Future of Orbis - Civ5 incarnation discussion

[civ_king]

Okay, just the other day I cranked up Orbis because frankly I'm already bored with Civ V.

Things I'd like to see. I'm not sure how they all can be done, just putting ideas out.

* Religion: I agree the Civ IV system is weird. I personally think it works more for those of us who like our Civ more historical. I believe religion can give certain perks (like you get to build temples) but it can also be negative (going to war with a country of the same religion for example) and also I think it could be used as a mechanism for random or "historical" events. This brings me to my next point.

* Events: Keep up with the events. If there is one aspect I loved about Europa Universallis was events gave you a choice. Sometimes it was the choice between the lesser of two evils or a some bad you accept for the good you wanted. It would be difficult, but I think it would be nice to have a sort of 'event tree' where the choices you make in the game along with things like your civics and religions present would affect your events.

* National Guard: Now that Civ V has a way for cities to defend themselves and units are expensive, I really think it is time for a more realistic system about units. Standing armies are expensive! Throughout history kings went broke fielding armies. Mercenaries were used more often than not because once the war stopped, you stopped paying them. Some ideas:
-> Earlier system to buy mercenaries. Maybe tie this in w/City States. Different types have different mercs for sale. Thus those militaristic states are important.
-> Militia System: Have a 'inactive' mode for units. They cannot move and take a turn or two be become active and it cost money to do so. However it is cheaper to do then buy/build a unit from scratch and the maintenance cost is very minimal.

* Economics and War: I think there needs to be more of a penalty for long drawn out wars early in the game. Back in the day there wasn't the logistics or economic system that could fund long drawn out wars, especially since most of your fighters where also your farmers. One way to get around this for the war-mongers is through another thing you could do in Europa Universalis and that is take out a gold loan. You have a certain time to pay it back or bad things start to happen. Thus warlike cultures can take a loan but have to be careful not to go to far and may have to pillage a lot to ensure they can pay the loan back so there is still a bit of a built in check since if they pillage too much of the lands they conquer then they aren't that much better off.

* Vassal States: I live the Civ V model better. The Civ V makes no historical sense. Even if I take over an area and put in a puppet, the people aren't going to stand decades later if I decide I suddenly want one of their cities! I mean that would have been like if the USSR in the early 60's suddenly decided they wanted to annex Poland after all. The Poles, under the Warsaw Pact thumb or not, would have NOT gone for that!

Unit Upgrades: While I like it that city-states units upgrade, I find it odd other player's units don't. I've found late in the game it is 'easier' to attack another civ who still has steel swordsmen, crossbows and muskets than attack the city-state who has infantry! There really needs to be a mechanism where the AI upgrades their units better. With the importance of unit promotions, it makes more sense to upgrade a unit than build a new one.

Last suggestion is just way out there. I really think the game would be better if cities could do two things at once. In this I mean build buildings and units at the same time. I think you could work it so that if you were either building a unit or a building it could go faster but you could do both. It is really hard to play a game with a small empire strategy, emphasizing culture when another civ is spamming cities and thus can crank out endless supplies of cheap units that overrun you. Of course this relates to my point I made above about war and economics. I really don't think you should be able to field massive armies to later in the game when you have the economic (and logistical) tech to make it work. Of course Orbis can also use magic (life, nature, water magic I'm thinking) to help out.

End-Of-Line

I like this (As for the Poles I imagine if the Soviets started rounding up the Catholic Clergy bad stuff would have happened).

I think you left off a major place to morph, India. India has historically both been known for technological prowess and also its mysticism. I think it would be really interesting to do a civ with Indian roots!

(A Polish flavored civ might be cool too, complete with potato vodka )

 

[Kalina]

Just out of curiosity - any progress, Ahwaric ? Don't want to hurry you or anything, just wanted to ask
Civ5 is good, but it's getting bit boring - I think we need Orbis for it :>

 

[Ahwaric]

Progress? Actually, quite much.

I have added some units (like axeman & horse archer) and buildings, plus did a lot of work on tech tree. Also did some adjustments on the terrain.
New resources: copper, mithril, "secret" (strategic), tea, salt (luxury), rice, olive (bonus), cotton (now bonus only)
Removed aluminum and uranium
In general, modding resources in civ 5 is a nightmare. I have some issues left (especially with salt), but overall most work is done.
I am currently reconstructing ship line - will add some transports if possible

There are wonders left - I need to get rid of the obviously real world ones, or at least rename the ones that refer to people (like Sistine Chapel). Then, I have to redo policies (currently no effects associated). Plus I have some "blank" techs - need to add some goodies to these.
Also, civs need to be made unique. No art yet, no special units, even city lists need filling.

Then all that will be left is adjusting costs and flavours. Adding matching art...
And finally playing a bit, fixing the bugs

So, as you can see, a lot of work needs to be done. I will probably release beta at some point, but not soon

Edit: second post updated with the new tech tree
Edit2: Please let me know if you have any ideas for goodies for the "empty" techs (excluding magic ones - will be disabled till I am able to add magic system). Of course, I will add only the ideas I like, plus probably adjust it to my taste

 

[Forral]

What I've read about the mod invokes some rather interesting imagery in my imagination, making me quite excited for what the mod could become with time. Now what I see probably won't be conveyed all too well with words, but I thought I'd share it nonetheless.

I see the massive shadows of giant armour plated Zeppelins loaded with explosive satchels, looming imposingly over the land. The thick smoke of their earlier bombing run still linger over the battlefield where the bodies of the recently deceased have started twitching, standing up and marching once more despite their missing limbs and severe burns. The gates to the sanctum where the responsible mages weave their dark, necromantic magic creak and groan with each new impact with the technocrat battering ram. Their forces scatter and withdraw however to give room for a new monstrosity; a fusion of man and machine, belching black smoke from the coal burning in its core, and the metal armour on its body grinding and churning with each new move of the beast.

Reaching the gates, the saw-blade mounted on its cumbersome arm springs to action, spinning, whirring and tearing a deep gash into the splintered door. No sooner does it break through the dark oak-wood before a ball of focused fire bursts through the carcass of the gates from within the sanctum, sending the metal beast tumbling and skidding across the cobblestone road until it remains still, now a mere scrapheap, smoking with the scent of charred flesh.

With the intoxicating taste of victory lingering on their tongues, the mages, no longer cowering in the relative safety of their sanctum, march out into the looming shadows of the Zeppelins. Above them the majestic machines burst into flames, the combustible gases stored in their cells, fuelling the inferno and leaving only the metal husks as they tumble down into the picturesque settlement.

The audacity of the mages earns an immediate response from the technocrat forces however. Across the narrow cobblestone road, hidden away on the top floor of a decrepit old mansion a new weapon springs to action. The winding of a crank sets its barrels into rotation, and the creaking noise of the crank draws the attention of the surprised mages just moments before it erupts in the glorious, blaring sounds of automatic fire. Streaks of white fire burst from its spinning muzzles, and a constant hail of metal pellets shriek through the air towards their prey.

Shaking their lifeless corpses like rag-dolls or throwing their still bodies to the ground, the stream of metal bullets does not stop until the blood of mages seep through the street, trickling amid the mossy cobblestones and dripping down the drainage into the dark sewers below.

The screams, the explosions, the sound of metal on metal; the symphony of battle; stirs something there in the darkness, and the scent of fresh blood teases its flaring nostrils as it wakes from its slumber...

Sort of Warhammer meets Arcanum meets my sloppy creative writing. Anyway, I was inspired to dream a little and thought the visualization was cool enough to share with you guys. Pointless, I know.

 

[Kalina]

So, as you can see, a lot of work needs to be done. I will probably release beta at some point, but not soon

I'm sure we all would be happy to help with bug hunting

Edit2: Please let me know if you have any ideas for goodies for the "empty" techs (excluding magic ones - will be disabled till I am able to add magic system). Of course, I will add only the ideas I like, plus probably adjust it to my taste

Some ideas about techs - some of them look little empty, with just one thing enabled. But it's also case with ciV techs
I don't know what other techs give, so some might fit better in other places.

Polytheism
- good happiness wonder (like +8 or something)
- Garden

Feral Bond
- Armoured Elephant
- extra food/production from camps ?

Alchemy
- better wealth process (50% instead of 25%)
- alchemist lab (+xx% science or +x research for every 'secret' worked ? plus specialist slot)

Printing Press
- Great Press, wonder giving free SP or two
- Press, +x culture building

Physics
- better research process
- national wonder with +100% research and specialists slots, requiring buildings from Scientific Method

Machine Tools
- extra food from farms ?
- better workrate for workers ?

Telegraph
- cheap "airport" like building (allowing access to trade network without roads like harbour, but without coast either)
- +x research in capital for every city connected (with done with happiness with SP, maybe possible with tech also ?)

Mechanical Armor
- Mechs (with Robotics)
- Steam-armor Infantry

Robotics
- Automatons, low str non-combat units. For example, Healing Automaton (Medic III promotion, with Medicine), Recon Automaton (steath and can enter enemy borders), Worker Automaton (worker with double or triple workrate)

 

[arkham4269]

Personally I just think you need to make a balance of tech and magic. Orbis to me has always seemed to be a magic/steampunk mix.

The "problem" I see with that is the game sometimes doesn't do well with this. While play the Mechanos, for example, you couldn't use your Great Scientists effectively because the only techs you could get for free were magical ones you didn't need.

I think the tech tree should have enough techs where you can't research everything. However, if you follow certain paths, you unlock neat stuff. Sort of how like in the Rise of Mankind Mod, you could really go nuts on cavalry tech and get some pretty neat units...or not. Obviously for civs like the Hippus, they'd want to do this. However there would be a trade off of not having time to do other techs.

I think it could be done with certain "key benchmark" techs which are very expensive in time but open up a lot of techs. Research this tech isn't to be done lightly. Plus even as the game progresses I think they should remain relatively expensive. So if you want your steam tanks and dreadnaughts, you have to initiate the tech that opens up technology better ("scientific method?")

It is also a way to limit magic; make some of the higher magic a lot harder to get so races like the Clan might decide it isn't worth it because there are other more 'important' combat related techs they would rather spend their time on.

I'm a BIG fan of having many roads to victory. If it can be made to work, it would make each Civ a bit more unique. Plus it allows for another avenue of experimentation. Of course the big problem is getting the AI to play ball.

Oh, if you are thinking of 'fixing' the one unit per hex, I still think the Army leader concept of the Three Kingdom mods is the way to go!

 

[sputnik323]

Glad Orbis 2 is underway!

Civ 5 needs modded multiplayer and Orbis 2

Some ideas...

1) Specialty techs: I know you have already done a lot of work on the tech tree (which looks awesome)... adding techs which end for high end units or extra bonuses but do not lead to other techs adds in choice and complexity to the tree. The best way to explain this is an example. -If England was researching steel to get swordsman there is a tech that branches off to allow them to get samurai. That tech is a dead end, but allows England to get a tech that is normally only Japanese.
Steel -> Gunpowder -> Chemistry
Steel --> Bushido -x
This could be done for special units or just bonuses to certain civs. Maybe one civ would have more defensive abilities automatically, and another civ could become defensive but must make extra efforts to tech on ending trees.

2) World Wonder Units: This was done in FFH as heroes but the implementation of a wonder unit is just a bit different. I think heroes would be a great addition to Orbis 2. World wonder units are an extra investment in the creation of armies or units above and beyond normal soldiers/units. These units cost more to create like a wonder, but also have extra strength for their time period. Example: Spartan army, Yamato battleship, Teutonic Knights, etc.

3) Bring back Orbis forts! Would be so awesome in 1upt! -with additions of city and fort improvements. Eg. Moats, Drawbridges, Gatehouse, Curtain walls, Bailey and enceinte, hoardings, ect.

4) Strategic Improvements: Instead of having huge defensive bonuses to defenders, actually build defensive positions or tactical structures. eg. Ditches, field walls, towers, buried pikes, canals, cloches, ect.

5) Replacement for Espionage- Clandestine Activities: Instead of a system of espionage have it worked through units. Ships/units can get letters of marque promotion and raid other countries. Units can be bought as mercenaries and viewed as barbarians with that promotion. Change scouts to explorers and make scouts invisible and upgradeable to spies. They have a chance to lose invisibility every turn and attacked when not invisible. Vision is critical in battle for 1upt, dont know why a form of espionage was not in the vanilla game.

 

[magzhi]

I am big fan of your mod and FFH so if you need any help in creating xmls(I still can't get how lua works ) you can send PM to me

 

[Tiera]

First of all I´m really pleased to hear that you have spare time and motivation to continue modding in Civ 5. Our LAN group still plays Orbis on a regular basis, and we´re all looking forward to your new mod.

Some comments and suggestions for new civilizations.

[*]Sailors – Lanun/Pirates (English/Dutch or Polynesian) – neutral, live at sea; navy bonuses

There´s a treasure drove of rich mythology and stunning visual styles in Polynesian cultures...and the idea of maori-tattooed pirates workshipping strange alien gods of the depths and cruising around in their catamarans is just cool enough in itself. If such things could be combined to visions of China Miéville´s The Scar, the mixture would be rather nice indeed.

[*]asian shamanistics civ (tibatan/syberian/japanise?)

Native Siberian cultures are another group that hasn´t so far seen too much attention in fantasy world settings. And creating a group of shaman-led reclusive spirit workshippers gives a ton of possibilities for dark fantasy settings.

I really liked the latest version of Octopus Overlords, and for this group I´ve had a similar "Lovecraftian" idea of powerful elder gods slowly warping the dreams of the leading shamans during their attempts to contact them in order to gain new followers. The unintented byproduct of the new odd visions they whisper through the spirit realms is the fact that these contacts are driving the shamans utterly mad. And since they lead the whole culture, this is pushing the static life of the tribes into new, unforeseen directions...

This would give the player a choise to research certain techs or enact key social policies that would either seek to contain the effects of these rising cults or embrace few of them more fully than others. Definitively not pure choises between good and evil, but more like decisions of which new minor elder god to focus on, with each providing their own "gifts" and effects on the civilization in the form of units, tech that can be researched, bonuses and maluses and so forth.

 

[civ_king]

South Asia is also neglected

 

[Ahwaric]

Hello again guys. I had some break from Civ V modding (quite frustrating as it is, I needed a break). But I am taking another try - first updating my files to the new patch.The bad nerws is, the mod will not be released before christmas. But I am going to work on it using the spare time I get.

I'm sure we all would be happy to help with bug hunting

Ok, but first I need to remove all the bugs I know about, some of them quite serious (adding a luxury resource, or changing distribution of one, is a hard thing...)
Also, I lack even the simplest art for some units (i.e. axemen)

Some ideas about techs - some of them look little empty, with just one thing enabled.

More will come as the mod expands - i.e. while I can finally access dll. But if I can add something now, I will, soe thanks for the ideas

Personally I just think you need to make a balance of tech and magic. Orbis to me has always seemed to be a magic/steampunk mix.

Yes, I want both paths balanced, though different. Technology will be more about quantity and new items, magic will mean quality and improving already existing things (i.e. units). But first, I need the magic system.
And balancing is work never to be finished

By the way, a disclosure of the design rule for Orbis 2. It will start as a standard accurate history mod, but will diverge ad become more magical the further you go. Both in the tech tree researching sense and mod expanding as the patches and new versions come

Civ 5 needs modded multiplayer and Orbis 2

Some ideas...

I like the idea of spceialization, and indeed, I will probably remodel the tech tree to include some techs or even patchs that while expensive, allow improwing one aspect of the empire. It might be part of economy or unit combat type.
Regarding world units, heroes will be in, though not in the initial version. Also, world units are somewhat planned. In each era I want a basic type of unit and some special ones. There is even something in - in bronze/classical era, you will get axemen and spearmen, but provided you have copper and are willing to invest a lot of production, you will be able to field phalanx, which will be stronger even that basic swordsman (though not imperium legionnary ).
I need to expand this theme, but it will be in - and will contribute to the diversity I hope.

3) Bring back Orbis forts!

Confirmed, will be in. Upgrading forst already coded, but I want to use dll to make them control tiles, and that will have to wait.
Also, there will be more types of city defenses. Walls, citadel, barbican and star fort are already in (one per era in bronze-renaissance period). When I can add other effects, there might be even more. Castle is now a fort upgrade (citadel is by definition a castle/fortress built in city, I hope firaxis one day learns it )

5) Replacement for Espionage- Clandestine Activities

Sheduled for later - some kind of espionage will probably be included in one of the expansions, so I want to focus on other things for now. Plus, magic system would help here...

First of all I´m really pleased to hear that you have spare time and motivation to continue modding in Civ 5. Our LAN group still plays Orbis on a regular basis, and we´re all looking forward to your new mod.

I have not as much time as I would like to, but I really want to create Orbis 2.

I wanted at first to have standard pirates, but I like the idea of Polynesians worshipping strange alien gods developed on its own ghere (I mean, you guys did it ), and I really like it.

South Asia is also neglected

As are many parts of the world... In fact I have even one more european civ in mind - inspired by slavic mythology, a rural one (so the Palatinate would split into 2 civs in Orbis2). But eventually, I want to move outside european/middle east area and include other civs. I started mostly with europe for several reasons:

• that is what I know best - every time I go to work I pass by a castle, plus I quite often see other medieval buildings here
• most fantasy systems are based on medieval europe
• it is easier to focus on one area first

When I am ready to expand, you can bet on me asking for ideas

 

[civ_king]

Ahwaric, what kind of flavor things do you want for a Civ, it'll take a while to gather all the information


PS Wesolych Swiat Bozego Narodzenia! (did I say it right?)

 

[Jarrema]

PS Wesolych Swiat Bozego Narodzenia! (did I say it right?)

Yes, only without Polish letters

I want to second with the same wishes

Wesołych Świąt Bożego Narodzenia!

​

 

[sputnik323]

I like the idea of spceialization, and indeed, I will probably remodel the tech tree to include some techs or even patchs that while expensive, allow improwing one aspect of the empire. It might be part of economy or unit combat type.
Regarding world units, heroes will be in, though not in the initial version. Also, world units are somewhat planned. In each era I want a basic type of unit and some special ones. There is even something in - in bronze/classical era, you will get axemen and spearmen, but provided you have copper and are willing to invest a lot of production, you will be able to field phalanx, which will be stronger even that basic swordsman (though not imperium legionnary ).
I need to expand this theme, but it will be in - and will contribute to the diversity I hope.

Confirmed, will be in. Upgrading forst already coded, but I want to use dll to make them control tiles, and that will have to wait.
Also, there will be more types of city defenses. Walls, citadel, barbican and star fort are already in (one per era in bronze-renaissance period). When I can add other effects, there might be even more. Castle is now a fort upgrade (citadel is by definition a castle/fortress built in city, I hope firaxis one day learns it

I have a feeling civ V will live a long time due to Orbis 2. can't wait until an alpha version is released

 

[civ_king]

I have a feeling civ V will live a long time due to Orbis 2. can't wait until an alpha version is released

Which is why you'll help right

 

[Zdarg]

Ahwaric, may I ask a question? Civ4 mods I played (Rhye's and Fall, FfHII, Orbis) were all more playable and enjoyable than Civ itself, but they all did lack one thing: AI never tried to achieve any victory condition, so there was much less of competition.
Will you agree it's a problem and will you try to solve it this time?

 

[Valkrionn]

Ahwaric, may I ask a question? Civ4 mods I played (Rhye's and Fall, FfHII, Orbis) were all more playable and enjoyable than Civ itself, but they all did lack one thing: AI never tried to achieve any victory condition, so there was much less of competition.
Will you agree it's a problem and will you try to solve it this time?

The AI in Civ5 already not just attempts victories, but plans for them.

 

[Zdarg]

The AI in Civ5 already not just attempts victories, but plans for them.

Well, AI in Civ 4 probably didn't plan, but it actually built spaceships in every game I've played up to modern/future era. Meanwhile, in FfH/Orbis I never saw an AI civ even trying to build Tower of Mastery or Altar of Lluonatar.

 

[Valkrionn]

Try Wildmana or RifE; AI goes for both victories in those mods. Just a matter of getting the AI to do it, which was never done for FfH.

 

[Zdarg]

Try Wildmana or RifE; AI goes for both victories in those mods.

A bit too late. I don't think I'll play any new (for me) mods for Civ 4.

Just a matter of getting the AI to do it, which was never done for FfH.

That's why I ask the author if he would do it for Orbis II.
I'll play the mod anyway (vanilla CiV is somewhat boring), but I'll be more happier if this concrete part will be implemented.
I don't ask for anything, I am just interested.