Future of Orbis - Civ5 incarnation discussion

[Ahwaric]

It might be possible to do with dynamic tech costs, like in cIV Rhye's.

I am concerned about two things here: too complicated mechanics and making AI understand how it works. But still, I might do it once it is time to implement the dual tech tree.

Maybe as summoned units ? For example, wizards can summon demons (or angels?) and technology spellcaster can create ogre or other mutated beasts. In general, this can be used as a sort of 'magic' for technology side.

I would love to see some 'magical engineery' (for lack ofd better word) - like Frankenstein's monster, living brain in the jar, machine with a human parts attached to it, etc.

I think Frankenstein monster will be tech version - just as it is in Orbis 1. But I might end with two kinds of biologica engeenering. First, technological one (cyborgization and frankensten type). Second, magical (alteration of form - just like Patrian mages created lizardmen in FfH2 universe)

Glad I already influence Orbis 2

By the way, are you gonna keep the "one unit per tile" thing? I like it but I know many people would rather not play the game than have that feature.

I am torn here. I was disgusted by it at first, but it has some advanteges. There is more place for tactics on the battlefield.
On the other hand, one unit per tile makes moving a real pain. I think I will remove the limit at least or civilian units, and check what modded versions will be created by people.

I haven't read all the posts yet. Since this is not based on Orbis, one, I would strongly suggest not to call this Orbis 2. You will have alot of people upset that Orbis 2 is nothing like Orbis.
I strongly suggest you change the name. That would be like saying you made a Star Wars movie, but there is no empire, no rebels and no force. It wouldn't be Star Wars then. Just an idea.

Well, I do not want to sound harsh, but:

• as you said, you did not read the whole thread,; also, you are new to orbis and only beginning to understand it (I noticed the prolifering threads ).
  So, how do you know that Orbis 2 is not based on Orbis1? I care to disagree. Both orginate in my own twisted mind, so there is a big connection... The only thing you can tell, it will not be based on FfH2 (but still is going to be inspired by it)
• Once upon a time, there was a mod called FfH. And then came FfH2. Trust me, these were really different (I played both). But FfH2 comes from the experience Kael and the Team got when creating FfH1.
• Civ V is different than CivIV, and both are different than CIv1. So? They are still called Civ.
• Orbis is my mod. While I try to listen to people, I am sometimes quite stubborn. This is one of such times...
• also, see below

I understand that it's less motivating than a fresh new project, but could you also do a last round of bugfixing for Orbis 1? At least the most glaring ones such as the Dimensional III spell not working. It's the most mature FFH modmod out there (and it gets a lot of play judging from the FFH forum), so I'd hate to see it stop a few steps from perfection.

Flatterer But thanks
Truth be told, I have been thinking of providing one last patch...
Partially to remind myself of various aspects of Orbis1 and deciding what do I want to carry over to Orbis2
Unfortunatelly, I am currently approaching deadline in my real life project. So, currently I am spending most of my time with word editor and Quantum GIS. Not much time for any modding.
But that will change next week, so I might start some work then. Of course, there will be no new features, but I will try to fix some bugs and maybe import some changes from base FfH2.

 

[Kalina]

I am concerned about two things here: too complicated mechanics and making AI understand how it works. But still, I might do it once it is time to implement the dual tech tree.

I certainly understand, there is nothing I dislike more then overly complicated mechanics
Dynamic tech costs are pretty simple IMHO - each magic tech gets ''increases cost of all steam technologies by xx%", so further you go along magic tree, more expansive steam techs get. As long as AI takes tech cost into consideration when choosing what to research, it should understand it.
Of course, it's very likely it's impossible/difficult to code it, so not worth the time

And btw, how fast/slow ciV runs ? I'm wondering if I will have to buy new computer for Orbis II

 

[Davor]

So, how do you know that Orbis 2 is not based on Orbis1? I care to disagree. Both orginate in my own twisted mind, so there is a big connection... The only thing you can tell, it will not be based on FfH2 (but still is going to be inspired by it)

I finally read the whole thread. I am saying to change the name in what you said here.

So, general description.
Orbis 2 will no longer be based on FfH2 (especially as I do not think there will be FfH for Civ5 ). Instead, it will expand the things that were unique to Orbis. I want the whole mod to reflect the real world history, but have a fantasy elements, too.

I thought when I read that this will reflect the real world history, but have fantasy elements, I took that as basing on real world events, so it will be non fantasy enviroment. Since you said it would have "fantasy elements" I tread that as just a little bit of "dash" or sprinkling of fantasy.

So the intial shock I would believe is it would look like a non fantasy game at first. Maybe I read what you said wrong, but that is how I interpeted. If I was wrong, I am sorry.

I am looking forward to what you do for your new project.

 

[Valkrionn]

I personally LOVE the 1upt rule, and would keep it.

One thing to consider: Selection Groups were completely removed. Along with all code (a massive amount) to support them.

Meaning if you remove the 1upt limit, you have to reintroduce selection groups or live with moving a stack unit by unit. Workers are also unable to contribute to the same project on a tile.

 

[Calavente]

@Davor :
well, it'll look like real world ciV... until you meet the neighboring High elves city-state and they declare war on you because you cut too many trees in your territory....
and later, when the firsts shamans appear.... doing almost nothing, but still a little bit of something vanilla ciV can not even fathom...

 

[MISER SVM]

Sorry if this is totally irrelevant, but as for an Asian shapeshifter civ, The Journey to the West would be a great inspiration! Also, there is a whole lot of Chinese, Manchurian, Korean and Japanese mythology on fox spirits (no furries, they usually shifted into humans wholesale). Maybe you can have an evil Daoistic* Civ which masquerades as an enlightened Confucian empire which is really run by a cabal of power-hungry fox spirits or other shapeshifters? Or evil in the way Sun Wukong was before he was subdued by Buddha? Alternateively the could just be neutral... and based around some sort of elemental magic (like a world in which feng shui and qi gong actually work- but maybe that's too much like the original Dao).

But that'S just an idea of course.

*In popular Chinese imagination, even moreso nowadays, Daoism as an organised religion is seen as secretive and often "weird", with all that lore about mighty Daoist priests and sages being able to get awesome supernatural powers and the quest for immortality (an idea that is not alien to most religions, only expressed in different ways- cf. Christianity) and all that...

 

[Tschuggi]

Isn't there a totally superawesome mod (modmod?) with name 7 Kingdoms with the background of China in it's rather short history of the 7 kingdoms forming the nation? There would be plenty of stuff to use!!! I once played it but then was captured by ffh2 and its modmods, but this was one of the best mods I ever played. Very stable, super new warfare-concepts with heros influencing the whole battle-group etc. Would be very very very useful.

Greez,

Tschuggi


EDIT:
It's not 7, but 3 kingdoms. Look here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=346

 

[lemonjelly]

Woah, this sounds great!
And, between Eden, Orbis2, Naeralith Reborn, and mine and Jheral's secret project, there's going to be a lot of rather different fantasy mods!
And, loads of places to share/steal code to and from!

 

[CladInShadows]

I definitely like the idea of a mesoamerican style civ. I wouldn't go entirely lizardmen, but maybe a human civ that is rumored to be controlled behind the scenes by a group of humanoid-lizard creatures. It can be these revered leaders that the sacrifices are made to, and towards the end game they can begin to show themselves, at which point the civ begins to get strong lizard units.

 

[Jarrema]

I definitely like the idea of a mesoamerican style civ. I wouldn't go entirely lizardmen, but maybe a human civ that is rumored to be controlled behind the scenes by a group of humanoid-lizard creatures. It can be these revered leaders that the sacrifices are made to, and towards the end game they can begin to show themselves, at which point the civ begins to get strong lizard units.

yessss
controled by... Yuan-ti?
more snake-like than lizard-like, but IMHO also more climactic. Ideally for the role of 'power-behind-a-throne'

 

[Zdarg]

Some thoughts about religions: looks like it's possible to implement them without complicated coding.
After researching religion-founding technology, you get a free building (temple) in a random city. It will mean religion spreaded into this city. Temple allows to build misisonaries who are able to be sacrificed to build a temple in another city (just like priests in Orbis 1). Assuming state religion may be implemended by building a national wonder.
We will lack "natural" spreading of religions this way, but it still better than nothing.

 

[Valkrionn]

Religions can easily be implemented in any number of ways, no need to do it the way Civ4 did; Particularly not when the only way to spread the religion would involve a large amount of micro, lacking the autospreading people are used to.

 

[isthmus]

I'd just like to pop by to say the plans for Orbis2 look amazing! Really looking forward to it, even with the basic initial designs proposed. I really like the alternative/fantisised history angle. Seems really interesting.
Really enjoyed the cIV mod, here's hoping the ciV will be even better

 

[Imuratep]

Yeah for example you could create a new commerce type named faith that unlocks benefits like social policies or can be spend to build religious unit or buildings.

 

[Tschuggi]

Yeah for example you could create a new commerce type named faith that unlocks benefits like social policies or can be spend to build religious unit or buildings.

look for wm 9.0

 

[Valkrionn]

Tschuggi... This discussion is about Civ5.

For that matter, look for RifE 1.4. Faith is a very common idea.

 

[Imuratep]

Yeah my thought was inspired by the knowledge of this being in RifE AND WM. But most importantly I'd love something similar to social policies as it is cool and you can easily make the branches (FoL, RoK, AV or whatever the religions will be) mutually exclusive as certain social policies already are right now.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah my thought was inspired by the knowledge of this being in RifE AND WM. But most importantly I'd love something similar to social policies as it is cool and you can easily make the branches (FoL, RoK, AV or whatever the religions will be) mutually exclusive as certain social policies already are right now.

Honestly, the idea you're proposing (Social Policy branches as religions, with Faith used rather than Culture) is an idea a few people have had... And is a very good one, IMO.

An example would be here (more indepth than what I would do, as I prefer fixed religions to "build your own religion", but hey): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=391739

 

[Tschuggi]

Tschuggi... This discussion is about Civ5.

For that matter, look for RifE 1.4. Faith is a very common idea.

I know, I just wanted to tease him for a totally new faith system... in wm9. For Orbis2 I will buy ciV - Awharics' ideas are great. I already love orbis. Orbis 2 with better AI and all his new ideas: i will end without job and wifejust one other turn.

 

[arkham4269]

Okay, just the other day I cranked up Orbis because frankly I'm already bored with Civ V.

Things I'd like to see. I'm not sure how they all can be done, just putting ideas out.

* Religion: I agree the Civ IV system is weird. I personally think it works more for those of us who like our Civ more historical. I believe religion can give certain perks (like you get to build temples) but it can also be negative (going to war with a country of the same religion for example) and also I think it could be used as a mechanism for random or "historical" events. This brings me to my next point.

* Events: Keep up with the events. If there is one aspect I loved about Europa Universallis was events gave you a choice. Sometimes it was the choice between the lesser of two evils or a some bad you accept for the good you wanted. It would be difficult, but I think it would be nice to have a sort of 'event tree' where the choices you make in the game along with things like your civics and religions present would affect your events.

* National Guard: Now that Civ V has a way for cities to defend themselves and units are expensive, I really think it is time for a more realistic system about units. Standing armies are expensive! Throughout history kings went broke fielding armies. Mercenaries were used more often than not because once the war stopped, you stopped paying them. Some ideas:
-> Earlier system to buy mercenaries. Maybe tie this in w/City States. Different types have different mercs for sale. Thus those militaristic states are important.
-> Militia System: Have a 'inactive' mode for units. They cannot move and take a turn or two be become active and it cost money to do so. However it is cheaper to do then buy/build a unit from scratch and the maintenance cost is very minimal.

* Economics and War: I think there needs to be more of a penalty for long drawn out wars early in the game. Back in the day there wasn't the logistics or economic system that could fund long drawn out wars, especially since most of your fighters where also your farmers. One way to get around this for the war-mongers is through another thing you could do in Europa Universalis and that is take out a gold loan. You have a certain time to pay it back or bad things start to happen. Thus warlike cultures can take a loan but have to be careful not to go to far and may have to pillage a lot to ensure they can pay the loan back so there is still a bit of a built in check since if they pillage too much of the lands they conquer then they aren't that much better off.

* Vassal States: I live the Civ IV model better. The Civ V makes no historical sense. Even if I take over an area and put in a puppet, the people aren't going to stand decades later if I decide I suddenly want one of their cities! I mean that would have been like if the USSR in the early 60's suddenly decided they wanted to annex Poland after all. The Poles, under the Warsaw Pact thumb or not, would have NOT gone for that! Of course the Civ IV problem of vassal states not being able to be created on the same continent needs to be fixed.

Unit Upgrades: While I like it that city-states units upgrade, I find it odd other player's units don't. I've found late in the game it is 'easier' to attack another civ who still has steel swordsmen, crossbows and muskets than attack the city-state who has infantry! There really needs to be a mechanism where the AI upgrades their units better. With the importance of unit promotions, it makes more sense to upgrade a unit than build a new one.

Last suggestion is just way out there. I really think the game would be better if cities could do two things at once. In this I mean build buildings and units at the same time. I think you could work it so that if you were either building a unit or a building it could go faster but you could do both. It is really hard to play a game with a small empire strategy, emphasizing culture when another civ is spamming cities and thus can crank out endless supplies of cheap units that overrun you. Of course this relates to my point I made above about war and economics. I really don't think you should be able to field massive armies to later in the game when you have the economic (and logistical) tech to make it work. Of course Orbis can also use magic (life, nature, water magic I'm thinking) to help out.

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