enlightment mod and -50% to enlightment techs .. bu you still still have a +20% to enligthement techs : the change is not as interesting as before : you have only a total of -30% reduction toward enligthment...

Then, changing orientation too many times leads you to have a really prohibiting tech modifier on both lines.

 

[Ahwaric]

will you stop the tech tree at steam-punk XIXth century style ?

I am going to stop at the XIX century steam punk. I ma not that interested in the napoleonic and later eras. I put parts of it only to acces steam punk and partially victorian era.
I want to preserve certain charm of a world of hand-made goods, with gas lights and steam engines.

Currently the borderline techs are electricty, combustion engine, replacable parts, machine guns. These I do not feel completly comfortable with.
But I might add some technologies from a later era, like steam computers After all, Babbage designed his analytical engine in 1837.
It will require creating alternate history though, as I need some techs out (for example plastics) and some social changes non-existant, while some later techs, or even fictional ones working.

The arcane route is yet another story. I am sure it will not be in Orbis 2 at the start - as there is no magic system. So, at first Orbis 2 will be alternate history mod, with reviewed technological history - to better reflect the real world (but compared to completly arbitrary tech tree of standard Civ5, it is not saying much )
It will also contain some fantasy elements, and will end as a steam punk mod.

Magic and alternate research routes will be added later. AT the monment I think I will do it that you can research only one.
It is simpler and better for the AI - I do not think it is possible to make AI understand it shouldn't change policies too much as effects stack.
In general, I have learned that simple rules are a good idea: from the coding perspective, players (especially new ones) and AI, too (easier to code AI rules).

The idea of dual research is tempting though. I will see itf I find the way to incorporate this, and will remeber your post. But IF not for everyone, It would be nice for at least some civs.
However, I might settle for civs that unlock similar effects on both sides, but slightly more magical/technlogical, depending on the route. For example skaven from the warhammer world use warp stone in different ways: to power their siege engines, to conduct biological experiments or to enhance spellcasters...

Biological experiments... Now that is an idea

Edit: Forgot to respond about aircrafts. The zeppelins will be in - that is what aeronautics tech is for Not sure about heavier than air aircrafts.
But, check the attached image. It might give some of you an idea about possible victory condition. Actually, already coded in...

Regarding choices along the tech tree, while it is a nice idea and gives a lot of space for flavourfull choices, there are two problems. First, not sure how to code it (but I might go simply for exclusive techs, should be doable once dll is out), plus it might be tempting to overuse it.

But again, I am going to first prepare skeleton of the mod that uses only xml/sql/lua. Then play it, let people test it, and then decide how to expand the mod - and then code the right tags.

 

[tesb]

[smartass]

I am going to stop at the XIX century steam punk. I ma not that interested in the napoleonic and later eras.

"To Robert Fulton What, sir, would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck I pray you excuse me. I have no time to listen to such nonsense."

-napoleon I

steam was fairly new in the napoleonic era so saying you are not that interested in it, but in steampunk seems a bit contradictory.
[/smartass]

do you plan on making mutually exclusive tech routes (magic <-> steam) or do you plan for the player to have everything in the endgame?

 

[Ahwaric]

[smartass]
-napoleon I
steam was fairly new in the napoleonic era so saying you are not that interested in it, but in steampunk seems a bit contradictory.
[/smartass]

I put parts of it only to acces steam punk and partially victorian era.
I want to preserve certain charm of a world of hand-made goods, with gas lights and steam engines.

Well, I am interested in including steampunk and technological advances, and tried to pass through napoleonic era with as little contact as possible. So no revolution french-style, plus if I can replace riflemen/musketmen units with something else, I will.
I would like to keep the unit types as it is until renaissance - in Orbis you get pikeman as melee and arquebusier as gunpowder ranged unit - it is simply more advanced crossbowman

I want Orbis to follow european tech advancements up to XVII century. Later I am including only chosen elements, many of which are of steam-punk origin. Plus of course, separate route of magic advancement. And yes, I currently plan to make the routes exclusive, with different scientific (?) victory conditions.

 

[Kalina]

The idea of dual research is tempting though. I will see itf I find the way to incorporate this, and will remeber your post. But IF not for everyone, It would be nice for at least some civs.
However, I might settle for civs that unlock similar effects on both sides, but slightly more magical/technlogical, depending on the route. For example skaven from the warhammer world use warp stone in different ways: to power their siege engines, to conduct biological experiments or to enhance spellcasters...

It might be possible to do with dynamic tech costs, like in cIV Rhye's. For example, in Industrial Era, there are 10 generic tech, 4 magic techs and 4 steam techs. Discovering one of magic techs increases cost of all steam techs by xx% and vice versa. And you still have to adopt certain civics to even be able to reasearch them, so you're paying cost in culture anyway. It costs you a lot, but if you really, really want you can still have both steam and magic techs.

Biological experiments... Now that is an idea

Maybe as summoned units ? For example, wizards can summon demons (or angels?) and technology spellcaster can create ogre or other mutated beasts. In general, this can be used as a sort of 'magic' for technology side.
And certain evil technology countries can be using it as a punishment, changing criminals (or not) into half-machines half-humans. Like Remade in China Mieville's books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remade)

let people test it

I like this part

 

[Opera]

Glad I already influence Orbis 2

By the way, are you gonna keep the "one unit per tile" thing? I like it but I know many people would rather not play the game than have that feature.

 

[Jarrema]

I would love to see some 'magical engineery' (for lack ofd better word) - like Frankenstein's monster, living brain in the jar, machine with a human parts attached to it, etc.
It is not exactly 'steam punk', but I will love it. Some really interesting ideas of this kind were implemented in Ravenloft d&d setting.

 

[Quetz]

Sounds great. Really looking forward to egyptian-style undead

 

[Davor]

I haven't read all the posts yet. Since this is not based on Orbis, one, I would strongly suggest not to call this Orbis 2. You will have alot of people upset that Orbis 2 is nothing like Orbis.

I strongly suggest you change the name. That would be like saying you made a Star Wars movie, but there is no empire, no rebels and no force. It wouldn't be Star Wars then. Just an idea.

I am loving your mod.

 

[isitanos]

Sounds like great plans for Civ V!

I understand that it's less motivating than a fresh new project, but could you also do a last round of bugfixing for Orbis 1? At least the most glaring ones such as the Dimensional III spell not working. It's the most mature FFH modmod out there (and it gets a lot of play judging from the FFH forum), so I'd hate to see it stop a few steps from perfection.