[GS] Future Update?

[Boris Gudenuf]

I mentioned above that Plague Doctors (unlocked in the Medieval Era) could upgrade into the Medic in the Industrial and then into a Supply Convoy turning them into a Medical Support Unit class with the latter two also able to heal military units, like they currently do.

Two things help this formulation: first, military and civilian medicine had a lot of 'cross-over' from the Medieval Era on as they were dealing with many of the same diseases of over-crowding (either in a city or a military army encampment) or trauma and second, in virtually all military establishments after the Renaissance (first 'modern' armies in Europe in the 17th - 18th centuries, for example) medical support was administered by the same supply establishment that brought up supplies like food and ammunition. Complete militarization of both was amazingly long in coming (not until the late 18th and mid-19th centuries, depending on which army you study), but it means that Medical Support can be part of Military Supply and also Civilian Epidemic Control without stretching any of the terms too much.

An elegant solution, since, presumably, a Plague Mechanic in the game would also affect both military units and civilian 'population points'.

 

[steveg700]

You've got some very good ideas here, but since there isn't a prayer o them being part of a Winter Update, I think we're straying from the original point of the Thread. We may have to start a Suggested Major Revision Thread - as if we don't already have enough of those.

Yep, there is an Ideas & Suggestions forum which is the appropriate place for such discussions. Of course, for whatever reason there's only a sliver of the views you get here, so it's the kiss-of-death forum essentially, but there it is.

We definitely don't need the Paradox approach of introducing new systems while the existing game is left in need of tweaking.

Check the AI wonder spam, where a civ will be milling out every wonder it has the capacity to build, even when it needs to be attending to other needs.

Check the AI atacking city-states even when an ally is the suzerain.

Check the barb camps that can spawn units at the bleeding edge of technology, don't have to accrue strategic resources, and regenerate units instantly after destroyed.

Check all these crazy districting costs where I can't build a lousy harbor in the medieval era without it taking 25+ turns.

Check all the world council votes where all the civ's choose the same outcome, thus letting them push through votes that no amount of favor can block. Sick of having a Great Prophet embargo that I'm the only ones fighting against.

Stick to the essentials.

 

[Sostratus]

Check all these crazy districting costs where I can't build a lousy harbor in the medieval era without it taking 25+ turns.

I don't precisely know what it is, but I know there is some approach to adjust a few of the civ6 formulas and tech costs so that the game flows very smoothly and accommodates 'getting the harbor up on an island outpost' but also doesn't devolve to district spam. At this point they wouldn't change it, but at this late stage in the civ6 cycle I would be fascinated to hear how the devs feel the systems turned out. No product is perfect and I know they have opinions on what could have gone better.

 

[Karmah]

I don't precisely know what it is, but I know there is some approach to adjust a few of the civ6 formulas and tech costs so that the game flows very smoothly and accommodates 'getting the harbor up on an island outpost' but also doesn't devolve to district spam. At this point they wouldn't change it, but at this late stage in the civ6 cycle I would be fascinated to hear how the devs feel the systems turned out. No product is perfect and I know they have opinions on what could have gone better.

I don't see why the could not change it to something more fitting now that they have more data.

 

[oSiyeza]

Thank you - Your comments are much more detailed than my own, admittedly superficial characterization.

However, the actual effectiveness of the Plague Doctors was minimal when it came to saving lives. We can be pretty sure of this because the Medieval Bubonic Plague they are most associated with also struck in Central Asia, Eastern Europe and parts of Anatolia (and may have hit parts of China and India). Admittedly, exact data is hard to come by, but as near as we can tell the percentage of the population that the plague killed was higher in western Europe than anywhere else: up to 50% there and 30 - 40% everywhere else. Still catastrophic in game terms, but it indicates that the Plague Doctors did not save enough 'countless lives' to make a difference in the mortality rate from the plague.
The opinion now (subject to change with the next archeological dig!) is that the amount of crowding - city conditions - made more of a difference than any other single factor: as a result Central Asia to Mongolia, which may have been the origination point of the Plague, seems to have suffered less than anywhere else simply because urban concentrations were such a relatively small percentage of the total population there. The medieval cities of western Europe, India, China and the Middle East were, on the other hand, epidemics waiting to happen. Why Europe seems to have been hit somewhat worse than anywhere else is still not well understood (more accurately, being hotly debated with no consensus), but whatever the contributing factors were, the Plague Doctors were not enough to counteract them.

And herbal or pharmacological remedies were 'formalized' long before the Era we are referring to: as far back as 2700 BCE in China (first herbal 'recipe' books known) and Dioscorides' De Materia Medica, 5 volumes written between 50 - 70 CE compiling 'everything known' (at least in the Roman Empire) about herbal remedies, and the basis for virtually all subsequent Western and Arabic pharmacologies . In my compendium of Great Doctors, should they be added to the game, Pedanius Dioscorides would be a definite inclusion, representing the possible ameliorating effects of applied natural pharmacology.

I agree in most of what you said. I was not arguing that plague doctors did counter the plague, that did not happen. My point is that ancient medicine, including plague doctors cannot be just dismissed as ineffective.

I have to point also that your data is correct, Occident was hit much harder than India, China or Middle East, but your conclusions are not. The reasons why that was the case are indeed in debate, and the reasons why the plague stopped in Europe are also in debate. But here is the thing: we know that mortality in Europe was much higher than anywhere else; we know that the spread in Europe was much faster than anywhere else; we know that cold weather did not stop the plague in Europe, but it did everywhere else; we also know that in India, rat populations died by the millions before the rat parasites jumped to humans in significant numbers, and it was so noticeable that people learned to predict the plagues, that also never happened in Europe.

All in all, modern research discards the rats as the main vector in Europe and points to a fast human to human transmission that did not happen in Asia. So modern medicine points that the European plague was not exactly the same or was completely different than the endemic bubonic plague of India.

Also, among the contributing factors according to the experts on why the plague lost effectiveness in Europe with each new wave is, besides growing immunity and population factors, the effectiveness of quarantines in seaports.

In the end, nobody knows how effective the quarantine procedures were in saving lives. You say not much, I think it may have saved thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives. We don't know, but the truth is that even nowadays, when a new disease appears, we still use quarantine, cause it is still the best way to fight an unknown disease.

PS: I totally recommend watching "the hot zone", is a miniseries about an ebola outbreak that almost jumped to the US. One of the most interesting things about it are the small segments in Africa that show a bit of how the outbreaks were contained by local militia; how local medicine men and traditions were partly effective, but also served often to spread the disease; and how western christian missions caused by accident the death of entire populations. Is really scary stuff, and as far as I know, is a somewhat accurate depiction.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Thank you for the clarifications. I was not aware that they had tracked differences in the type of Plague hitting Europe versus India, which would go a long way towards explaining the different effects of the epidemics.

My 'quarantine' data comes from the first Official Government measure, adopted by Venice in 1403 CE (when they also invented the term 'quarantine' to describe the effective isolation of the city against disease). Geoffrey Parker's book Global Crisis includes considerable data on the effects, spread, and in some places disastrous consequences of the plagues that accompanied the climate and political disasters of the 15th - 17th centuries world wide - indicating, among other things, that the infamous Medieval Plague was by no means unique, nor even the most widespread set of disasters of the historic area.

And, of course, we are now living through another 'quarantine era' in respect to the Coronavirus outbreak, although so far, the measures being taken appear to be less than totally adequate (since the first US case of the disease was discovered less than 100 kilometers from my home!)

 

[Haig]

Today in Facebook the official Sid Meier's Civilization shows a picture of hall of fame from a player who has won with all the leaders.

Normal person in me: "Ok they are highlighting this to inspire players"

Civfanatic me: "Clearly they are teasing me by showing how the hall of fame has room for more leaders! Have they no shame?!"

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: If you want to discuss details of a Plague mechanic, please start a thread in Ideas and Suggestions. Back to topic please.

 

[Neirai]

Have they no shame?!"

I am pretty sure it has been established that Kevin has no shame.

 

[Disgustipated]

Today in Facebook the official Sid Meier's Civilization shows a picture of hall of fame from a player who has won with all the leaders.

Normal person in me: "Ok they are highlighting this to inspire players"

Finished my Chandragupta game last night, I only have one left to go. Latauro, he's one of my least liked, mainly because he's hard to use well. I'm undecided how I want to play him. I always play huge map, epic speed, so it took a while to finish.

And yes, there is space at the end of that list, but seeing it's the end of a list, theoretically there's infinite space.

 

[Socrates-]

Kinda new to this whole rumor-mongering-scene so I might be Captain Hindsight, but since there's a total of nine leaders missing to fill in the gap there 'must' be a expansion on the way right.. If I remember correctly both R&F and GS added nine new leaders to the game..

 

[nauberry]

Today in Facebook the official Sid Meier's Civilization shows a picture of hall of fame from a player who has won with all the leaders.

Normal person in me: "Ok they are highlighting this to inspire players"

Civfanatic me: "Clearly they are teasing me by showing how the hall of fame has room for more leaders! Have they no shame?!"

The orginal reddit post is already two months old. It makes you think, why are they posting it now?

 

[MrRadar]

, but since there's a total of nine leaders missing to fill in the gap there 'must' be a expansion on the way right.. If I remember correctly both R&F and GS added nine new leaders to the game..

On PC version HoF layout there are 9 leaders "missing". But on PS4, HoF layout looks like this on my TV:

Spoiler :

Only 6 leaders "missing". Make of it what you want.

Funnily enough, the iPad version HoF "misses" 9 leaders, like on PC, but on iPhone there are only 6 "missing", like on PS4.

It seems finding a common denominator for 11 and 13 is in order. Which is 11x13=143. So only when we have 143 leaders, those rows will be neatly aligned on all the platforms. I can't vouch for X-Box and Switch not throwing a wrench into these calculations though, can't check them.

So there we have, FXS have brought it on themselves - 143 expected leaders in total. I'm fine with this A DLC or expansion plan for 10 more years

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I only have one left to go. Latauro, he's one of my least liked, mainly because he's hard to use well. I'm undecided how I want to play him.

I had a fun game with him going religion. The GA attack bonus works with religious attacks too (or at least it still did when I played it). And hopefully you start near a bunch of mountains and other appeal areas so you can use your improvement.

 

[kaspergm]

So there we have, FXS have brought it on themselves - 143 expected leaders in total. I'm fine with this A DLC or expansion plan for 10 more years

I like your line of thinking, but tbh., while I'm all for another expansion for Civ6, which will hopefully bring it better up to its potential than its current state, after that I hope development will proceed towards Civ7. Civ6 has too many inherent flaws to be sustained for another 10 years imo.

 

[CPWimmer]

(Post below is from December 15th...)

Looking at the historic release pattern for Civ 6, I would now predict that we won't get a patch until roughly the 2nd week of February. They have never released in January (nor in November/December excluding the first 2 months of the product's life-cycle).

In general, January software releases are hard due to the pre-work falling in the holiday season when many people are on vacation.

I am a bit fuzzier about an XP 3 announcement. I fully expected one in mid-late November as they did for the first 2 XP's. I still feel strongly that there will be an XP 3, but I am somewhat uncertain about the announcement date. A Feb. announcement (to go along with the patch release) does seem likely at this point.

Crossing my fingers for some kind of news starting today or as late as next Thursday...

 

[AntSou]

On PC version HoF layout there are 9 leaders "missing". But on PS4, HoF layout looks like this on my TV:

Spoiler :

Only 6 leaders "missing". Make of it what you want.

Funnily enough, the iPad version HoF "misses" 9 leaders, like on PC, but on iPhone there are only 6 "missing", like on PS4.

It seems finding a common denominator for 11 and 13 is in order. Which is 11x13=143. So only when we have 143 leaders, those rows will be neatly aligned on all the platforms. I can't vouch for X-Box and Switch not throwing a wrench into these calculations though, can't check them.

So there we have, FXS have brought it on themselves - 143 expected leaders in total. I'm fine with this A DLC or expansion plan for 10 more years

You know that scene where the Mountain just offhandedly murders Qyburn as if he were nothing but an afterthought? Like swatting a fly?

That's what you just did.

Hopefuls: "There's nine spots left in the hall of fame! It means 3rd ex..."

MrRadar: *Curbs your enthusiasm*
---

Tbh I don't have much enthusiasm left to be curbed, but still... like beating a dead horse.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Tbh I don't have much enthusiasm left to be curbed, but still... like beating a dead horse.

Look on the Bright Side: Beating a dead horse tenderizes the meat . . .

 

[RohirrimElf]

No news today. Another pointless filler

 

[MrRadar]

Tbh I don't have much enthusiasm left to be curbed, but still... like beating a dead horse.

Sorry! I'll try to uncurb it with this inspirational quote:
“Let's think the unthinkable (meaning: let's think 3rd expansion is still coming), let's do the undoable (continue to wait patiently and hope for it). Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.”
Not sure how to interpret the last part, so in short: “Don't Panic.”