[GS] Future Update?

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The Plague Problem is that they are the Map-Wide Hurricanes of History. Before Sanitation and Germ Theory you have no real recourse except to Survive, and the effects can be absolutely devastating and seemingly random: the Antonine Plague wiped out up to 1/3 of the population in parts of the Roman Empire, the Plague of Justinian up to 40% of Europe and western Asia - between them, they reduced the manpower available to the Roman and Byzantine Empires by up to 30%. Try playing that:

"Next turn 1/3 of your Units will disband and you can only recruit a new unit when you get a population increase for the next X turns."

"But I'm at war with the Zulus and Aztec! %$#@&% This Game!"

Not helpful.

In addition, cities were notorious Disease Pits because of the combination of crowded human and animal populations and new populations being introduced by traders and migrants all the time. Rome, one of the best recorded Classical cities, during the early-middle Empire had a major epidemic on average every 30 - 40 years (major being 50,000 or more deaths). In other words, every 2 - 3 turns you lose a population point at random and there is nothing you can do about it except shut down all trade routes and cap all cities at size 3 or 4.

Again, who wants to play that?

I agree that Plague needs to be modeled in the game somehow, but it will have to be very carefully done to avoid just being a Negative Random Event that adds nothing positive to the play of the game.

Roger that. I never understood how games of strategic planning are enhanced by a stochastic effect that amounts to a bully coming over and kicking over your sandcastle. Yet that's exactly how some games work. In Tropico or Skylines, there are no challenges once a player has revenue streams up and running, so the only idea anyone seems to have to address the issue is to occasionally have a tornado stroll through town.

So the question I'd have for anyone proposing a disease mechanism is how does it enhance gameplay? Is it addressing a current need? If it's just something to include for purely simulationist purposes, then that's a pass.

I like some of Civ VI's disasters because they generally represent a push-your-luck mechanism. You know going in that settling on a flood plain or next to a volcano is a risk. And the dev's wisely realized that there should actually be some positive gains from disasters, knowing that if they were purely negative they'd just be turned off.

Maybe disease could be a check on settler-spam--a risk that is incurred once a player's number of cities at a given era passes a threshold.
 
Having 6 or 7 options might be a little much, but IMO, neighbourhoods are a great late-game opportunity to shake things up. I think I'd rather see them maybe give a flat +4 housing, but maybe convert the appeal to be an amenity bonus instead (so +1 amenities on charming and +2 on breathtaking), and then yeah, give them the ability to generate per-pop bonuses. Maybe you don't need like 6 or 7 building choices, but you could have maybe 4, whether they be in a T1/T2 shape or just 4 distinct buildings. I've always thought neighbourhoods should also have a larger bonus for being next to the city centre or other districts, so like a university gets 6 science instead of 4 if it has a neighbourhood next to it.

I like the idea of housing based on appeal. There is already very little use for appeal IMO.

I also really like this idea y'all are discussing of expanding neighborhoods. Could make for a fun mod!
 
So the question I'd have for anyone proposing a disease mechanism is how does it enhance gameplay? Is it addressing a current need? If it's just something to include for purely simulationist purposes, then that's a pass.

Simulation is the point, though. Civilization is, at its heart, a 4x strategy game with a host of additional and unnecessary features baked in for added flavor.

I'll answer your question, though. Plague (or health, more broadly speaking) could serve as a check on endless expansion. If the optimal play is to spam as many cities and trade routes as you possibly can, the risk of spreading plague along those trade routes means you have to be careful about where you settle a city and how much infrastructure you dedicate to keeping it healthy. It also gives us another opportunity for emergencies, which has ramifications on Diplomatic Victories. I'll leave it to you to decide whether or not that's necessary (or even worthwhile), but personally speaking, I'd welcome more opportunities to score Diplomatic Victory points in the medieval and renaissance eras.
 
...maybe they delayed and are holding back the update/announcement because it did include diseases, viruses and/or plague in the main game but they might of thought it would be inappropriate or in bad taste right now concidering real world events. (Refering to the new strain of coronavirus that cultivated in Wuhun, China, if you've been sleeping under a rock.)
 
I'm all for making Neighbourhoods interesting
 
Building an Apothecary and bringing Plague Doctors into the base game can help before you reach the Industrial Era at least.
Maybe Aqueducts could help as well as it could be an early form of bringing sanitation (fresh water) to your cities.

Unless, of course, you've lined your aqueduct troughs with lead or gotten you water from a Cholera - carrying source. The Romans actually 'graded' the aqueducts - some carried better water than others, and so were preferred for important things like providing water to the Emperor's palace complex . . .

Several things could be used to lessen the impact of Plague/Disease/Negative Health in teh 'first half' of the game:
Technology:
Soap from fats and ash was invented in Mesopotamia in the Ancient Era (2800 BCE)
The earliest (herbal) medical book was written in China at about the same time (2600 BCE)
The Olive Tree was domesticated (2500 BCE) giving access to Olive Oil for cleansing.

These could be combined into a Tech for Health available quite early.

Great Doctors:
These start showing up historically in the Classical Era (If you want to stretch, even the Ancient Era - Imhotep, the Egyptian chancellor and pyramid-builder, was also later worshipped as a God of Healing and Medicine!):
Galen, Hippocrates, Dioscorides, Al-Zahrawi (Albucasis), Maimonides, Ambroise Pare - there are enough to give a chance for getting a "Medical Great Scientist" in the early game to help recover from or avoid the worst effects of a Plague.

Social/Civics:
In 1403 CE (very early Renaissance or very late Medieval Era) Venice imposed the first official Quarantine to stop disease from spreading into the city. This was a Political Act, not related to Technology. From my reading, this was the first definite action by any government that actually stopped an epidemic from spreading.
Other "social" possibilities, though, might be use of Mineral Baths for healing/personal sanitation (first recorded in Sumer, Ancient Era) or saunas or sweat baths (Finns, Central Asiuans and Native North Americans, among others) which would generally improve the hygine of the population.
Roman Public Baths, unfortunately, would not help: because the waters were re-used by hundreds or thousands of people, they might actually spread water-borne disease faster than being dirty.

The problem is, all of these, even used together, did very little to stop plagues from breaking out or spreading (except Quarantine) and once the disease was rampant, without an understanding of Germ Theory and viral/bacterial cause and effect, the best you could hope for was to keep the death rate down to Merely Disastrous.

The biggest single factor in the introduction and spread of disease appears to have been Long Range Contact: Every time Trade became lucrative and important over distances, diseases that a population had not developed antibodies against would spread with the Trade. Every single city of the Classical Era that was a nexus of trade routes also had recurring plagues: Athens, Rome, Alexandria, Byzantium, Antioch. Later, London got so dangerous in the Renaissance - early Industrial Era that everybody who could afford to simply left the city in the hot ("Plague Season") months of the summer - the origin of the 'summer house' in the country for the upper and middle classes.

So, Plague could be the Flood Plain/Volcano of Trade: You get bundles of Gold and Resources from Trade, you takes your chance on losing a Population Point or several every once in a while until you can impose Quarantine, which stops or reduces (goods kept locked up and unsold for X months) Trade Income for X Turns but reduces the effects of Plague/Negative Health during the same period.
Once you research Germ Theory/Sanitation in the Industrial Era, historically that was followed by major sewage handling and water-providing projects in all the major cities, along with Health Clinics, Hospitals, Health Plans, and a vast improvement in Military Medicine, including Preventive medical techniques (it's no accident that the earliest vaccinations were discovered or spread by military-related medical people: preventing mass disease outbreaks was critical to keeping an army in the field).

BUT it was the Modern Era (The Boer War and Russo-Japanese Wars, in fact: 1900 - 1905 CE) before a soldier had a higher chance of being shot by the enemy than being killed by disease, and really the invention of antibiotics (1930s CE) before 'medical losses' became a small percentage of total military casualties.
 
inappropriate or in bad taste right now concidering real world events.

I would hope not! As news in the U.S. has pointed out, the flu is still killing more people. This is a flashy news story, and could potentially be a serious problem, but right now it's not out of control.
 
I would hope not! As news in the U.S. has pointed out, the flu is still killing more people. This is a flashy news story, and could potentially be a serious problem, but right now it's not out of control.
I'm not worried either about the virus IRL; but because of all of the news attention it's getting, people being worried or scared about it, and the daily reports of "X many people have now died the Coronavirus in Wuhan and thousands more more have been infected" constantly reminding you of the death toll might still make Firaxis/2K think of holding back a bit until it's blown over a bit.
 
I'm not worried either about the virus IRL; but because of all of the news attention it's getting, people being worried or scared about it, and the daily reports of "X many people have now died the Coronavirus in Wuhan and thousands more more have been infected"

Few days ago it was reported here that the Coronavirus has gotten its influence in Finland.

Speaking of, it may still be young as a nation, but Finland would a neat civ to have.
 
Few days ago it was reported here that the Coronavirus has gotten its influence in Finland.

Speaking of, it may still be young as a nation, but Finland would a neat civ to have.

i think you could create a fun Infantry ww2 unit out of Finland. + perhaps a diplomatic or terrain bonus.
 
"Molotov Cocktail - Melee, Anti-Cavalry and Ranged units get +4 comabt strength against all cavalry units. Units get an additional +4 combat strenght when fortified and Finnish units killed within friendly terratory do not create war weariness. Enemy Civilizations do not excert loyalty pressure on Finnish cities."
 
"Molotov Cocktail - Melee, Anti-Cavalry and Ranged units get +4 comabt strength against all cavalry units. Units get an additional +4 combat strenght when fortified and Finnish units killed within friendly terratory do not create war weariness. Enemy Civilizations do not excert loyalty pressure on Finnish cities."
The return of civ5 Ethiopia? :)
The no loyalty is too absolute, totally eliminates Elie's ability.
 
The return of civ5 Ethiopia? :)
The no loyalty is too absolute, totally eliminates Elie's ability.
You mis-read; I specified "Enemy Civilizations" which means they don't get loyalty pressure from civs they are currently at war with.

This was in reference to the Soviets bombing the Fins and the fins basically saying "Oh! Thanks for the food packages for our neigbours!"

EDIT: And besides; it's not like we've already had a leader that ignores another leader's ability (see Alexander and Ghandi's War Weariness)
 
Unless, of course, you've lined your aqueduct troughs with lead or gotten you water from a Cholera - carrying source. The Romans actually 'graded' the aqueducts - some carried better water than others, and so were preferred for important things like providing water to the Emperor's palace complex . . .

Several things could be used to lessen the impact of Plague/Disease/Negative Health in teh 'first half' of the game:
Technology:
Soap from fats and ash was invented in Mesopotamia in the Ancient Era (2800 BCE)
The earliest (herbal) medical book was written in China at about the same time (2600 BCE)
The Olive Tree was domesticated (2500 BCE) giving access to Olive Oil for cleansing.

These could be combined into a Tech for Health available quite early.

Great Doctors:
These start showing up historically in the Classical Era (If you want to stretch, even the Ancient Era - Imhotep, the Egyptian chancellor and pyramid-builder, was also later worshipped as a God of Healing and Medicine!):
Galen, Hippocrates, Dioscorides, Al-Zahrawi (Albucasis), Maimonides, Ambroise Pare - there are enough to give a chance for getting a "Medical Great Scientist" in the early game to help recover from or avoid the worst effects of a Plague.

Social/Civics:
In 1403 CE (very early Renaissance or very late Medieval Era) Venice imposed the first official Quarantine to stop disease from spreading into the city. This was a Political Act, not related to Technology. From my reading, this was the first definite action by any government that actually stopped an epidemic from spreading.
Other "social" possibilities, though, might be use of Mineral Baths for healing/personal sanitation (first recorded in Sumer, Ancient Era) or saunas or sweat baths (Finns, Central Asiuans and Native North Americans, among others) which would generally improve the hygine of the population.
Roman Public Baths, unfortunately, would not help: because the waters were re-used by hundreds or thousands of people, they might actually spread water-borne disease faster than being dirty.

The problem is, all of these, even used together, did very little to stop plagues from breaking out or spreading (except Quarantine) and once the disease was rampant, without an understanding of Germ Theory and viral/bacterial cause and effect, the best you could hope for was to keep the death rate down to Merely Disastrous.

The biggest single factor in the introduction and spread of disease appears to have been Long Range Contact: Every time Trade became lucrative and important over distances, diseases that a population had not developed antibodies against would spread with the Trade. Every single city of the Classical Era that was a nexus of trade routes also had recurring plagues: Athens, Rome, Alexandria, Byzantium, Antioch. Later, London got so dangerous in the Renaissance - early Industrial Era that everybody who could afford to simply left the city in the hot ("Plague Season") months of the summer - the origin of the 'summer house' in the country for the upper and middle classes.

So, Plague could be the Flood Plain/Volcano of Trade: You get bundles of Gold and Resources from Trade, you takes your chance on losing a Population Point or several every once in a while until you can impose Quarantine, which stops or reduces (goods kept locked up and unsold for X months) Trade Income for X Turns but reduces the effects of Plague/Negative Health during the same period.
Once you research Germ Theory/Sanitation in the Industrial Era, historically that was followed by major sewage handling and water-providing projects in all the major cities, along with Health Clinics, Hospitals, Health Plans, and a vast improvement in Military Medicine, including Preventive medical techniques (it's no accident that the earliest vaccinations were discovered or spread by military-related medical people: preventing mass disease outbreaks was critical to keeping an army in the field).

BUT it was the Modern Era (The Boer War and Russo-Japanese Wars, in fact: 1900 - 1905 CE) before a soldier had a higher chance of being shot by the enemy than being killed by disease, and really the invention of antibiotics (1930s CE) before 'medical losses' became a small percentage of total military casualties.

Note: The post below is a bit all over the place and not properly structured.

I think Great Doctors are unnecessary. What I would like is an extended pool of Great People, and each game would draw a limited number of Great People from the same pool, so that every game is different.

I think the early part of the game regarding disease/plague should be fairly ahistorical and pseudo-scientific. I think the Black Death scenario did it really well with the miasma, though I find it unnecessary to have purple clouds over every tile. It should expand over Cities/Roads/Harbors/Airports only. I see no issue with using Plague Doctors. It is a really cool unit.

We could also have Great Scientists with powerful abilities to clear plagues/pandemics, for instance. Some pantheons and religious beliefs could also have bonuses to deal with it.

The plagues/pandemics should have different colours representing different kinds of viruses with different characteristics.
---

Consider climate change atm. Someone mentioned earlier that the devs did well to add bonuses to climate change events. I only somewhat agree. Volcanic soil doesn't need ever increasing yields. It required only a static bonus to food, production and science. People would want to settle close to volcanic soil for the extra science. That's motivation enough.

Same with floodplains. The advantage of settling in floodplains should be a temporary boost to yields in flooded tiles. The bonus would remain at 100% even after building a dam. Given rivers also provide +3 housing, this is enough balancing.

I'm mentioning this because I disagree that all mechanics require a "hard positive" to balance it. Most of us want the AI to be stronger and to be more of a challenge in times of war. What's the "positive" in that, other than immersion and for the sake of challenge?

Avoiding negative effects can often be their own positive. What I don't like are random events coming out of the blue. So with that in mind, here are some ideas regarding plagues:

- Just like with climate change, you would know what is more likely to trigger a plague to appear. Examples would include war, devastation, sieges, overpopulation (you should be able to more easily go over the pop limit in a city), being in a dark age, etc. Then, once a plague is triggered, you would be able to visually identify it on the map, even if the plague was triggered in a foreign civ. So you would know if it's coming for you and from where. You would then be allowed to quarantine your own cities via city projects, cancel trade agreements allowing traders to move to and from your cities (would require a new trade agreement option in diplomacy permitting trade between Civs), early game emergencies allowing you to contribute gold to the affected Civ, etc.

- In the late game pandemics would activate emergencies which would require all world Civs to contribute SCIENCE points to it. This creates a Free-Rider Problem / Prisoner's Dilemma er... dilemma, in the game. Each individual Civ wants to invest as little as possible, since successful completion would benefit every Civ equally, yet failing to succeed in the project to find a cure can be devastating to everybody. The Civ which contributes the most Science to a successful emergency gains 3 Diplo Points. But if all other Civs are free-riding, this can be costly even for someone seeking a Diplo victory.

On the other hand, Civs may choose to individually invest in Research Cure City Projects - This consumes both production and science, and you'll likely end up spending more than if you had contributed to the pandemic emergency, but successfully finding a cure gives you Science Victory points (see below), and the cure emanates from your own City where the cure was found, clearing the miasma along the way. You can also sell or gift the cure to others. Refusing to do either of these may be to your advantage as well, but it opens the possibility of other Civs to declare military emergencies on you.

After every 30 turn cycle (for instance), if a cure is not found, the virus gains a promotion with specific characteristics, depending on its type, making it increasingly dangerous.

Other Random Thoughts:

- Nuclear fallout should create moving clouds which could affect neighbours, including the attacking Civ, and also poison all tiles along a river and ocean tiles. It could also create its own kind of pandemic, a bit sci-fi but not too out there.

- Plague mechanics would fit nicely with migration mechanics. Carts, similar to trade routes on the map, would represent citizens moving from one city to another. Normal migration could occur due to better living conditions elsewhere (more amenities) and also lack of housing in the present city. Crisis like war and plagues would trigger crisis migrations.

- Due to migration mechanics, you would also be able to choose to abandon your own cities. You don't really get to choose where the citizens go if you're a Democracy, so you might lose some of those pops permanently if they move to neighbouring Civs, with greater likelihood if they follow same religion/ are democratic/ are at peace. Democracies might not be able to resettle their own citizens, but they have stronger migratory pull over neighbours, including fascist and communist Civs.


More Thoughts on Pandemics:
- Take advantage of misery to push your own domination / science / diplomatic victory onward:

a) Domination: late pandemics which fail to be eradicated would create a game where coming out on top would be a matter of managing the pandemic in such a way as to be the one to suffer the least from it. Take advantage of the situation to conquer the world from your isolated island, even if it's a world of dust.

b) Science: science victory rework, where to win you don't have to follow a linear pathway, but instead reaching a certain amount of points/projects from a given pool, like in Diplo Victory. Projects include some of the existing ones, but also other stuff, such as:
- First to circumnavigate the globe;
- First to discover all Civs;
- Reaching Level 3 Research Alliance;
- Acquiring Specific Great Scientists, such as Newton;
- Sending an expedition and establishing a research station on an ice shelf;
- Settling a city on an Ocean tile and reaching a certain amount of pops in it. Requires a platform to be built upon the tile first, build-able by engineers only, at 20% each;
- First to discover Scientific Theory;
- Building your first nuclear weapon;
- Completing a Moon Mission project;
- A specific Wonder;
- Reaching a certain amount of Power Output while being Carbon Neutral;
- Reaching Future Tech (repeatable).
-etc
Regarding Pandemics:
- Pandemic emergencies provide Diplo Points to the winner if successful. But you may also seek to complete special city projects instead:
1. Research Cure - Already explained above.

c) Diplomacy:
- Contributing the most Science to a pandemic emergency provides you 3 Victory Points if successful, 1 if failed;
- Sending your own doctors to clear disease from foreign cities provides you diplo points at certain thresholds (1 Diplo after three doctor charges are spent in foreign cities. 1 after 10. 1 after 20.);
- Accepting crisis immigrants provides you diplo ploints at certain thresholds;
etc

I'm tired of typing...
 
Last edited:
Note: The post below is a bit all over the place and not properly structured.

I think Great Doctors are unnecessary. What I would like is an extended pool of Great People, and each game would draw a limited number of Great People from the same pool, so that every game is different.

I think the early part of the game regarding disease/plague should be fairly ahistorical and pseudo-scientific. I think the Black Death scenario did it really well with the miasma, though I find it unnecessary to have purple clouds over every tile. It should expand over Cities/Roads/Harbors/Airports only. I see no issue with using Plague Doctors. It is a really cool unit.

We could also have Great Scientists with powerful abilities to clear plagues/pandemics, for instance. Some pantheons and religious beliefs could also have bonuses to deal with it.

The plagues/pandemics should have different colours representing different kinds of viruses with different characteristics.
---

Consider climate change atm. Someone mentioned earlier that the devs did well to add bonuses to climate change events. I only somewhat agree. Volcanic soil doesn't need ever increasing yields. It required only a static bonus to food, production and science. People would want to settle close to volcanic soil for the extra science. That's motivation enough.

Same with floodplains. The advantage of settling in floodplains should be a temporary boost to yields in flooded tiles. The bonus would remain at 100% even after building a dam. Given rivers also provide +3 housing, this is enough balancing.

I'm mentioning this because I disagree that all mechanics require a "hard positive" to balance it. Most of us want the AI to be stronger and to be more of a challenge in times of war. What's the "positive" in that, other than immersion and for the sake of challenge?

Avoiding negative effects can often be their own positive. What I don't like are random events coming out of the blue. So with that in mind, here are some ideas regarding plagues:

- Just like with climate change, you would know what is more likely to trigger a plague to appear. Examples would include war, devastation, sieges, overpopulation (you should be able to more easily go over the pop limit in a city), being in a dark age, etc. Then, once a plague is triggered, you would be able to visually identify it on the map, even if the plague was triggered in a foreign civ. So you would know if it's coming for you and from where. You would then be allowed to quarantine your own cities via city projects, cancel trade agreements allowing traders to move to and from your cities (would require a new trade agreement option in diplomacy permitting trade between Civs), early game emergencies allowing you to contribute gold to the affected Civ, etc.

- In the late game pandemics would activate emergencies which would require all world Civs to contribute SCIENCE points to it. This creates a Free-Rider Problem / Prisoner's Dilemma er... dilemma, in the game. Each individual Civ wants to invest as little as possible, since successful completion would benefit every Civ equally, yet failing to succeed in the project to find a cure can be devastating to everybody. The Civ which contributes the most Science to a successful emergency gains 3 Diplo Points. But if all other Civs are free-riding, this can be costly even for someone seeking a Diplo victory.

On the other hand, Civs may choose to individually invest in Research Cure City Projects - This consumes both production and science, and you'll likely end up spending more than if you had contributed to the pandemic emergency, but successfully finding a cure gives you Science Victory points (see below), and the cure emanates from your own City where the cure was found, clearing the miasma along the way. You can also sell or gift the cure to others. Refusing to do either of these may be to your advantage as well, but it opens the possibility of other Civs to declare military emergencies on you.

After every 30 turn cycle (for instance), if a cure is not found, the virus gains a promotion with specific characteristics, depending on its type, making it increasingly dangerous.

Other Random Thoughts:

- Nuclear fallout should create moving clouds which could affect neighbours, including the attacking Civ, and also poison all tiles along a river and ocean tiles. It could also create its own kind of pandemic, a bit sci-fi but not too out there.

- Plague mechanics would fit nicely with migration mechanics. Carts, similar to trade routes on the map, would represent citizens moving from one city to another. Normal migration could occur due to better living conditions elsewhere (more amenities) and also lack of housing in the present city. Crisis like war and plagues would trigger crisis migrations.

- Due to migration mechanics, you would also be able to choose to abandon your own cities. You don't really get to choose where the citizens go if you're a Democracy, so you might lose some of those pops permanently if they move to neighbouring Civs, with greater likelihood if they follow same religion/ are democratic/ are at peace. Democracies might not be able to resettle their own citizens, but they have stronger migratory pull over neighbours, including fascist and communist Civs.


More Thoughts on Pandemics:
- Take advantage of misery to push your own domination / science / diplomatic victory onward:

a) Domination: late pandemics which fail to be eradicated would create a game where coming out on top would be a matter of managing the pandemic in such a way as to be the one to suffer the least from it. Take advantage of the situation to conquer the world from your isolated island, even if it's a world of dust.

b) Science: science victory rework, where to win you don't have to follow a linear pathway, but instead reaching a certain amount of points/projects from a given pool, like in Diplo Victory. Projects include some of the existing ones, but also other stuff, such as:
- First to circumnavigate the globe;
- First to discover all Civs;
- Reaching Level 3 Research Alliance;
- Acquiring Specific Great Scientists, such as Newton;
- Sending an expedition and establishing a research station on an ice shelf;
- Settling a city on an Ocean tile and reaching a certain amount of pops in it. Requires a platform to be built upon the tile first, build-able by engineers only, at 20% each;
- First to discover Scientific Theory;
- Building your first nuclear weapon;
- Completing a Moon Mission project;
- A specific Wonder;
- Reaching a certain amount of Power Output while being Carbon Neutral;
- Reaching Future Tech (repeatable).
-etc
Regarding Pandemics:
- Pandemic emergencies provide Diplo Points to the winner if successful. But you may also seek to complete special city projects instead:
1. Research Cure - Already explained above.

c) Diplomacy:
- Contributing the most Science to a pandemic emergency provides you 3 Victory Points if successful, 1 if failed;
- Sending your own doctors to clear disease from foreign cities provides you diplo points at certain thresholds (1 Diplo after three doctor charges are spent in foreign cities. 1 after 10. 1 after 20.);
- Accepting crisis immigrants provides you diplo ploints at certain thresholds;
etc

I'm tired of typing...

You've got some very good ideas here, but since there isn't a prayer o them being part of a Winter Update, I think we're straying from the original point of the Thread. We may have to start a Suggested Major Revision Thread - as if we don't already have enough of those!

But a couple of specific comments.

1. Plague Doctors are an artificial game mechanic: there was no such thing unless you count the people going around with carts every morning collecting the dead from the night before. On the other hand, the Great Doctors were real, and had real effects on the practice and effectiveness of medicine, including sanitation, surgery, and battlefield/military medicine. That's why I suggested them rather than another artificial 'game mechanic', which I regard as a failure of research or imagination in game design.

2. I thoroughly agree with the idea of a Pool of Great People and a random selection from them for each game. For over a year now I've been working on a 'data base', a Timeline of technical, social, military developments in history (from 60,000 BCE to 2020 CE) that now includes Great People, including some, like Great Felons, Great Ministers (Administrators), and Great Theologians that Civ VI does not include. The list now includes over 600 names, not including any living people or Artists, Musicians, or Writers so recent that their work might still be copyrighted, and it's by no means finished. It would not be hard to have almost completely different lists of Great People for each game with no repeats for several games in a row. Especially since some names can be included in several categories: Leonardo da Vince, for instance, I list as Either a Great Artist or a Great Engineer and could probably list him again as a Great Scientist. Pythagoreas is both a Great Scientist and a Great Prophet, Ben Franklin both a Great Scientist and a Great Minister, and George Marshall both a Great General and a Great Minister, for examples.

3. Don't see the need to differentiate among Plagues. They all had the same primary characteristic in game terms: they spread fast and they killed people in large numbers. Everything else about them is minor in comparison.

4. Migration is an interesting 'mechanism' requiring a whole separate discussion. In addition to escaping from Disease, which may have caused a number of early cities to be temporarily abandoned, permanent or temporary flight from the cities to the countryside occurred from at least Classical to early Industrial times. This has to be combined with another, more political/diplomatic factor, though: if it was possible, people would frequently 'flee' or migrate to an entirely different civilization. There appears to have been steady migration both from pastoral/nomadic 'barbarian' groups into the cities, and from the urban populations back to the pastoral countryside. And, of course, this trend includes the massive Industrial/Modern Era migrations to the New World that took place from Europe and Asia - it was virtually all based on economic or political factors rather than health specifically, but was in sheer numbers far greater than anything that had happened before for any reason.
 
Avoiding negative effects can often be their own positive. What I don't like are random events coming out of the blue. So with that in mind, here are some ideas regarding plagues:

I few random ideas on how to make disease non-random:
When city is put under seige, the city and the units surrounding it are infected with disease.
Dark ages results in cities being infected by disease.
Plauge is 'random' but a player gets 1 (or more) avoid the plague chances. Once a civ experiences a plague they cannot be infected again. Plauges get worse the later in the game it gets.
Put 'plague points' with each trade route and every time you suzerain a city state.
 
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