G-Major 144

[Sun Tzu Wu]

That's very old-school. True, it would be enough to 'win decisively' any game, but only optimal for a conquest or maybe domination. It's the not currently how the fast score, diplo, religous, culture, and space games are being played by the top players using Inca. Maybe you can revive that old strategy and show a successful opening with it. You never know when the currently accepted 'best' way becomes obsolete with new ideas.

I meant to describe only how to REX a nice number of cities from the AIs using Quechuas. There is nothing in my description that implies that the victory must be conquest or domination.

Why would top players even want to play using the Inca Empire? Inca should be banned completely, not just for EQM and almost all gauntlets (this one excepted). A lot of other players share this opinion; I'm not alone in espousing it.

So what do you do in REX stage of an Inca start that is different than what I described? Do you let the capital grow? Do you research other techs first? What makes your Inca REX so innovative? You are critical of my description of Inca early REX, yet offer nothing of what you would do differently.

 

[Pangaea]

If I play, my goal would be 10 Million. In that case, the Arid bonus is ~250,000.

Roughly when would you need to trigger domination to get such a score as that? Naturally population growth plays a big role here, but are we talking 500AD, 1000AD, 1500AD?

 

[WastinTime]

Roughly when would you need to trigger domination to get such a score as that? Naturally population growth plays a big role here, but are we talking 500AD, 1000AD, 1500AD?

~400 AD

update: ended up being 600 AD because of Huge map

 

[WastinTime]

I meant to describe only how to REX a nice number of cities from the AIs using Quechuas. There is nothing in my description that implies that the victory must be conquest or domination.

I didn't want readers to be led to believe they should do the REX you described. IMO, that opening is not appropriate for this game.
Describing that 5-6 hammer start does imply you're going for a game like conquest/dom even if you didn't realize where that strategy applies. After all, you've been on hiatus for a while.

 

[WastinTime]

So what do you do in REX stage of an Inca start that is different than what I described? Do you let the capital grow? Do you research other techs first? What makes your Inca REX so innovative? You are critical of my description of Inca early REX, yet offer nothing of what you would do differently.

You should familiarize yourself with Seraiel's compilation of writeups. It's probably new since you played last.

To find specific info, Google is your friend. My strategy is well documented. From 2012, Inca Rush

 

[cseanny]

I certainly won't be playing (Huge and Marathon 2 big nono's in my book) however, I'll be watching with at least a little curiosity. I know very few people play these settings but its still interesting to see how a non traditional game set-up plays out!!

 

[Seraiel]

Wouldn't Joao be a good choice too? Prefers HR, which you'll run unless you build/capture the Mids early, doesn't declare at Pleased, techs pretty well, and isn't too averse to trading either. Willem and Zara might be two other choices. Otherwise it's the usual suspects

In this game you won't accept not getting the Mids. Incans are also in the very special situation that they are able to dominate the game from 2000BC onwards at latest. If you really want, you can build all World Wonders with Incans that you could only dream of playing a normal leader. Oracle + Mids + GLH is almost impossible normally, but from my current perspective I'd think that I'd not even continue a game in which I don't get that three.

And Joao has the disadvantage that he's a neutral AI. Those are generally much stronger because they aren't hated by any side so they trade with both. Zara has the disadvantage that he's basically "the worse Mansa" , he trades 'til annoyed so there's basically nothing except war that will stop him and he's again neutral so will trade with both sides. I thought about Willem but again, neutral. It's a great advantage to have two clear sides in this game and to focus the hate on two AIs (Gandhi + Brennus) so that you can be the one standing between them and choosing freely .

Hamm has some things I like, but don't forget about his UU, bowmen.

I considered the Bowman. My final choice was between Ramesses and Hammurabi and it was just my rational HoF-style sort of thinking that I'd prefer a game in which I'd i. e. know that "I cannot attack this neighbouring AI because it's simply not possible" , then to i. e. have a higher risk losing the MoM and that 1000y later. Basically they're both antagonists, Hammu is bad when he starts close, Ramesses is bad when he's far away ^^ . The advantage of Ramesses definitely is, that he won't trade away the techs one trades to him easily but onesself can easily get him to friendly, but Hammu has the advantage that he can be super-easily bribed and used as a pet ^^ . Between those two I personally think it's only free choice, take Willem or Zara if you want, it's just a matter of how you'll deal with them.

 

[Seraiel]

I like Willem van Oranje as a good technology trade partner. He is almost as good as Mansa Musa.

With a starting Civilization of Inca and its unique unit, the Quechua, I hardly think anyone would consider the winner of this gauntlet as the best Civ IV player ever. Inca is banned from EQM and normally banned in gauntlets, because of its overpowered unique unit; inca also has an awesome unique building and an excellent pair of traits, arguably the best pair of traits available. If the winner of this gauntlet beats the current overall Score record, the best one can say is he has the best overall Score starting with the Inca Empire and Marathon Speed (both qualifications required). He is definitely not the best Civ IV player ever. Sorry, Seraiel.

To win decisively with Inca on Marathon, all you need is close neighbors on a reasonably large land mass and a 5-6 hammer city at Population 1. As you capture early cities with Quechuas and beeline Bronze Working for Slavery to build more Quechuas and add Axemen to the mix when you find Copper near a captured city. Beeline pottery next to built cottages to finance the empire.

Doing the same peacefully with other Civs requires building several 300H Settlers, a very costly, time consuming peaceful strategy.

Doing the same militarily with non-Inca Civs, also requires easy access to the appropriate strategic resource, researching The Wheel and Animal Husbandry and Horseback Riding or Bronze Working or Iron Working and building all the necessary infrastructure to actually build more expensive (than quenchuas) chariots, war chariots, immortals, horse archers, axemen, vultures, swordsman, praetorians or other early unique units. By the time a nice stack of such units is completed, the AI has built more archers and maybe even found his own strategic resources and built units that require them. Warfare has just gotten a lot more complex and costly than just spamming Quechuas from any newly captured city in a limited (by the economy) geometric progression.

NP about disagreeing with me STW . I don't fully understand your argumentation though. The player that wins this Gauntlet isn't the best imo. because of the good date or the highest score, I just think that the competition has never been that hard, that difficult or that the task to complete was more complex. Incans make the opening of the game a little easier in that sort, that it's easier to gain enough cities, that it's easier to get certain WWs, the harshness of the competition and the task however is very high. Oracle Currency is an absolute must in this Gauntlet, but will someone that oracles Currency even have a chance against a player that oracles Civil Service? Oracle Civil Service on Deity, that's not impossible with Incans, but who'll have the patience to play so many openings that he suceeds with that once? And will that gain him a higher advantage than another player will have with his 3 Golds start? Or the next player that won 3 20% fights with the early Checkers? Or the one that stole 5 Workers from the AI? (I think you understand what I mean now. )
Reaching Sushi at somewhere around 500-300BC is a very very difficult task, it'd be an almost impossible mission with all other civs, with Incans it's possible, but 500-300BC? And conquering 50 cities 'til then? And coordinating several builds like Oxford, Mids, GLH, MoM, TM etc. etc. etc. ? + having the endurance to settle and manage 200 cities afterwards? Galleon-chains? Triggering Domination just at the right point? There are so many tasks that this round has that are all non-standard so even WastinTime and me who played several games like this already will be confronted with several decisions in which we don't have all knowledge that we need and and in which we'll need to find the best and fastest way or imagine the most accurate picture of the situation.

Regarding your strategy:

It's more important to gain as much from the AIs as possible and focus on tech-rate. If you conquer 3 civs in the minimum time and have no golds, then you won't be able to oracle Currency (and not even remotely CS) . Let the AIs grow a little so you can capture more Workers from them, that their cities are bigger, that you don't suffer the big economical hit early and skip as many techs as possible, even Pottery etc. . Incas can conquer so many cities so early that they need to pay attention to not conquer them too early because they seriously can go financially broke before reaching Alpha. Bronze Working I'd also not reasearch, way too many , better get Maths to unlock Currency or Alpha to trade techs and see how far the other AIs are, if maybe none has Priesthood yet or if one can trade for it. The start doesn't need 5 or 6 necessarily at size 1, 4-5 at size 2 is ok and one has that time, more important that the first 3 AIs didn't start with BFC-Horses or find BW in a hut, that they don't beeline BW, that they build 2 Workers, that Asoka doesn't sit at the end of the map and builds Oracle 2400 BC leaving the player with no chance, hope the nearest enemies are Frederick, Lincoln and Gandhi so that there's little resistence and to get a holy city, + Frederick likes to build the Mids early, maybe let him live and wait for them?

This game is really not "build 20 Checkers, faceroll, write lolwut" ^^ . Who gets the best map and who makes the best 150 moves (that's 2000BC on Marathon) will have a decisive advantage, but Mansa researching Philosophy later so one can trade it from him might give a player a chance that didn't get the best map . This game is a series of very difficult challenges, a lot of luck and I'm almost certain that there'll join several players with very unique strengths and who're very strong overall if the Gauntlet gets announced properly and if it lasts 6 months. I so wished kossin would still play, but from the last BOTM's I know that Pollina and Jastrow actually can give me a really hard time ^^ .

 

[WastinTime]

Voting again for 6 months. Please

 

[Seraiel]

Voting again for 6 months. Please

Yes, gif us 6 months plzzzzzzzz!!!!!!1111

 

[Seraiel]

@ WastinTime:

Regarding Arid / Temperate: I regard Arid to have the advantage not with Farms where are deserts but with being able to avoid large parts of the map which are desert and have Floodplains on the rest of the map. But as you mentioned that the bonus is really only so small, what would you think of Tropical? That map has completely green areas almost everywhere, almost no Tundra-zone...

 

[WastinTime]

problem with floodplains is if you use them for a city, then Sushi will expand borders far into useless desert. The desert is really everywhere on Huge maps.

Tropical: I don't want cities in the jungle. I don't want to chop all that jungle. Does tropical have less forests? I would think so.

 

[Pangaea]

Tropical doesn't have less forests, actually. I checked a while back. There is more jungle, but about same amount of forests, and much less ice and tundra. Perhaps because the colder regions get more trees.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I didn't want readers to be led to believe they should do the REX you described. IMO, that opening is not appropriate for this game.
Describing that 5-6 hammer start does imply you're going for a game like conquest/dom even if you didn't realize where that strategy applies. After all, you've been on hiatus for a while.

Of course I described Inca REX in the tradition way with a 5-6 hammer start at Population 1, because that will generate enough Quechuas for a successful rush. It takes more skill to pull off a Quechua rush while growing or after growing the capital at bit. The Quechua rush must be completed before the target AIs have AH and Horses or BW and Copper.

After the Quechua rush with Cuzco at Pop 1, it can start grow after the initial wave of Quechuas are built and it can still be suitable for a Score game, especially with strong food, commerce (typically gold or gems), forests and cottageable (flat grassland and floodplain) tiles in the BFC. There are many paths to a #1 Score game. For this gauntlet, I would build 3-4 Quechuas very fast to explore in all directions and Worker steal and maybe capture a close AI city with good land and grow the capital after those initial Quechua builds.

You are right that researching BW early is usually not appropriate for Score games. Mining -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing is more appropriate followed by Mathematics or a beeline to Code of Laws to Oracle either Currency or Civil Service.

I have been gone 18 months, but frankly not much has been learned about Civ IV while I have been gone. The real problem has been how much I have forgotten and must now relearn. Thankfully, that relearning process has progressed very quickly in my first HOF Espionage Assisted Cultural Victory, which I completed only yesterday for G-minor 208.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

You should familiarize yourself with Seraiel's compilation of writeups. It's probably new since you played last.

To find specific info, Google is your friend. My strategy is well documented. From 2012, Inca Rush

Thank you WastinTime for these two useful links. I have actually read the first thread by Seraiel several weeks ago and it does indeed gather up a lot of HoF knowledge that can be extremely useful when playing many type types of HoF games. I also started rereading the second link; it is extremely useful in understanding how one would credibly compete in this gauntlet. Thank you for sharing it back then and now!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

NP about disagreeing with me STW . I don't fully understand your argumentation though. The player that wins this Gauntlet isn't the best imo. because of the good date or the highest score, I just think that the competition has never been that hard, that difficult or that the task to complete was more complex. Incans make the opening of the game a little easier in that sort, that it's easier to gain enough cities, that it's easier to get certain WWs, the harshness of the competition and the task however is very high. Oracle Currency is an absolute must in this Gauntlet, but will someone that oracles Currency even have a chance against a player that oracles Civil Service? Oracle Civil Service on Deity, that's not impossible with Incans, but who'll have the patience to play so many openings that he suceeds with that once? And will that gain him a higher advantage than another player will have with his 3 Golds start? Or the next player that won 3 20% fights with the early Checkers? Or the one that stole 5 Workers from the AI? (I think you understand what I mean now. )
Reaching Sushi at somewhere around 500-300BC is a very very difficult task, it'd be an almost impossible mission with all other civs, with Incans it's possible, but 500-300BC? And conquering 50 cities 'til then? And coordinating several builds like Oxford, Mids, GLH, MoM, TM etc. etc. etc. ? + having the endurance to settle and manage 200 cities afterwards? Galleon-chains? Triggering Domination just at the right point? There are so many tasks that this round has that are all non-standard so even WastinTime and me who played several games like this already will be confronted with several decisions in which we don't have all knowledge that we need and and in which we'll need to find the best and fastest way or imagine the most accurate picture of the situation.

Regarding your strategy:

It's more important to gain as much from the AIs as possible and focus on tech-rate. If you conquer 3 civs in the minimum time and have no golds, then you won't be able to oracle Currency (and not even remotely CS) . Let the AIs grow a little so you can capture more Workers from them, that their cities are bigger, that you don't suffer the big economical hit early and skip as many techs as possible, even Pottery etc. . Incas can conquer so many cities so early that they need to pay attention to not conquer them too early because they seriously can go financially broke before reaching Alpha. Bronze Working I'd also not reasearch, way too many , better get Maths to unlock Currency or Alpha to trade techs and see how far the other AIs are, if maybe none has Priesthood yet or if one can trade for it. The start doesn't need 5 or 6 necessarily at size 1, 4-5 at size 2 is ok and one has that time, more important that the first 3 AIs didn't start with BFC-Horses or find BW in a hut, that they don't beeline BW, that they build 2 Workers, that Asoka doesn't sit at the end of the map and builds Oracle 2400 BC leaving the player with no chance, hope the nearest enemies are Frederick, Lincoln and Gandhi so that there's little resistence and to get a holy city, + Frederick likes to build the Mids early, maybe let him live and wait for them?

This game is really not "build 20 Checkers, faceroll, write lolwut" ^^ . Who gets the best map and who makes the best 150 moves (that's 2000BC on Marathon) will have a decisive advantage, but Mansa researching Philosophy later so one can trade it from him might give a player a chance that didn't get the best map . This game is a series of very difficult challenges, a lot of luck and I'm almost certain that there'll join several players with very unique strengths and who're very strong overall if the Gauntlet gets announced properly and if it lasts 6 months. I so wished kossin would still play, but from the last BOTM's I know that Pollina and Jastrow actually can give me a really hard time ^^ .

Seraiel, thank you for this awesome response! You are a true friend and very helpful to your fellow HoFers, xOTM and S&T players alike. Your "The Hall of Players" thread has really drawn helpful responses from players in all these areas of Civ IV Civfanatics! Extremely well done!

 

[WastinTime]

You are right that researching BW early is usually not appropriate for Score games.

Did I say that? I'm sure I did, but when did I say that? Cus I have learned a lot in the last 18 months and now I'm considering BW. It is torture waiting for an AI to get Alpha and BW.

 

[Seraiel]

Seraiel, thank you for this awesome response! You are a true friend and very helpful to your fellow HoFers, xOTM and S&T players alike. Your "The Hall of Players" thread has really drawn helpful responses from players in all these areas of Civ IV Civfanatics! Extremely well done!

Thx STW, those words really go to the heart .

 

[WastinTime]

1. Mansa (no-brainer)
2. Asoka (don't like that choice because of his high wonder-build-rate but didn't find any better one)
3. Brennus (the common hate-target for all good civs because of his ultra-low peaceweight, this allows to trade with the other bad AIs without fearing negative diplo from worst enemy)
4. Boudica (new choice from me, didn't play with her yet, thought about Louis first but Boudica seems better)
5. De Gaulle (very common choice for a bad AI because he's such a weakling and also builds only few wonders)
6. Darius (economically good AI so one can trade gold from him and he techs quite acceptable)
7. Elizabeth (very good techer, builds only cery few units, also builds gold)
8. Frederick (my favourite opponent because he's just the weakest of all good AIs )
9. Gandhi (the common hate-target for all bad-AIs, also has the lowest unit-build-rate and one doesn't need to fear negative diplo from denying his demands)
10. Hatty (I just like her, CRE may not be ideal but it's easy to get her to friendly, she builds only few units and she spreads religion well)
11. Hamurabi (didn't like that choice, alternative would have been Ramesses or Willem, with 17 opponents one simply needs to choose a few that one won't like 100%)
12. Lincoln (I don't like that he likes to go for Education early because of his flavours but he's still one of the best opponents possible because he's so weak)
13. Pericles (good techer, easy to trade with, not ideal because of CRE but overall still good AI imo. )
14. Peter (best teching bad-AI, also easy to trade with)
15. Roosevelt (again very weak)
16. Victoria (good techer, builds Gold, I see her being IMP a little critical but still better than i. e. Hammu)
17. Washington (weak, not perfect but ok)

I'm thinking I'd scratch:
Brennus : might build too many units
Boudica : same
Hamm : bowmen
Maybe cut Asoka for his Oracle tendency

Add:
Joao : I like his usual tech choices.

Considering:
Cyrus: I used to love him in Vanilla Civ. Why not him?
Suleiman
Pacal : can bulid "spearmen" w/o metal
Justinian
Ramesses - IND
Augustus - IND
Wilem (thx STW): don't like CRE, but ok

I normally play with Isabella since she won't get horses or metals very fast, but on Huge, it's not likely enough she'll be next to me and she'll just get Oracle.

Got any problems with those 6? I like the AIs with IMP (more settlers)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Am I the only player that likes Willem van Oranje as an opponent? He will trade techs when only one other AI has the tech. It is good to not be dependent on Mansa Musa for tech trading or to need to improve relations to friendly for other AIs for the same purpose as that can take a while.